So, please allow me to share what happened this past Sunday and get your feedback.
I will be out of town this weekend. While I am gone the boys will be staying with friends of theirs, which they are looking forward to.
Last Sunday WH called, and asked if he could spend the night at the house, with the boys. I told him I would think about it. He asked me why I had to think about it. I told him it was because I was not comfortable with him staying at our house while he was still having an affair. He said "it's not an affair" (I don't know what he calls it - he says he is in love with her, wants to be with her forever etc.) I told him that it IS an affair because they are both still married. They may have taken their wedding rings off, but they are still married.
to which he replied "well, I am working on that" and I asked him, "what does that mean" and he said we would need to get a divorce. He has not filed papers yet, in fact he is trying to pay off come bills first, which will take a long time. So I just reminded him that I did not want a divroce, and that would not make his relationship with "W" right. I also pointed out that if he went through with a dv, and gave me the house, he would never sleep there again, and he agreed that was true. So I told him it sounds like I don't need to think about it - I all ready have my answer right there. He can not stay there while he is still having an affair.
He said he misses the boys terribly and wants them to spend the night with him (he is living in a samll house with a friend - no room for 2 teenagers)
I told him that he does not need to miss them so terribly, he is welcome to see them whenever he wants too - he just can't stay at the house while he is having an affair.
No anger on either side.
He asked if it would be ok to stay with them at his Moms house, and I told him that of course it would be, but he would need to talk to them about it.
At this point, I think he has decided against that. Seems to have made plans just to spend the day with them on Saturday.
I reminded him, and honestly this is only about the 3rd time I have said this in the past 2 1/2 months - that the boys and I want him to be happy, and we believe he can be happy, with us, in our home, as a famliy. Not to return to the old life, which apparantly made him unhappy, but working on a new life. I told him that he could have had it all - the kids the house, a wife who loves him AND the happiness he is looking for, if only he had sought help within our relationship, not outside of our relationship.
He just said "I have to go" and hung up. Little Ms "W" must have walked into the room then.
What do you think?
Should I have let him stay at the house for the weekend while I am gone?
He accused me of "using the kids against him because I know how much he misses them so I am playing the game that way" all I could say was that I am not playing anything - I do not consider this to be a game. This is my life we are talking about. I want him to see the boys - they want to see him. But he can't sleep in the home we built together while he is still seeing "W".
I wonder, sometimes, if I read to many books. I find myself wondering if:
1. If I let him stay at the house will he begin to remember how much he likesd it there and want to come back?
2. or will he decide that he has his cake and all if he has a girlfriend, can stay at the house on occasion and not have to committ to me.
I obsess that every little move I make will have a long term effect on our R.
Yikes. What a mess.
Pet peeve of the day =
Obsessing over everything he does.

Womanoffaith5,
Your situation is very similar to my own. WH still says I am just making it difficult for him to see his kids by not allowing him in or to stay in the home anymore when he comes to visit. If you check out my thread you will see that his last visit and refusal to leave the home resulted in a Protection from Abuse Order.
Anyways, in the first several months following discovery, I allowed WH to come home and stay at the home to visit. My thinking was as you stated, that if he came home to the house we built together, and he spent time reconnecting with us and the home(he had been working on the road for some time, just home weekends)he may realize what he is giving up and decide to give up the A and come home.
It didn't help. I became increasingly angry that he was enjoying the home that I worked hard at making comfortable, eating my meals, playing "family" and then he would leave to drive 2.5 hrs back to his apt. in the city where skank girl and her kids lived. I was starting to LB due to my frustration and pain.
After a particularly "good" visit back in June, I decided to go to Plan B. I just couldn't do it anymore, making it easy for him to live with his choices.
So now, like your WH, he is not happy with that. I have still not allowed him to take the kids to his apt. for fear of being around OW, and he complains about having to drive up here to visit every 2 weeks for just the afternoon.
You know what? TOO BAD! That is the reality of his choices. Living 2.5 hrs. away from your family and you don't expect anyone to be inconvenienced? But he'll expect his kids to give up their weekend acitivities to drive 5 hrs. to spend a night with him, in an apt. that is basically just a bachelors pad with a roomate!
No way!
So I say, stick to your guns, don't let him cake-eat anymore. It's typical FOG that he will try to make it look like you are the difficult one.
You are NOT! You are setting boundaries!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Random acts of kindness. How wonderful of you!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, they're not random to me -- I look for them. I don't see anywhere near all the opportunities that I have, but I -do- look for them! Places where I can be gentle instead of ruthless and still get things to happen. Places where I can smile and listen to someone else's problem, and maybe make a suggestion that will help.

