I'm in a strange mood. We had SF on Saturday morning, but it left me feeling odd. She at first made some comment about my being interested, kind of insulting, but I don't remember just what she said. But then she suddenly was interested. Now she's back to that previous mode. Kind of a sarcastic put-down, for lack of a better way to describe it.

I am reminded of a convo that SC and I had in Houston last week. That his W may have "chosen" her current OM because SF wasn't possible, whereas she had a PA with her previous OM because he pressured her and she was afraid of losing him. This all is speculation, of course, on our part. No telling whether he'll ever know for sure.

I see something like that in my W lately. SF is "just sex" to her because of the compromise to her own moral beliefs that she had to make in order to "keep" her friendship with RM, and in order to stay M'd to me. More like to "stay a parent with me" to our kids and family.

I don't feel loved right now. Just "liked." I'm tired of it, too. I want to "simplify" our lives by lobbing off the obvious infringements to our ability to be close - starting with RM. I refrain from blurting anything like that out to her, though, because I recognize the need, still, to strengthen our bond first. Plus, we've got SO MUCH to deal with right now, and there is little time left over for us to talk about our R.

And so I have a strong feeling about cliches like: "Actions speak louder than words." I would rewrite statements like that:

"Actions don't speak at all. Actions express meaning in their own way, and meaning of some things better than words can express, but they are NOT a substitute for verbal communication."

There. I'll step off my soap box.

I wish she'd use words in addition to actions. I need them both.

-Qfwfq

I see exactly what you mean. You know, since the start of her A (in hindsight) I always felt that my WW would grant me s*xual favours only to the extent in order for me not to walk out, not to go completely bonkers, in order to 'stay in control'. This, of course, is unsatisfactory and is exactly the sort of stuff I cant live with anymore. Do you feel similarly?

Nick:

I think so, to a degree. After D-day, we literally had SF every night for about a week. And often after a major LB argument, even ones where one of us threatened to leave, we had great "makeup" SF. This went on for several months. Lately, things are settling down to a much more "realistic" or pragmatic approach to our problems, but we're still not completely comfortable talking about them. I even "think I know" what *I* need to talk about, but it's amazing how much "fear" still prevents me from initiating such convos.

SF is just an act, and yet the "quality" and even the quantity of it these days keeps creeping back into my thinking and causes me to feel suspicious. Many might say there's plenty for me to be suspicious about - because contact continues. But RM works for my W, and will probably for several more months at least.

The thing I need to remember is that "real progress" shouldn't be measured by the amount or quality of any particular "EN" (and I tend to agree with a friend's comment recently that "SF is not a need, but a "want", and I certainly don't believe that AS is a valid need), but by how successful I am at GENUINELY expressing my love for my W, as she is, who she is, right now.

Boy, do I starve for the words sometimes, though!

-Qfwfq

I believe the simple answer has to do with the stereotypical way that men and women approach sex. You know the, "men give love to have sex, and women give sex to have love".

More specifically, that sexual desire that is so easy in men (seems that sexual desire is linked to testosterone) can be really hard for women to feel. They can feel it in an A because the "romantic" feelings trigger testostrone in women and the resulting "desire" feelings.

I think you'll often see WHs are generally more willing to have sex than WWs. The physiological comments above seem to be consistent with this.

But I'll be damned if I know what to do about it. Sometimes it seems like the more you talk about this, the worse it gets because of the fustration and disappointed expectations. Especially if the talk drifts into demands, needy, or equity related arguments.

Here's one suggestion that may get you some mileage. Give back the sarcasm better than she gives it to you. Not in a jerk way, of course. But in the flirty, cocky sort of way that women seem to like. My W has specfically said to me that she likes to be teased cause it makes her laugh. Needy is not sexy. It's can be a tough balance between teasing and being mean. The difference between needy and hurt is also pretty blurry.

There is a new book out there called "Sex-Starved Marriage" (I haven't read it, but thought the title was refreshing blunt) that perhaps might have some insights on how things could improve or perhaps at least provide a better understanding of what your W may be going through. I think many women don't understand it very well themselves and can feel hopeless about the lost desire/feelings.

One day, there'll be a female "viagra" that kicks up desire a couple notches. That company's stock will go through the roof.

