Hello all,

Just wanted to comment on something I seem to be seeing.

Perhaps it is just me, but it seems that there are a lot of people here whose spouse has an affair with 1 year of marriage.

There have seemed to be a lot of WH who have affairs while W is pregnant.

There seems to be a lot of WW who have affairs with very very young children (1-3) years old.

Anyone want to venture into what the dynamics here of affairs so early in the marriage, or when new children are added to the family or the process there of?

Being the old male chauvanist that I am <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , it really seems strange to me that mothers with babies would start such affairs. Guess I am out of step with the times.

Just curious.

JL

Our marriage councellor discussed with us ,, a woman with children under 5 is more likely to have an affair than the more mature woman with older children. perhaps the pressure of parenting and feeling like a daggy housewife adds to the draw when someone pays attention.

I know I felt daggy and worn out, I felt like a zombie really.. I had four under six..can assure you an affair never even crossed my mind. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

JL,

This has crossed my mind also and while there is no real good statistic or time to have an A, it is surely very sad to see it happen to those so young and give the babies such a bad start. Especially since those are their formative years.

I am amazed how one's natural instincts can be forgone in the fog so that mothers leave their babies, children, etc. Fathers do the same..... all in the name of love?

What dictionary are they reading from? I hate how the word 'love' is used sooo loosely nowadays. Maybe I am one of those oldies whose time has come and need to disappear into the 'older generation'. LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Would I have endured what these young ones are going through? I am not sure. Even I thought I had taken 'precautions'but those A germs just squirmed their way into my life..... YUCK!!!

Looking for that vaccine to cure all A's. Hm..... JL? Any advice? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

There is obviously a mutant love bug out there somewhere Orchid.

Woohhaaa, imagine finding a vacine to that one !

I have noticed that too. From a man's point of view I can't imagine cheating on your wife, especially when she's pregnant. My wife seemed so vulnerable and needed more emotional support when she was pregnant I could never think of doing something like that. Because I wasn't getting MY EN met during that time? That makes me sick.

I am also one that thinks the motherly bond with children is blown way out of proportion. There is no way a woman could love her kids more deeply and passionately than I do. Maybe that's one of those things I can't understand because I can't experience it.

I'm not sure if this is where you were going with this JL...but it is an interesting question about the differneces in generations.

I look back on my parents life and can't believe that they never had an A (that I know of) or got a divorce. No affection whatsoever and I can only remember one seperation for only a few days.

There is obviously a different dynamic now days and I struggle sometimes with which is right. My parents stuck it out. Was that for the best? Don't know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I hate how the word 'love' is used sooo loosely nowadays. Maybe I am one of those oldies whose time has come and need to disappear into the 'older generation'. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is one of the things I wonder about also. Is it used more loosely or is it used more strictly? Did my parents have 'love'??...I hardly ever saw them smile. Or are people nowdays beginning to understand the feeling of love needs to be present?

We have made progress in a lot of areas in our lifetimes. Could this be one of them also? And don't get me wrong, I am not saying an A is the way to get that 'love' for someone...remember that the Harley's weren't there years ago either.

Am I making any sense whatsoever?

Actually Can't,

I really wasn't going anywhere with this, just musing on what I seem to be seeing here, and have seen here.

As for the older generation not showing love, I don't know that they showed it as much, but I think they did. Heck, I may be that "older" generation. If you are under 40 theoretically I could be your parents. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I do know my parents who were raised in the depression had a more pragmatic view of what marriage was. It was many things but it was a "working" relationship and fun and happiness while good weren't that necessary. That said, my parents were married for many decades and were very happy.

I guess my point is that something is changing. As Orchid pointed out, most women with young ones seemed too tired for affairs, but I suspect it is the availability of daycare,and more women working that is evening out the odds between males and females as well as permitting younger mothers opportunities to have affairs.

Darned if I know. Just threw it out for people to discuss if they like.

JL

I may have answered my own question in reading my post.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And don't get me wrong, I am not saying an A is the way to get that 'love' for someone...remember that the Harley's weren't there years ago either.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Back then people didn't have the 'tools' to deal with marrital problems like we have today. But even today, not everyone has found the tools. And with the advent of the internet, the ones who REALLY want to do something are out there searching and how found this site. The ones who are unsure (with a few exceptions) are here getting the tools they need.

Would my Mother have found this site if it were available years ago? Probably. Would my Father have rejected it as a bunch of crap? probably also.