And the most wonderful part of it? It helps me at least as much as it helps anyone else. It gives me joy to do these things whether anyone else ever knows that they happened or not.

There's so much hurt in the world. We all carry it around. There's a whole lot to be said for taking care of our own hurts while we take care of others' hurts, too. Just making someone laugh is enough to take care of those hurts.

Just popping in to say hello. I popped out after someone told me that there's no such thing as "Plan B with contact" and that this couldn't be Plan B since I didn't send a Plan B letter. Don't think PBL would work in this case -- he'd really like to NC me and ignore the mess in his wake.

Well, call it A- then, or B+. My H is coming back from a month abroad with OW, triumphantly showing off his misfit and his misalliance to mutual friends. I haven't heard anything disastrous, and he dropped me a line (mostly business) saying things were going "well." Well, he'd say that even if he were hospitalized.

In a small town, we run into each other all the time. I really wish he weren't coming back. Seeing H and the sickly face of OW is too much. I could say lots about her, but why bother?

The A may be on almost out of gas -- at least, I've heard that -- on the other hand, I know you can go a long, long way on the fumes. It's hard to keep my head up, but I know I must.

A.M.Martin -

I didn't get a chance to thank you for your input on my MIL email thread. Your voice is always one that advocates civil behavior, sometimes I need a reminder. I especially appreciate your suggestion that my kids grin and bear it in the event their g-grandmother dies. I will remind them that it's always best to do the right thing, even when it's unpleasant. As for responding to MIL's email, I've decided to tell my kids I received it, and write to MIL that I am not responsible for her relationship with her grandchildren. I may also add that since WH made this mess, I'm also not responsible for cleaning it up. Hmmm - but saying it in a nice way, LOL.

You know, it doesn't matter if you're in Plan A- or B+ (that's funny), you're still welcome here. We're all in a similar boat. Have you read the thread that talks about serial cheaters, people who choose A's as a lifestyle? Is there a chance your WH falls into that category? My WH is on his third A, but I'm not sure it's a lifestyle, just constantly looking for someone to "save" him. Your latest sigline quote is good. Sometimes I think that, by standing up and saying, "hey, that's wrong, and I'm not going to look the other way", we can end up taking a lot of flak, but maybe another person will silently learn from us, get some strength to do the right thing.

J of HJK -

That's a great way to live! It brings me joy to help others, too, even when they don't know it, and to be reminded that we're all connected. I hope I bump into you someday.

Lablady

<small>[ September 12, 2003, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: lablady ]</small>

I am also popping in to say hello to everyone. I hope all is going well with you all. I am still lost and hopeing to find my way soon. I don't know how to say it, I feel him comeing home. I fill it real strong! I can not explain it. I don't know? Or he is ready to tell me something? What do I know as lost and hurting like I am.

He just seams more happy this past few weeks and why I do not know? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Before that he was always complaining that his stomach was sick , he had heart burn etc etc.

I did go to the air show with them. I told him I didn't need to go and he was upset. He turned and told Y son to tell mommy she needs to go. Low blow I told H. H just had that half a$$smile on his face (that gets me all the time) and said, I want you to go to. I went and had a good time, but I hate that then we get home and he leaves. It makes it like a dream. Then I get pissed at myself for letting him pull me in again and I hit myself with the 2x4. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I don't know I miss us and us as a family. I don't see what she has and what he wants. Don't give up on me guys I'll get my sh@t together. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Lablady,

I got invited to my high school prom by a boy who was madly in love with me; it wasn't reciprocated. My mother told me: "Go to the prom with X. You'll always remember your high school prom; it won't matter that you went with X." It was really true.