Anyway, those were just some random thoughts. Maybe more for my benefit than yours -especialyl since I didn't really address your comments. I've felt the same way as you occasionally over the years and I know I've handled it badly at times.

est:

"Here's one suggestion that may get you some mileage. Give back the sarcasm better than she gives it to you. Not in a jerk way, of course. But in the flirty, cocky sort of way that women seem to like. My W has specfically said to me that she likes to be teased cause it makes her laugh. Needy is not sexy. It's can be a tough balance between teasing and being mean. The difference between needy and hurt is also pretty blurry."

I've done this, without realizing it. And It does work to a degree. I think that the point I'm making, though I may be misunderstanding you, is that when I'm successful with a "technique" it's not my application of something that CAUSES the success. Rather, the success is a perception of mine that comes from feeling close or on the same wavelength.

I just read this, from Barry Long, that struck a chord with me about all this...

"Now here's an intelligence test. Please ask yourself this question: Do I want to be with, live with, or love somebody who's always moody, angry, restless, sullen, resentful or depressed? If the answer is `no', then the next question is: Why do I believe that anyone would want to live with me while I have those emotions? As you dismantle the personality and become more one with life, you will start to feel some disintegration of yourself."

"You will feel at times you are `nothing', and that you're losing your identity. Know that it's your personality you're losing, not your identity. Nothing you are or have will disappear. All that goes is the attachment, the identification with the things the personality calls `me and mine'. And that includes your most intimate and treasured notions of what life and love are about. For in the end, I realize that nothing is `mine', not even my own body. I am behind it all -- the being behind the mask in the bathroom mirror. I am the end of the masquerade."

This is just one snippet of insight I've been feeling lately. Not all. SC pointed me to some Barry Long articles recently. I took "offense" to some of them, because I felt they were inaccurate personal digs, but when I looked deeper (with a lot of back and forth!), I realized differently. Maybe I'll post more of my thoughts about them here later.

-Qfwfq

Q,

I'm going to reply to you before I read all the posts. Since "actions speaking" is in my sig line and I feel so strongly about them I thought I should explain first.

In my situation FWH pretty much verbally spoke all the same words before the A, during the A, and after the A.

To say I was blind-sided on d-day and had NO IDEA an A was possible is still an understatement.

What I have learned post A is all the non verbal clues that were out there before, during, and after the A. The actions he "spoke" with were screaming; only I wasn't listening.

Still haunts me. What I missed. To this day I question reality. The sorting of illusion vs reality.

I'm with you on words in addition to actions are necessary. I'm just hoping that it's easier to read actions when the words are a lie.

Also my FWH is articulate, with a fast wit. His ability to "spin" is exceptional. He talks circles around me and is a noted negotiator at work.

Now, I'll read the thread! CSue

CSue:

Hm... my W is like your H. Very fast and clever on her verbal feet. I'm the opposite. I need to cogitate at length on what's been said to make sense of it. Before D-day, I cogitated "2 long" and often wound up with my imagination interpreting something that wasn't even said in the first place. Before D-day, the result was that even with actions going on all over the place around me, I was blind-sided by the "truth" when my imagination and vain hope insisted to me, subconsciously, that what was actually happening would have been impossible. Now, I read the signs much better than I used to be able to, but it "feels" like they're still very much the same. Not that my W is still having an A, but the problems with our interaction are still very much hindering our ability to learn from the experience and correct the problems.

I feel great when she tells me "ILY." But she hasn't in a good 4 months now. When she doesn't, I feel anxious, like I'm missing some signals again in her actions that I need to understand. But then, I think about THIS process, and realize just how destructive this worrying can be. So, I'm trying to spend more time on understanding myself and where I fit in with my surroundings, relationships, the whole 27 feet. When I'm "successful" at this, the "other stuff" takes care of itself, and for a time, I'm happier. And when I'm happier, she's a little happier. Maybe, someday, eventually, she'll express that verbally as well as through actions. Maybe she'll even respond when I say ILY. But I won't expect. I'll only hope.

-Qfwfq

<small>[ March 24, 2003, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

Sorry you are struggling ~Q~.

I sent you an email to make you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> laugh out loud!

Pep

Q-

I can tell you what makes me have more desire for my h.

When he meets my Emotional Needs. Some women say that when their husband's do the dishes it is like foreplay.

Have you and your W done the questionaires in Harley's books? The ones about Emotional Needs is awesome. Find out what hers are exactly, and how you can meet them. Plan some special date time, before the SF comes up.

What did you two do back in the dating days, that bonded you? Try some of that again.

