Hi, I am a betrayed husband, 3 months since D-Day (recovery is going ok although I still struggle with trust) and would like your opinion on something. My question is "After an A, what is appropriate contact/conduct for spouses to have with adults of the opposite sex?". Since I am the BS whose WW met other men during Internet gaming and wound up crossing the line a few months later into Chat Room sex and occasional phone sex with them (I have posted before under Just Found Out), my position is that my W should not have anything more than an "acquaintance" relationship with any man but me from now on, regardless of whether it is on Internet or in person, and that I should do the same with other women (I have always done this). By acquaintance, I mean no sharing beyond the superficial level for the most part. It makes sense to me that the more familiar we become with adults of the opposite sex, the more chance there is to open up to them and share feelings with them that God meant exclusively for our spouse, and it can sometimes lead down the slippery slope to more familiarity and friendship, and eventually into transfering feelings from our spouse to the other individual and then finally crossing the line into sexual intimacy. I don't mind my W having as many friendships as she wants with girlfriends who believe in the sanctity of marriage - I just don't want her to put herself in a position to become involved with another man again. Am I asking too much? I just wanted your opinion on this, especially those who have gone or are going through this issue.

Good question. I believe the general consensus on this forum is that opposite-sex friendships are strictly tabu.

I am a FWW who had an EA, mostly online and phone (NO cybersex or phone sex AT ALL,btw.)

Having the EA has changed my perspective on this issue. I work in a male-dominated profession and have always had great male friends. My husband,conversely,works in a female-dominated profession and has always had great female friends.

This had never been a problem for either of us before the EA.

Now,I find myself retreating from any but the most superficial contact with even my dear male friends. I will definitely never again open myself up to a relationship with another man again,because my EA really did start as an innocent friendship.

However,one thing bugs me. My husband e-mails and phones back and forth with a former co-worker who has moved away. She is female,and they consider themselves dear friends. (He is also friends with her husband,but not as close.) My husband has purposely backed off from the frequency of his e-mails and phone calls to her since the discovery of my EA, but the relationship still exists.

This bugs me. Because *I* am the guilty party,the one who screwed up,I have to forego all my friendships with men. Ok...fine. But he doesn't have to give up his closest friendship with another woman?

Am I wrong that it bugs me? I even got my H to admit recently that this woman probably has an "emotional attachment" to him...but he insists it would NEVER reach the proportions that my EA did. (She and her own husband SEEM to have a great,healthy marriage,and she also likes me very much.)

I tried to tell him that it usually starts our very innocently.

Hope I didn't hijack your thread,Lions...maybe people can comment on both your situation and mine.

Thanks for the reply, Sincere1. I definitely agree with you that both spouses should adhere to the same agreement about appropriate conduct with the opposite sex or else it would be a double standard. I came close myself one time a few years ago to an EA (she was a co-worker divorced woman who took walks with me at lunch; she was a fellow Christian and had similar interests but was giving me signals she was open to more than just friendship after awhile). I quit taking walks with her when I sensed it was starting to get more involved than just friendship. Before I stopped taking walks with her I prayed about it and told my wife, who agreed I should stop so I did. I have only had acquaintances with other women since that time since I realized I had been inadvertently playing with fire and had almost gotten burned by it.

Hi lions1957,

Dr. Shirley Glass has a great book on this topic, "Not Just Friends." She has a website too.

I agree opposite sex friendships are tabu, no matter if you are BS or WS. My H's "friendship" with the ow is why I am posting on this board today.

There is something very strong and fulfilling about triumphs and sorrows shared in the workplace. Those shared feelings can quickly blossom into full blown affairs.

IMVHO,
landslide

Hi Landslide. I will try to get the book. Would you be able to summarize its main point for me?

lions 1957,

Dr. Glass' book goes into a "walls and windows" theory. Windows are for home, marriage, family.
Walls keep out those who even "innocently" at first may be a threat to the marriage.

She says, "Infidelity is not only about love or sex-it's about maintaining appropriate boundaries w/ others."

I love that "appropriate boundaries." Something my WH does not understand or believe.

This might help too. It's from her website, www.shirleyglass.com.

Seven Tips for Preventing Infidelity

1. Maintain appropriate walls and windows. Keep the windows open at home. Put up privacy walls with others who could threaten your marriage.