Similarly, if your kids go to the funeral, they'll always remember that they went -- they'll forget about the difficult circumstances.

Thanks, all, for the kind comments. I wish I could talk myself into being civil. I had an awful evening -- H's name seemed to be on everyone's lips; especially if they were near me. I didn't say a word ... but my thoughts were awful.

Oh, and apropos of H being a serial killer, yes, he does have a "problem." He's ended each of his M's with an A. He needs a shrink, bad.

This time may be different. It looks like A may dissolve without an M. If so, he'll be out on his rump for the first time.

Thanks, Lablady, and I hope I run into you, too. Along with a ton of other people on this board!

Here's a thing that I'm noticing on this, and many of the other threads on this board. Our hearts (and I most definitely include mine!) are so hurt that we spend a great deal of time throwing around LBs about our spouses.

- Angry outbursts (usually called "venting")

- Disrespectful judgments (he/she's deep in the fog! Look at this new shameful/awful behavior!)

- Selfish demands (why can't he/she just grow up and start paying attention to me?)

- Independent behavior (I'm just going to do X without him/her; I'm tired of his/her crap.)

- Dishonesty (Why should I tell him/her how I feel? He/she will just do X!)

And yet, we treat each other and much of the rest of the world with kindness and radically honest 2x4s. I certainly do.

I'm trying to puzzle out what this means. It's =my= behavior, not WP's behavior, that I'm thinking about. Why treat WP differently from the rest of the world?

Sure, I know the answer. Because WP has hurt me very badly, and is continuing behaviors that are extremely painful to me.

But it also tells me something about me. About the seeds of hurt and anger and fear that were in me to begin with, that have grown into giant real-world problems.

A.M. and Lablady, your interchange got me thinking about all this. If I choose to go to an event with WP, or where WP will be present, and I end up upset about something that she does, is that my fault for going, her fault for doing whatever it is, or my fault for being upset by it?

I think it's all of them. We're 50% responsible for every interaction we have with another person on that very basic level. We choose to interact and react. We have many millions of choices about how we can do that.

So does the other person.

Since I can only change myself and my actions, how do I then apply it to situations that are painful to me? I can decide not to enter those situations. Or I can learn not to be hurt by what occurs in them.

Also, I always have a choice about how to act. If I am hurt, I can lash out, walk away, or simply turn the other cheek with a smile and a few words that will make the other person laugh. And the honesty to say "I am hurt when you do X. How would you feel about doing Y instead?"

And it seems to me that the best of those is the last -- a smile, laughter, honesty. That, it seems to me, is the heart of Plan A.

It's just that we're not perfect. And so I think the next-best is to walk away -- to create no worse than that, when you can't create anything better. That's the heart of Plan B.

And the worst is lashing out, because that's simply punishing the other person for the hurt you feel.

I don't know if any of this helps anyone else, but it's part of a though process I'm trying to work my way through. How am -I- going to act and live in the future? Who am -I- going to be? How close to (godliness, buddhahood, enlightenment, whatever) can I come?

It's not a question of where my head will end up. It's a question of how much evil I can replace with purity and good in my own soul.

J -

I'm thinking along the same lines as you regarding MY behavior now and in the future. I like your 3 possible choices for how to act/react to the WP. The part about being hurt and turning the other cheek as the best way to act is the way I've tried to live my life. In fact, having other, less charitable thoughts toward WH cluttering up my mind has been one of the worst parts about the A. I like myself when I live in a loving way, I know I'm being tested now, and I want to get back to living in love again soon.

What to do about someone who has caused me great hurt? For now, it's Plan B, your second choice on the list. I'm still struggling with the concept of boundaries. If I put boundaries up am I limiting my ability to live in the charitable way I prefer? In the past several weeks I have had increasing incidents of pure joy, feeling at peace in the world, and at one with whatever connects us. These incidents were even more frequent before D-day, but I am encouraged that I'm getting back to "me" again. When these joyous feelings come over me, I am not focused on WH's betrayal. It doesn't matter, for I am whole, and I am filled with a greater love. I like this feeling, and no, I don't think I'm bipolar, LOL.