My h and I used to go on nature hikes and etc, that is something I have been dying to do and I am hoping he will do that with me soon. We used to have way more romantic dinners... we used to write each other very expressive long letters, and spend lot s of time talking... etc, etc.....

Do something special for your wife, does she like flowers? How about poetry, even if it is not your own, give her a poem that you feel shows her how much you love her.

How about champagne or even chocolate covered strawberries? A weekend away at a nice bed and breakfast or a nice hotel. How about a nice romantic Sunday brunch....

Does she like for you to take her shopping and buy something special for her?

What is her love langauge- words, actions, gifts- gifts of service... fixing the car or the door?
Sweet nothings in her ear?

Love Deposits will build that emotional connection that needs to grow in order to build that physical connectedness she can't live without when you are her everything. Be there for her Q.

Now I could be very off base, but in my opinion a woman needs to build that emotional connection to want more of the physical and feel comfortable giving that part of herself to you physically.

May I also advise the Power of a Praying Husband, if you believe in that sort of thing... I am find the Power of a Praying Wife quite helpful in my journey and am thrilled to hear my h is praying for me, I hope he will read the Power of a Praying H. Yes, it includes ways to pray for the sexuality in your marriage.

It was wonderful to meet you in Houston town. I do hope things get better and the two of you grow closer.

Take care of you and maybe that too will attract her to you. Be handsome and wear some good smelling colgone if she likes that, or even a nice shirt, etc.... whatever she likes try doing it.

These are only my ideas, and I do not know your full story, as I have been riding my own roller coaster for a good part of yours... but I do think many women would enjoy some of the above and be more inclined to up the notch physically when these types of needs are met.

Good Luck and I am thinking of you and your wife, Hope to you.

Honey

PS, It is my thoughts that she may open up to sharing more verbally as you grow closer and for now, she knows how you feel about RM. Maybe as time goes on, you and she will be able to more openly discuss your pain and her involvement, etc. For now, do work on building intimacy and connectedness and positive happy feelings between the two of you.

I have had to realize lately, my h has already heard my complaints 1000 times, he knows what is wrong with him and us. I have sd it and that is enough for now- so I pray for him and that things will change for him adn that we will grow closer and have a better M... etc.

Sometimes actions are good, sometimes we don't need to talk about everything. Do what you can do to help, and sometimes that is not saying a word...

I would count on her getting more verbal as she gets more comfortable.

I for one am throwing sarcasm out the window in my marriage for now, it is something that helped destroy , not build love. Yes, I agree some of the above is good....

But show her real love, not always joking.... joking is good, but kindness and understanding and true love is even better... we all need some of that.

You know what she needs, try giving it as you want to give it to your most precious friend that she is, I know you are someone who truly can do that.

Good luck and happy week, H
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Q, I wish I had something thoughtful and helpful to say to you on this topic, but I don't. Feeling "liked" is better than not feeling cared about at all, but is it enough for you is the real question I guess.

Honey's point about throwing sarcasm out the window is probably a good idea. I'm famously sarcastic, most of the time in a humourous way, but oh my can I ever use sarcasm to LB my butt off, faster than I can stop the words coming out of my mouth (bad habit I guess).

Just letting you know I'm thinking of you,

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've done this, without realizing it. And It does work to a degree. I think that the point I'm making, though I may be misunderstanding you, is that when I'm successful with a "technique" it's not my application of something that CAUSES the success. Rather, the success is a perception of mine that comes from feeling close or on the same wavelength.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Would you feel success (felt close or same wavelength) UNLESS there was some "coming around" on your W's part. Whether it's a laugh, an affectionate touch, a quick smile or just feeling at ease from your W, isn't that really where the success is from? Isn't that a reasonable expectation fulfilled? I'm not sure why that isn't enough and why it should be discounted with "perceptions". "Technique" trigger reaction in W (success!) triggers reaction/perception in you (secondary success - makes you feel better but not as important).

That Barry Long quote just spins my head around - I don't quite see his point - or at least his reasoning. It's like A, B, C. Therefore D. Uh, ok. I definitely don't have the context required for that quote. But I've only read it 5 times. Who's Barry Long? And who's SC?

Still I'm interested to see where you go with all this. And how you process what the women have had to say on this thread.

Pepper:

"I sent you an email to make you laugh out loud!"

You did? Hm... didn't see it.