2.Recognize that work can be a danger zone. Don't lunch alone or take coffee breaks with the same person all the time. When you travel with a co-worker, meet in public rooms, not in a room with a bed.

3.Avoid emotional intimacy with attractive alternatives to your committed relationship. Resist the desire to rescue an unhappy soul who pours his or her heart out to you.

4.Protect your marriage by discussing relationship issues at home. If you do need to talk to someone else about your marriage, be sure that person is a friend of the marriage. If the friend disparages marriage, respond with something positive about your own relationship.

5. Keep old flames from re-igniting. If a former lover is coming to the class reunion, invite your partner to come along. If you value your marriage, think twice about having lunch with an old flame.

6. Don't go over the line when you're On-Line with Internet friends. Discuss your online friendships with your partner and show him/her your e-mail if he/she is interested. Invite your partner to join in your correspondence so your Internet friend won't get any wrong ideas. Don't exchange sexual fantasies online.

7. Make sure your social network is supportive of your marriage. Surround yourself with friends who are happily married and who don't believe in fooling around.

Hope this helps. It's not anything my WS was interested in knowing.

He has NC, but doesn't understand how vunerable he is. What I don't get is why some people are so easily entangled in this and others aren't. No doubt we have all had ample opportunities to betray our spouses. We chose not to.

In my prayers,
landslide

me(43)BS / H(48)
married 23 yrs.
dday 1 12/94
dday 2 3/02 EAs admitted to only?
recovering? alone

Thanks for the tips, Landslide. I especially relate to item 6, because that is what happened to my WW. She crossed over the line with a few of her male Internet "friends". She has maintained NC since D-Day but in part it was due to me disconnecting (with her reluctant compliance) our home Internet service. I don't know when/if we will ever get it back because it still is a source of many bad memories for me. She was addicted to her Internet world and got caught up in it after she met some male friends (I call them predators) while gaming, and over time, gave in to them sexually over the Internet and phone (no PA). I am sorry to hear what you are going through with your WS. I hope and pray he comes around soon and will agree to "appropriate boundaries" in the future.

lions 1957,
You're welcome. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Keep us posted on your progress.

In my prayers,
landslide

MINIMAL

Hi Lions, You stated it very well with...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It makes sense to me that the more familiar we become with adults of the opposite sex, the more chance there is to open up to them and share feelings with them that God meant exclusively for our spouse, and it can sometimes lead down the slippery slope to more familiarity and friendship, and eventually into transfering feelings from our spouse to the other individual and then finally crossing the line into sexual intimacy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is how my H started his A with a coworker. It happens with many others in the work place and other areas of life.A coworker and good,Christian friend of my H counseled with H after the A.My H said that he would just remain friends with the OW.The friend told him that it was not even an option as....
#1. They had been in an A and should have NO contact ever again.
#2. When people of the opposite sex become close friends, most often,the female takes on emotional feelings and the male takes on sexual feelings.
Of course it can happen in the reverse as well. We both know what happens after that as we are BS's.You are right to have a problem with your FWS having male friends.
I haven't read your other posts yet but I hope that you are blessed with a wonderful and successful recovery.I highly recommend the reading on the Shirley Glass site.Very informative. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> A coworker and good,Christian friend of my H counseled with H after the A </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That was a MALE friend that counseled with him,BTW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks, Kings. I think the consensus is that contact with adults of the opposite sex
should be kept at the "acquaintance" and superficial level. I needed to hear this to ensure I had not become paranoid, because to me it just makes common sense that it should be this way both from a practical and biblical standpoint. My FWW told me she will abide by this rule, but I can tell she considers it extreme punishment rather than common sense.

OK Lions - hope I don't upset you or indeed anyone else as that's not my intention.

My personal belief is that each person has to set the boundaries themselves.

My W has many very close male friends but it is interesting to note that none of these friendships has ever worried me the way that her friendship with OM did. I knew right from the start that there was something different about it that I was very uncomfortable with. I know however that her (existing) close friendships with other males are just friendships.

One exBF was an usher at out wedding - he is a good friend of both of ours though we don't see him very much. Another exBF (from many, many years before we met) gave her away at our wedding. He and his GF are two of our closest friends and he has been championing our M to my W.

So I agree that in a marriage both spouses need to keep a very close eye on the level of friendships that the other has. Absolutely. And my advice is to go with your gut feeling - you also have to decide what you are willing to accept of course.