I'm not sure it is different. Just more availability.

JL:

Thought I'd respond to this, if for no other reason than it's a thread started by good ol' JL!

My W's A started when my son was 3. I don't know. I think that the change in lifestyle brought on by a new addition to the family and the way that other family members do or don't "pitch in" with taking a load off, (in my case, that's me), can "help" to make the WS feel like seeking company elsewhere. ...but then I remember that I was a lot more helpful when our son was small than when our daughter was little. I even pointed that out to my W a while back when she was accusing me of not helping out. She acknowledged that I did in fact help out. More that there was a "need" for any kind of justification at the time than there is now. But we're no different than anyone else in that regard.

I think it's more one of those things that we seem to think is a trend when it's not. Like cold weather and earthquakes, or small children and alien abductions.

Just my thoughts. I could be wrong.
-Qfwfq

According to the people who study such things human psychology (which drives what we do) is about 2/3 genetically determined, immutable. The other 1/3 which can (and does) modify the instinctual behaviour is somewhat modifiable, but is mostly determined in our teen years by our peer group. A small portion of that (about 1/3 of the 1/3) is determined bb FOO...ie parenting. It is a small part, but it can be important, significant abuse/neglect can have serious affects..yet we observe regularly adults arising above the circumstances of family, suggesting (as the behavioural anthropologists are finding) family influences are not that big a factor.

Ok, having said all that, one other factor is extant as well, that being genetics don't change rapidly, certainly not at all (measureably) over a few hundred years. There are no functional differences between now, and 50 years ago, or 100, or 500 years ago for that matter.

So, what explains jl's observations. The above, I just pass on from my studies (not my opinion in other words, feel free to refute the experts if one disagrees, I believe the research myself though, just have no expertise to defend it)....however, I do have some opinions on the matter.

If people are the same (psychologically) what factor is changeable that would explain the behavioural observations....I can only think of one....opportunity. Behavioural actions boil down to 3 components, motive, means, and opportunity.

Motive is unchanged, humans are hard-wired (for essential species survival reasons) for "affairs". Affair is meaningless, as a genetic/instinctual concept. Our reproductive strategies are fine tuned over hundreds of thousands of years by enviroment, and success is determined by whether the species survives. All human societies express affair related reproductive strategies, so motive is built in.

Means, well, all humans are fertile with all other humans, so there is little modification there. As long as someone appears able to um....perform, that has little bearing, and certainly has not changed. I bet though if fertility started to change, and was (readily) physically apparent, you would see this alter affair strategies....I think we could possibly test for that by studying affair statistics in groups such as the handicapped.

Opportunity is primarily driven by social realities. If the cost of an affair is death, and is vigorous enforced, you will experience a substantially reduced affair rate. Likewise if the cost is high in terms of prestige, money, status etc. And indeed in times past these factors clearly influence the frequency of affairs, as well as the demograhic make-up. I am not going to attempt to go into all the ramifications, just suggest a few obvious social changes in the last generation that would increase opportunity....and if we increase opportunity, motive and means are free to operate, and are always present (IMO).

Males have traditionally been thought of as the pursuers of affairs (of course there has to be a woman to be caught, but often these were the mistress, prostitute, etc. not the housewife next door so often). However, this is not a male thing, there is no difference in motivation for females, affairs are an essential reproductive strategy for females as well (as it turns out, they just go about it differently), and will be sought whenever possible (ie opportunity).

Human sexual history has been essentially about control of female reproductive opportunities. Women were essentially chattle, and had little direct say in who fathered their children. Women who attempted to take control suffered extreme penalties such that the risk was high, so opportunity low. They had no source of independent power, and bastar* children fared poorly. This continued pretty much unchanged until the late 19th century (and still is unchanged in much of the world today). But with the advent of the industrial age, a capitalistic and gender blind economic system,...well in theory, but getting there all the time), opportunity (for females) dramatically changed. For the first time in human history, a large scale society emancipated women.

With this opportunity, women began to seize self-detemination, free of male control. This manifests itself in many ways, and certainly sexual behaviour would be at the top of the list...and in fact that is exactly what happened, we call it the sexual revolution....it is sometimes expressed in terms of both genders, free love, living together, rejection of many mores...but (IMO) has nothing to do with males, whose behaviour changed little from the opportunities always present....no, it was a female revolution, a seizeing of self-determination, a quantum increase in......opportunity.