-ol' Qfwfq

Honey:

Nope, my W doesn't care to read any of the books, go to counseling, fill out questionaires. She's a smart cookie, and proud of her own abilities. All that's made progress a bit slower than it might be if we were being coached. But we're moving along. We'll see.

-ol' Qfwfq

est:

I don't always get Barry Long either, but he sure makes me think about stuff. Sometimes he's so "on the mark" that it pisses me off. I take his generalizations personally. But, again, he makes me think.

He's some sort of spiritual teacher: www.barrylong.org.

-Qfwfq

Q-

I'm sure you know what her EN's are anyway, but did you try filling out the EN questionaire for her?

Good Luck, H

Hi Q,
ROTFL, ROTFL
As soon as I can pick myself up from off the floor, I will comment.

I'm in a strange mood.

Oh Man, you really got me with this one, YOU HAVE ALWAYS BEEN IN A STRANGE MOOD.
Whew, I can't stop the tears.
OK, lets start again.
How can I put it??

Lets see, how about this"
When have you not been in a strange mood?

Is that more kind?
I mean, I am not trying to hurt your feelings or anything.
Actually, it's part of what I like about you.

OK, I'll quit teasing. I bet you meant that you were feeling different than you usually do?
Something like that?

Now the point of this is that we all can use words and they can mean different things to us.
Same for actions. You already know this, I am just reviewing some things. You like to use ILY, and your W does not. She appears to be confused about what it means and so she is careful not to say it because ( my words, not hers) perhaps it commits her to something she doesn't know if she can commit to. It probably commits her to no contact with RM.

I am going to say lots of other things based on the interaction of my W and I. If some of it strikes a cord, perhaps it will help as you continue to try to figure out how to improve your own M.

She continues SF because it makes you happy. She does like it when you are happy because you are easier to live with. We give clues by our body language constantly and she can pick up on these and knows that for you to be your best you need SF. ( I am not saying you "NEED" SF but can we agree that you are happier with SF than without if she gives it because she cares about you?) I believe she cares about you or she would not, could not do this. We will leave the word love alone for a while.

We had SF on Saturday morning, but it left me feeling odd. She at first made some comment about my being interested, kind of insulting, but I don't remember just what she said. But then she suddenly was interested. Now she's back to that previous mode. Kind of a sarcastic put-down, for lack of a better way to describe it. I am reminded of a convo that SC and I had in Houston last week. That his W may have "chosen" her current OM because SF wasn't possible, whereas she had a PA with her previous OM because he pressured her and she was afraid of losing him. This all is speculation, of course, on our part. No telling whether he'll ever know for sure. I see something like that in my W lately. SF is "just sex" to her because of the compromise to her own moral beliefs that she had to make in order to "keep" her friendship with RM, and in order to stay M'd to me.
I believe you got this right. She has to be flippant about it, it has to be "just Sex" or else she has to admit ( to her self) that she did something very, very wrong. Right after D day she would admit this under her breath but now she is trying to survive emotionally and she try's to keep these thoughts away. She would heal faster if she would start to deal with them but she probably doesn't know that.
I suspect she does it now more for the connection it gives her to you than for any other reason. On the surface she may have convinced herself that you just want it, but I believe it keeps the emotional connection strong between you two.

I don't feel loved right now. Just "liked." I'm tired of it, too. I want to "simplify" our lives by lobbing off the obvious infringements to our ability to be close - starting with RM. I refrain from blurting anything like that out to her, though, because I recognize the need, still, to strengthen our bond first.
I believe you have that right also. Strengthen the bond, then when it is strong enough to take more stress, get things out in the open. Q, you are a good mix. You have strong feelings but you have a hard edge and you are very intelligent. I can see sometimes when posters push you in a direction you don't want to go that you stop and firmly say you won't go there. You know what you want, and you are much closer to getting what you want now than you have ever been ( at least for as long as I have been reading your thoughts.)
I believe your W knows about this hard edge. I think she stays away from it on purpose and does some things for your happiness.

Plus, we've got SO MUCH to deal with right now, and there is little time left over for us to talk about our R.
Actually these other things are ways to strengthen your bond also. In fact, they could be blessings in disguise. You have a chance to help her emotionally every day. You can talk to her, hug her, give admiration for how well she copes and so on. You can support her and help her with the actual work ( like you have done many times doing computer work for her project.) You need to be strong enough to lead out in problem solving but humble enough to ask her opinion and value it when it is given. You need to communicate these traits to her by your actions, always showing she ( and her feelings) are important to you.