But to come back to my first point. You said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My FWW told me she will abide by this rule, but I can tell she considers it extreme punishment rather than common sense. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would respectfully suggest you and your FWW need to sit down and honestly discuss what and why you are willing to accept and both need as a regards this issue. Because if your FWW feels that you are imposing this on her (as a punishment) she is going to resent it - even if in her heart she knows it is wise - and that may cause a big stumbling block.

Good luck - I'm sure you and your FWW can work it out.
bowd

I apologize for this being so long.I am beginning to open up and share a lot more with others lately in hopes of helping them avoid some of the difficulties I have faced.This is all from my heart with the best of intentions.

I used to have a more open opinion of having friends of the opposite sex.I honestly had more male friends during my single years than female friends.I must now admit,for the first time to anyone, that during the years of our friendships all but one said or did something in some way to hint or come straight forward with interest of sexual behaviors.I just ignored it or feeling flattered but not really taking it serious,made some comment to let them know that I was not interested or that it was not wise to be interested in anything sexual in any way.If they talked about their W or GF in a manner that was not favorable,I listened. Sometimes even commented that I felt empathy for them not even hearing the other side of the story.Now I would certainly handle things differently.

Bowd, You do not upset me at all with a differing opinion. I am not saying that you are wrong in any way.Just some words of caution from an old fools advice bank.I agree whole heartedly with the statements below.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My personal belief is that each person has to set the boundaries themselves
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">..my FWS failed to do so.......The MC and the IC we talked with say it is not a good idea.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My W has many very close male friends but it is interesting to note that none of these friendships has ever worried me the way that her friendship with OM did. I knew right from the start that there was something different about it that I was very uncomfortable with. I know however that her (existing) close friendships with other males are just friendships.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H was "close friends" with the person that became the OW and I have never seen or met her. Funny thing.He has always talked to me about his work,job,and coworkers to the point that I feel I know as much about it as he does and feel that I know many of the people that I have not even met,but I do not recall that he ever mentioned the friend/OW to me.His first statement on DDay#1 was "we have been "good friends" for years. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I can talk to her.
It's amazing,that he said he could talk to her as his excuse,that I know so much about him,his job,his likes and dislikes,favorite things,all about how to fish for Bass,crappie,bream and sauger,can tell you how to look for and find deer tracks,scrapings,rubs,what his favorite child hood memories are,how to run out a rabbit,to aim ahead of the birds,what makes him laugh out loud,what makes him sad,cry,what his favorite movie is,who his uncles and aunts,cousins and neighborhood friends were,what pleases him sexually,what his hang ups are,his talents,short comings,his favorite places to go,what it was like going and serving in Vietnam,the names of the battles and where,what dates or at time of year they were fought,which officers favored him and which ones hated him,what embarrasses him,what his convictions are on religion,his most intimate secrets,fears,longings,dreams,regrets,the excitement of the birth of his children(from a previous M),the age they started walking,talking,his most memorable moments with them,what their grades were in high school,why they dropped out of college,how they make him proud or disappoint him,his fondest memories of his dad,his problems dealing with a demanding,dominating mother(deceased),how she took every dime of the money he earned on his paper route for 4 years,never loved or slept with his dad after dad had an A when H was 2 years old,his views on politics and on and on. I listened,cried with him,soothed,loved,cared,validated,supported,encouraged,did everything humanly possible to help build his self esteem,confidence,manhood,honored him,respected,trusted him 100% and defended him,prayed for and with him,was faithful to him and forgave him for all failures and short comings,never complained when he lost his job and we struggled to meet our needs for over a year,giving him the most to make it on and silently doing without myself,never demanding to know what he did with his inheritence of over 20,000.00 that disappeared(it was his,not mine).

Doesn't it sound like he had someone at home he could talk to? With a close female friend like that for 12 years, why did he need another one?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> #2. When people of the opposite sex become close friends, most often,the female takes on emotional feelings and the male takes on sexual feelings. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never realized it or faced it until the male coworker/friend of H said this.I was humbled.I have always been a strong person and set boundries pretty good or so I thought.I am regretful of some of the things that I shared in in my single years now.I have made no close male friends since I married my H except for a gay male neighbor who has been a friend to both of us.I wanted and was satisfied with my H being my close friend.
Lions,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the consensus is that contact with adults of the opposite sex
should be kept at the "acquaintance" and superficial level. I needed to hear this to ensure I had not become paranoid, because to me it just makes common sense that it should be this way both from a practical and biblical standpoint.]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are not paranoid and the being practical and bibical will be great healing and building tools.God does not lie so it sounds like the way to go for me.
][/QUOTE] My FWW told me she will abide by this rule, but I can tell she considers it extreme punishment rather than common sense. [/QUOTE]
It's called being in the fog. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> It will clear with time and recovery.

