Ark, as usual you are in tune with more pervasive and direct to solution oriented advice.

I would not wish to take an OW to counseling with me. But if the BS wishes for this, then that would be her perogative. It may do her some justice to hear the OW answer questions that her WS refuses to tell. It is a sketchy situation, and I agree with you Ark.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by WFLOWER:
<strong>It is easy to criticize the OW for being the OW. She made a mistake and is trying to do something to help the BS, I think. Isn't this the story here?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hmmm I thought about this at lunch before I read WFLOWER. I think in my mood I sounded too harsh and I didn't mean to be. My point is, startingover807, YOU are a valuable person. If you are a Christian, you are God's child and He wants the best for you. You can have a great life and great future. I am glad you want to change and to move on from this. My point ultimately,, and I might have not expressed it enough, is as the OW, you are devastating to the BS. And the BS may think she is getting closure by talking to you but it will probably open the wounds deeper. So I think it is best to disappear unless you really feel like you should do something to show you really are sorry, then write her a little letter- don't say anything about what you did with her husband though, I think that is his job to tell her. If he doesn't then it shows the man he is- or lack of man. SOrry if I made you feel bad when you are trying to do the right thing. Not my intention.

Trying 2 forgive -- I'm sorry if I offended you with my comment about morals. You are right. But just like everyone else here, I feel entitled to my own opinion... and regardless of who initiates the A, be it the WS or OP, I feel that there has to be some "moral" issues involved! Even if the MM/MW starts it... why not walk away?

I certainly did not mean to make anyone angry, I guess I am still a little "tender" when it comes to the OP, and may not always express myself correctly. Being betrayed by the one you love the most can do that to a person.

-mcnyh

startingover807,
Did you know his wife before this mess?

There seems to be a lot of focus on the validity of closure. How about we forget that for now? I am not taking the leap that "closure meeting" was even neccessarily meant as closure of everything related to the affair.

BS has a legitimate need to help process the affair. Whether that's a heart-to-heart with WS or information gathering from a computer, or a session with OW, there does seem to be the possibility that useful information can come out. Which will trigger hurt/pain but so does most A-related relevations. But I don't see folks saying that WS should keep things secret.

I'm seeing a lot of the arguments against meeting OW as applicable to WS hiding truth about past A.

I do think that one problem in the M is the dishonesty of the H. Would not OW's account help bring that to light? I don't see the WS coming out to confess.

Also, I don't see the logic behind an absolute statement like, "If you tell one lie than all will be seen as a lie". I know that I would not assume that all is a lie because one thing was a lie, and I am a BS. I'd doubt a bit, but then I never really believed 100% in the first place.

Ad girl, I first wanted to say all of the judgemental things as well. And believe me, if I were the one she were wishing for forgiveness by it would be very near impossible from my point of view. But the situation is real and the BS seems to wish for her input. I do not think it is professional to invite this type of counsel, as Ark neatly stated. But we are all incredibly unique, are we not?

Forgiveness is divine in nature. To attain it I guess one must do what they can. And to forgive ones self is perhaps the greater challenge, provided you truly are sorry for what you have done.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by WFLOWER:
<strong>Ad girl, I first wanted to say all of the judgemental things as well. And believe me, if I were the one she were wishing for forgiveness by it would be very near impossible from my point of view. But the situation is real and the BS seems to wish for her input. I do not think it is professional to invite this type of counsel, as Ark neatly stated. But we are all incredibly unique, are we not?

Forgiveness is divine in nature. To attain it I guess one must do what they can. And to forgive ones self is perhaps the greater challenge, provided you truly are sorry for what you have done.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I actually have forgiven the OW in my situation. I didn't do that though based on anything she did or said. I guess that is why I find it unhealthy for OW and BS to meet. Yes, BS wants it, but I don't know how much it really would help. IMO both OW and WH are equally liars. They are both deceitful BECAUSE of the affair. I know OW in this situation is sorry and wanting to help-- but I just don't know how it can. Like so many say, closure really has to be inside. That is how I am most at peace- because I started thinking of me and I started looking to God for answers - instead of OW or WH. I think I am at the point where I feel sorrier for OW and WH than anything- because they are missing the full life they could have if they could forgive themselves and move on to make things better instead of being a prisoner of the past.

Edited to say: I got my ex at Christmas this ROCK. Yes a rock. It was a decorative thing and it says "nothing is worth more than this day" - point being, nothing yesterday can be changed but today is what counts- what will you do with it? I am afraid he has missed a lot of "todays"- I pray he won't waste many more. But now I have to focus on me not wasting any more!!