IMO what you observe JL, is a predictable behavioural change in female reproductive behaviour. We look at it in social terms, and relationship terms, but that is not what drives sexual behaviour. You are observeing normal behaviour, that does not mean it is healthy behaviour in the long run (if one applies rationality to it), but it is healthy instinctual behaviour. Women are not abandoning their kids, that is a higher order lament...their kids are born, they will not die in our society, we all know this, so women are driven to mate again, so all their DNA is not vested in one matrix...the same reason men wander. It is all about opportunity. We have created a society that provides for single parenthood, and has essentially eliminated (legally, morally, economically) the stigma of bastar* children. We have also created an economic structure that empowers women to take care of themself with no male input. We have also created a legal system that allows women to choose divorce, or infidelity without being subjected to male violence/intimidation. We have essentially eliminated all the barriers to female affair opportunity, and in fact, that is what we observe, a huge increase in female infidelity.

There is more to it, but it is in the details, it is interesting to note females walk away more from marriages, and file more for divorce, even without infidelity....it is all about opportunity for self-determination....an undoubtably unexpected outcome of feminism.

btw, I think the marked change over last generation is representative of the changes brought about by WW2. Women were left at home to be independent, work in factories, dictate their lives....and they never gave it up. The baby boomers are the transition generation, the culmination of the forces set into motion by the founding of the United States (democracy) and the advent of the industrial age. I don't think we will see nearly the gender changes in the future that we have over the last 50, years, as the daughters of the baby boomers have come of age and know nothing about lack of opportunity. Their parents have one foot in each world (hence all the angst of the baby boomer generation and the rise of pop psychology, we were the questioners...our kids just live the reality). Our parents (their grandparents) were pretty much the tail end of the inertia (and reality) of limited female choice (but the pioneers were out and making their voices heard, Susan B et al).

<small>[ April 01, 2003, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: LurkingAbout ]</small>

Good questions, JL!

I have no real insight into this phenomena, only wanted to add a "confirmation" the theory by stating that my W falls squarely into this category: Her "first" A took place when our twins were about 3.

JL,
I think the A within the first couple years of marriage sort of points to the "signs of the times"...the disposable generation. If it breaks, don't fix it, buy a new one...it will probably be more technically advanced anyway.

The WH during a pregnancy is not as unusual as it seems...and seems to be supported by what I see in my practice. However, the majority of these seem to be in the ONS category. Many couples curtail sex for many reasons...and many couples seem to go through an identity change during pregnancy...woman more nurturing/nesting, guys pulling away from the same....when the child arrives it is NOT unusual for the woman to be completely enthralled in her new child..often to the exclusion of the father.

WW with the young kids also seem sort of prevelent..call it an early MLC, a longing to go back to a time of no responsibility, many are married to guys "on the brink" in their careers and feel left out.

And, divorce is much more accepted by society than it was 20 years ago. If the statistics are right..about 50% of married couples in their 20-30's today were probably from a family that experienced divorce. SO the "fear factor" that older generations have/had about divorce is no longer as strong a deterrent.

Just a couple cents.
T

one last thought...
JMHO...but it seems like when you are younger, you sort of have the "can start over again" feelings about many things...career, finances, love.

Maturity/age/experience teaches us that replacing is not always the better answer...that starting over may not be as apt to get us what we want. Also, we may be more in tune with what it is we do want.

Just a thought.
T

just my 2 cents as the ww and a SAHM whos kids were under 5 at the time, I personally felt like a fat frumpy housewife. I havce no education beyond HS so I also felt inredibly dumb. You won't find me having educated discussions with anyone cause I don't know anything LOL. OM complimented my sexuality and my brains. He made me feel like a woman, instead of a no body with no life. If I said something negitive about myself he countered with something wonderful that I had to look up the definition to know what he was saying.
My H was not doing a good job with the ENs, and had frequent angry out bursts so I also saw what a wonderful father he seemed to be to his children.

Interesting thoughts.

My first reaction reading JL's initial post was to conclude that the tendency towards expecting instant gratification, born of today's society's instant information and closer time horizon, must play a part in the "impatience" factor. The impatience factor being evidenced by JL's observation - spouses who can't wait for gratification and must act NOW while the iron is hot.

After reading the others' posts, I'm now sure it's more complicated than that.