I was wrong in my single years.I enjoyed the attention and the friendship so I passed it off and made it all right in my mind.I hope this will help give you insight into a future situation that can be avoided if possible.I only share it to help if possible. Please do not take any part of it as being critical or rude in any way.Thank you for allowing me to be a part of this subject. :)Wishing for you the best in your recovery and healing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ February 14, 2003, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: kings kid ]</small>

Thanks Kings Kid - I appreciate your insight.

You know, this thread is exactly what I love about the MB forum - people able to learn from one anothers experiences, hold differing viewpoints and express them respectfully without those who disagree feeling it is a personal attack or hitting back...

hmm - sure there is a paralell there with life and M <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks for replies, especially yours, Kings Kid. I can tell you are a very wise and mature lady, and I'm amazed at how well in depth you know your husband . My W knows me inside and out like that too, except unfortunately I think she had gotten to know the former OM almost on a similar level by some of the details she told me about him. I totally agree with your points #1 and #2 and appreciate your advice very much, and the reassurance I'm not paranoid about wanting my W not to be in a position to be susceptible to a relationship with another man again. To Bowd, I respectfully disagree with your point that each person should set boundaries for themselves, or at least in my case that philosophy proved not to work out. I appreciate your thoughts though and respect them - it got me to thinking... My W had problems all her life with boundaries with males ever since she was sexually abused by her father and older brother as a little girl so she admits she is incapable of setting her own boundaries. Her friendships with her OMen began innocently enough as "partners" playing cards on the Internet and developed over time into much more intimate relationships than that. When I asked her what made her cross the line, she just says "I got caught up into it and was over my head before I knew it. I really don't know why...". Since she still doesn't know why (or won't tell me) I especially don't want her to become vulnerable again. She has always had lots of friends (both female and male) for most of her life, and many people are drawn to her outgoing friendly personality and funny sense of humor (some of her friends says she has a personality like Lucy on the old 'I love Lucy' shows). In her case, she said these OMen on the Internet flattered her (which I admittedly wasn't doing at the time) <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> and she got the attention she was not getting at home. Don't know if it makes a difference but the Omen were divorced and were real good at knowing how to get what they wanted from her. I am doing my best to provide her all the love and attention she needs now on a regular basis and plan to for the rest of my life. I guess she is going through a little bit of withdrawl and may still be a little in the fog like Kings Kid says. We talked last night after my post and I think I might have previously misread her feelings. She clarified she is not resentful of the new rule - she just is going through an adjustment phase and says she thought it was a little excessive at first but realizes it is for her own good and the good of our M.

<small>[ February 14, 2003, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: lions1957 ]</small>

Lions and Bowd, Thank you for the compliment.I am just older and wiser.Been through a lot and traveled a lot of roads in life.I am a blessed person and love to share with others especially when it might help to relieve their pain,fears,doubts or problems.I sincerely care about people and their struggles in life.It was good relief therapy for me to bare my heart,soul and story with you.

I have learned to set many boundries but still am learning every day.It has truly made my day(Valentine's Day is one of my very worst trigger days)to read your replies to me and to know that something I have said helped you in some way.Now that is great therapy for me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

One thing here...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I asked her what made her cross the line, she just says "I got caught up into it and was over my head before I knew it. I really don't know why...". Since she still doesn't know why (or won't tell me) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This goes back to
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> #2. When people of the opposite sex become close friends, most often,the female takes on emotional feelings and the male takes on sexual feelings. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please help her to work on finding the "why." Read the MB info and find out if there are needs that have not been met or other issues.If you do not find the answer there,there is also a great thread on the RECOVERY site by Absentmindedprofessor and his W that is eye opening info.

Dear Sincere1,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Having the EA has changed my perspective on this issue. I work in a male-dominated profession and have always had great male friends. My husband,conversely,works in a female-dominated profession and has always had great female friends.

This had never been a problem for either of us before the EA.