<small>[ May 20, 2003, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]</small>

Ad girl you are unique and blessed. Life is not neat and to be able to deal with it when it was tough for you is a wonderful, what you call in church...witnessing. I hope that others can be like you in this dept. It is truly needed.

Startingover,

I too was TOW and if it were me, i'd go to the meeting. I'd answer questions as honestly as I could and i'd listen to what the BS had to say.

HOWEVER, I would NOT stand to be demeaned or abused. Clearly emotions will run high on all sides on an issue such as this. IT's only natural. And I think the tendancy for OW is to continue to beat ourselves up. Clearly the EM relationship was a mistake and something that you're working on correcting. I would simply caution against being the whipping girl of the BS in the name of penance.

JMHO

I had the meeting with the BS and I have to say miracles can happen. We had a heart to heart that was open honest and healing for both of us. She did not hide her anger or the pain that I was a part of causing but it ended up she was a powerful and caring person and just needed to finally hear the truth.

By the end she showed an enormous amount of kindness and compassion. It ended up we had both been lied to and we got to really listen to each other and understand what each of us went through. The counselor was incredible! Thank you all so much for your responses, it really made a difference for both of us. I also directed her to this site for support because all of you have been so incredible.

Please don't worry if you said (or wanted to say) mean things, they actually helped me to realize how much pain was caused. Please know that some OW don't care who they hurt but some of us got into a situation that we will regret for the rest of our lives and in my case I will never forgive myself for the pain I caused but more importantly- I'm strong enough now that I will never do it again. My thoughts and hopes of healing are with all of you.

wflower...

I would not wish to take an OW to counseling with me. But if the BS wishes for this, then that would be her perogative. It may do her some justice to hear the OW answer questions that her WS refuses to tell.

But that's the whole reality and point of which the counselor needs to deal....husbands inability to tell the truth has nothing to do with OW...

indlulging the bs...especially when the exOW has legal protection from the husband...just sounds ridiculous to me....

It seem to me that couselor needs to steer and redirect their clients from more destructive behavior and focus...onto real issues...

does the wife know the exOW has legal actions against the WS
does the therapist know this...

ARK who will soemtimes debate just for the sake of it... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ May 20, 2003, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

WFLOWER:
Thanks- It truly is all God's power- and of course I slip and fall sometimes- still- refer to the post I did for this earlier and you know!! But I have an amazing overall peace these days.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by startingover807:
<strong>I had the meeting with the BS and I have to say miracles can happen. We had a heart to heart that was open honest and healing for both of us. She did not hide her anger or the pain that I was a part of causing but it ended up she was a powerful and caring person and just needed to finally hear the truth.

By the end she showed an enormous amount of kindness and compassion. It ended up we had both been lied to and we got to really listen to each other and understand what each of us went through. The counselor was incredible! Thank you all so much for your responses, it really made a difference for both of us. I also directed her to this site for support because all of you have been so incredible.

Please don't worry if you said (or wanted to say) mean things, they actually helped me to realize how much pain was caused. Please know that some OW don't care who they hurt but some of us got into a situation that we will regret for the rest of our lives and in my case I will never forgive myself for the pain I caused but more importantly- I'm strong enough now that I will never do it again. My thoughts and hopes of healing are with all of you.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Starting over:
Wonderful news!!! Maybe this WAS just what was needed and some of us were wrong. I hope so. I talked to OW and I tried to tell her that my ex was lying to both of us and that she needed to get right with the Lord (BECAUSE I KNEW IT WORKED FOR ME!) and count on him instead of my ex since he was lying so much. But after talking to her I know she lied to me a few times too, so I guess I was just worried because I don't feel it really helped me or gave me closure, or for that matter helped her. Maybe I was wrong and maybe something I said will stay with her and she will become more like you are....I praise you for changing your life. I do agree with ARK though,, this is now between her husband and her.

<small>[ May 20, 2003, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]</small>

I'm sort of curious how the confirmation of lies played out for the BS. Increasing the hurt seemed to be a major concern of yours. But it seems like a burden was lifted for her. Sort of confusing for me.

I'm glad it worked out better than anyone expected.

Startingover

If you come back and read this,

Thank you for directing her to this site,

Thank you for the honesty you shared with her

Thank you for realizing your part in the triangle

And I pray that you keep the strength you have gained, and I really hope you do not involve yourself in another A. It is demeaning to the BS and the OW.

(I am not the BS of your H).