Actions express meaning in their own way, and meaning of some things better than words can express, but they are NOT a substitute for verbal communication." I wish she'd use words in addition to actions. I need them both.

The phrase "baby steps" is often used here at MB.

" W, you know I have problems emotionally with some of the things that have happened the last few years between us. I have found that verbal support from you is very important in overcoming my pain. I know we have talked about saying ILY and you don't feel you can say that. Perhaps there are other things you can feel good about saying that will help me heal. "

How about :
I am glad we are still together.
It makes me happy to spend time with you.
I feel good when I spend time with you.

You can even just explain how important verbal support is to you and let her work on it.
"W, can you think about this and see if you can figure out how to help me with this one?" If she is sarcastic, joke back and make her laugh, but then at the end, say please again in your most loving voice.

I can't remember a response from you after you told her she was lovable. ( as per Pepperband.)

Now, can we go back to the first for a bit before we finish up.

You know men and women are different. I believe this difference is one of the root causes of both of your lack of happiness and fulfillment. ( but just one, there are others like the A would be a biggie, and there is codependency and other stuff.)

ILY means something different to you than it does to her RIGHT NOW. Many of the things you say are not the things she hears. It's not the words.

That's why communication, on going dialogue and no LB's are important. As you continue to communicate you work through these things. I think all the things we read need to be imported into our mind so they can match " the way things are" for us. All of what I read about love, meeting needs, communication, and many other things run together in my mind to give me direction and help when I need help. They help us understand the way things are for others so we can properly interact with them. One of the things I have found after a year of talking with and trying to understand my W, WE OFTEN AGREE AND DON'T KNOW IT. That is, we really want the same thing, but we have different ways to describe it, and we have different methods of getting there. It takes time and patience. Perhaps actions really don't speak, but in the case of your W, I believe her actions show she wants to make it workl, even if the words are not there. Ask her for help with that part. Say please.

Really, I believe you will do well with this. I believe you are doing much better getting the skills you need to make it work. I went through much of what you are going through. ( I know I have no story, but I had to do the improving to get the results.) I know you see progress, I know it is slow and there is still pain.

I think you are a pretty good guy, I just plain like you - for what it's worth.

SS

Honey:

That was the one assignment that SH gave me back in August. I got busy, went for a job interview, got busy again, and just never did it. Since she's not been interested in Cing, I haven't picked it up recently. I did fill it out myself, for myself, once quite a while ago. I found that I was too angry at the time to think clearly.

-Qfwfq

Q-

I totally understand the anger, going through an angry phase today with WS, and his totally LOW amount of child support her paid late this month, so I don't have it yet... AHHHHH!

Anyway, never signed up to be a single mom... don't mind working, but I would say my frustrations with lack of financial support.. even if we are seperated, h making a decent amount like he used to would be nice... lack of fin. support for women, prob. ranks right up there with lack of sf for men.

Anyway, If you can muster filling out the EN ques. for her I would try it.... JMHO... It does help to really see if on paper what they want. My WH was actually willing to do that a while back, and I really already knew what he wanted, but was suprised by a few of his comments.

What was she getting from the A, that she was not getting in the M? I know that is a hurtful question, b/c our spouses are supposed to love us unconditionally and with true commitment, but it seems these WS's are just wired differently.

Take care of you and do more for you so that you will need less from her. Maybe even go and get yourself a nice massage? I bet that would help! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Take care,

Honey

SS:

Didn't you know? They keep a copy of me on file at the US Bureau of Standards as the "standard of normality." And so, when I'm in a "strange mood", it would be prudent to check the other constants of the universe to make sure that 2 plus 2 still equals 4.000 (if you're an engineer), or something between 3 and 5 (if you're a geologist).

"I can't remember a response from you after you told her she was lovable. ( as per Pepperband.) "

Funny you should mention that. Remember the Orchid that I bought her for V-day? She just remarked again this past weekend, with possibly even more amazement than a few weeks ago, that the flowers are still blooming! Also, the card I gave her that I cut out of the "Little Debbie" box is still on the fridge! cardboard side out, with my "You are SO loveable!" written on it in my oh so sloppy handwriting!

SS, you know me better than I do! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...which is why I enjoy reading your posts! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanques,
-ol' Qfwfq