But I can't get away from the notion that maybe we just "see" more of this stuff here and additionally, I'll bet that the choices of individuals and their senses of right and wrong over-rides societal trends. But maybe the influences of societal changes are causing our values of right and wrong to be changed - so I'm now talking in circles. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I can share this: during my deceased son's long illness, including two bone marrow transplants, I had the misfortune of spending many, many long days and nights in the hospital with him, in close proximity to other families going through the same thing. Talk about a laboratory for studying family interactions!!! There seemed to be an almost equally distributed mix of spouses ardently working together contrasted by either a husband or wife working alone - whose partner had fled from the struggle because they didn't want to be bothered by it all. Of course, my wife and I were aghast that ANY parent could flee their child at a time like this. "What could they possibly be thinking?" What determined how a parent would react? Looking back, I believe it was individual values and coping strategies that determined which parent would do what in that situation. Of course, my wife soon afterward demonstrated the opposite behavior. Go figure.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps it is just me, but it seems that there are a lot of people here whose spouse has an affair with 1 year of marriage.

There have seemed to be a lot of WH who have affairs while W is pregnant.

There seems to be a lot of WW who have affairs with very very young children (1-3) years old.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, for starters, this are all times of significant stress. And probably for most couples some disillusion.

You get married, and many folks fond that first year not one of enchantment, but one of hard adjustments, and disappointments. And, some people really do not expect all that...

H's having affairs during wife's PG seems quite repugnant. But for many men, it is also a time of huge stress, adjusting to a new view of their role and their w's. Sometimes sex suffers (altho for us it was the opposite). And they are suddenly facing increased responsibility. Seems like a perfect time for a mini-MLC sorta crisis, don't you think?

Women with small kids...that is really the hardest for me, personally, to understand. But, probably some of the same factors as above...adjusting to a new role, feeling increased responsibility, feeling a little trapped. Wanting to feel admired and loved as a woman, not a mom.

I do think our parents were raised to beleive that marriage was work and commitment, not necessarily happiness; maybe they just stuick it out better. Or maybe they just hid it better.

Don't want you all to think I have abandoned you.

I don't have much time for the next few days, but I am enjoying reading everyones thoughts. Just sit here nodding my head, yes, yess, yessss. But mostly seeing many things I sort of agree with.

I do have to say that the early marriages and affairs really sort of stun me. I just have a hard time understand why someone marries another person they don't seem to want to. I must be getting old. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Plus I waited and partied for a long time before I got married. Maybe I just don't "get it."

However, the discussions are interesting. I look forward to some more thoughts. Maybe WAT is right, like many things we just have access to more data than years past (the internet, and this site for example) and many things really haven't changed. I am relatively sure the male having an affair while W is pregnant probably hasn't changed too much.

Must go. I'll be back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by starman:
<strong>I have noticed that too. From a man's point of view I can't imagine cheating on your wife, especially when she's pregnant. My wife seemed so vulnerable and needed more emotional support when she was pregnant I could never think of doing something like that. Because I wasn't getting MY EN met during that time? That makes me sick.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H had his ONS when I was eight months pregnant. It is quite common. It`s a sign of a weak character in my opinion and a very immature thing to do.

I have noticed something else, of course not all me will cheat on their wives while pregnant but some of the men I know seem to freak out when a new child is on the way. Interesting enough it`s not the first pregnancy that will make some men flip, it`s the SECOND. With the first baby the men don`t know what they are in for but they sure do with the second.

I have another category to add to the list, the purchase of a first time home.

That also seem to bring out the worst in some men, another resposibility that makes them run.

My SIL and her baby D were just dumped for an OW because her BF freaked out over the purchase of new home. He said the responsabilty was too much for him. BTW this man also has another D by another woman. This second baby also pushed him to jump ship I think. He did say he couldn`t tolerate small children. My H also admits to that.

As for women who cheat when they have babies, I know someone who did that. I have no explaination for it. That is totally beyond me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kam6318: Or maybe they just hid it better.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BINGO <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I just read something someone else referenced here by Dr Wayne Perry. I can't find the link, but I will quote in part:

'So why do they do it? They are trying desperately (although almost always unconsciously) to get through to their marriage partner. Their rules of marriage won't allow for any direct confrontation, so they unconsciously set up a situation where all the unresolved hurts and pains are bound to come up.'

This is from an essay about Conflict Avoiders. He says they usually have affairs early in the marriage. I wish I could find the link (it worked yesterday!)