Now,I find myself retreating from any but the most superficial contact with even my dear male friends. I will definitely never again open myself up to a relationship with another man again,because my EA really did start as an innocent friendship.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Isn't it amazing how we fail to understand some things until we experience it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Kind of like tasting cod liver oil for the first time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Looks good but oohhhhh.


[/QUOTE]This bugs me. Because *I* am the guilty party,the one who screwed up,I have to forego all my friendships with men. Ok...fine. But he doesn't have to give up his closest friendship with another woman?[/QUOTE]

Always remember that two wrongs will never make a right.Keep yourself in check and you will never regret it.If he choses to be wrong don't be envious.You already know what being the guilty party feels like.

[/QUOTE] Am I wrong that it bugs me? I even got my H to admit recently that this woman probably has an "emotional attachment" to him...but he insists it would NEVER reach the proportions that my EA did. (She and her own husband SEEM to have a great,healthy marriage,and she also likes me very much.)[/QUOTE]
Your H might be doing it thinking he is showing you how he feels.He even admits that the friend "probably" already has an emotional attachment? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Sounds like part of his pain from your EA.I do not say that to criticize you but to help you to understand.Maybe you could talk with him and explain that especially since you went over the line with the EA that you want to save your M and that you would like for him to "see" this from your own reality of what it can do to damage the M.Talk with him in kindness and sincerety and not with resentment.EA can be just as devastating as PA's.
Please read the marriage building info on this MB site.Dr.Harley is the best.

BTW.My H and I were known as the poster couple for happy marriages so the SEEMS to have a great,healthy M does not keep the "Friend" or your H from going over the line as you and your H know very well now.Your H is definately aware that his M is not great and healthy right now.More reason not to continue the contact with the friend.

Happy Valentine's Day to all of you and may God bestow His greatest of blessings upon you,your S and your marriage.Think positive and keep up the good work you have begun.Time,patience,perseverence and MBer's. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> KK

lions,
no i dont think you are asking for to much at all.however it is almost impossible for you to sever all contacts with other men.its not the 30 guys she talks to on line its the one that catches her attention that you have to worry about.all you can do is make sure she is loved at home.the rest is up to her.i dont believe affairs just happen.reguardless of the "long time friend" or the "new person at work" or "the person in the chat room"the WS knows what they are doing.fog or not.actually i think the fog part comes later.the WS puts themselves in the position.

i caught my wife talking to several men online just prior to the A.i could not get it through her head that they were not just being friendly.they had one goal.one succeded that i know of.she defended with they were just talking and she wasn't going to run off with them.she didn't see anything wrong with telling them all about her.history showed diferent.

I think a friendship with a member of the opposite sex outside your marriage or relationship becomes dangerous when that friend starts to emotionally take a part of you that should belong only to your partner. In other words, when you start to share thoughts, ideas or simply daily happenings with your friend, but then don't share the same things with your spouse, because you either don't want to go over the whole thing again, or you aren't sure how your spouse will react, then you are giving something to someone outside of the relationship that should be reserved for your spouse. As someone else put it above, you don't need another best friend; your wife or husband or significant other should have that role, and should not have to share that role with someone else.

I am not saying that ALL opposite-sex friendships are wrong--only the ones that "leave out" your spouse.

As far as people setting their own boundaries; that is a double-edged sword, and I think it depends entirely on the person. My husband is subject to compulsive sexual behavior, and personally, I don't trust him to set his own boundaries at this point in the game--especially when it comes to how he can relate to other women. It's a big part of his recovery for him not to.

my move

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lions1957:
<strong>She has maintained NC since D-Day but in part it was due to me disconnecting (with her reluctant compliance) our home Internet service. I don't know when/if we will ever get it back because it still is a source of many bad memories for me. She was addicted to her Internet world and got caught up in it after she met some male friends (I call them predators) while gaming, and over time, gave in to them sexually over the Internet and phone (no PA). </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You were wise,,,my husband did this fifteen times in the past 9 years, and it blew up into FAR more, including joining dating services, lies beyond belief, meeting some of them real time, making hotel reservations, and buying condoms,,not to mention my OWN PA after putting up with this for so long,,,the final upshot, we filed for divorce, but have SOMEHOW with the grace of God and MB and Surviving an Affair discovered that there IS life after an affair,,,and to anyone that would tell you that an EA can't be as damaging as a PA, I am here to tell you they are DEAD wrong,,,,Holly