So, what now? The feelings of pure joy are not long in duration, and I don't expect to live in ecstacy all the time, so most of the time I live in the "real" world. Here I am not capable of thinking of WH with that form of open love. And the clincher is, I'm not sure I should.

In the Dalai Llama's "Ethics for a New Millennium", one concept is that of true happiness. To paraphrase, "only ethical behavior brings true happiness". I think most of us would agree that A's are a form of unethical behavior. To act without considering one's impact on others is to potentially bring suffering to others, as an A certainly does. Some people don't understand this, my WH is on his third A, and probably hasn't learned this lesson, and therefore may not find true happiness. Knowing that he hasn't learned from his past, don't I have the right and/or responsibility to myself to put some boundaries between us? If we never reconcile, can I keep him at a distance to prevent him from disrespecting me? Is it possible for me to feel the agape type love for my WH, as a fellow human being, and still not interact with him except on rare occaisions involving family?

I'm asking myself these questions. I am moving forward, and I want to go in the right direction.

Lablady

Hello Lablady and J,

The problem is (or one of the problems, anyway) that we can't live life according to feelings. That's what my H is doing. I don't "feel" like going anywhere where I will run into H, but the truth is, in a small, tight community, that means retreating into my bedroom.

Also, quite frankly, I am willing to put pressure on the A, even if it causes me some discomfort.

So my options are not many. Moving will be an option when the kids are finished with high school.

I have lots of thoughts, can't write them right now.

A.M.-

Agreed, to live life according to feelings only is what got our WS's into trouble to begin with, especially the base level feelings of romantic love and lust.

Lablady

Lablady -

Thanks for what you wrote! You're in sync with me at the moment, that much is for sure! If I responded to everything I'd like to say I agreed with and then added my own thoughts, I'd be here all night. Sadly, there's a proposal (for work, not the other kind) awaiting my attention, so I'll focus on the stuff that really got my attention.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In fact, having other, less charitable thoughts toward WH cluttering up my mind has been one of the worst parts about the A. I like myself when I live in a loving way, I know I'm being tested now, and I want to get back to living in love again soon.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ooo, excellent point. I'm doing my darndest to de-clutter my life, and I know for a fact that the ongoing debates/arguments/emotions/thoughts about WP are a real impediment to that process!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm still struggling with the concept of boundaries. If I put boundaries up am I limiting my ability to live in the charitable way I prefer?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I struggle with this one, too. And also with how justice and love come together in a situation like mine. I read a bit in the LA airport while waiting for a plane the other day. It was in a book about anger, written by the guy who wrote "Living Christ, Living Buddha." I wanted to buy the book, but was already entirely too weighed down. In any case, the bit that really caught my eye was a bit about criminals. Basically, it was about how policemen live a life of great uncertainty and fear -- they do not know whether they're going to go home at the end of the day or not. And the criminals they have to deal with are extremely dangerous some of the time.

So the question is, how do you deal with a situation like that? Do you get angry at the criminals and treat them badly, if you're a policeman? No, the better choice is to view them with compassion, even while you're locking them up to protect yourself and the rest of society.

So.... It seems to me that if someone is dangerous, it's quite all right to set up boundaries that make it impossible for them to cause the damage that they have caused in the past. As with all people, though, it should be done with compassion instead of with anger.

There was another excellent passage in the book, all about how your anger is -yours-, like a fussy baby is yours. (Having an 8 month old DD, this made a great deal of sense to me!) And you treat it the same way. When your anger is screaming its head off, you don't ignore it or push it aside or anything like that. Nor do you let it run around and stomp on things and wreak havoc. (DD is -not- allowed to squirm away before I'm done changing her, no matter how angry she is!)

Instead, just like a DD who's gotten too tired and too hungry and has lost it, you comfort your anger. Breathing exercises and paying attention to the anger, without letting it act in ways that are harmful to you or others.

Darned difficult to do, and I try to do it in private where my anger can come out and scream incoherently if it needs to. But it's -my- anger and there's no reason to punish anyone else with it.

And the same is true for the rest of my emotions. It's my hurt. It's my fear. It's my rage. It's my sorrow. It's my grief. It's my devastation.

People can share the burden if they're not the cause of the emotion. But the people who hurt us? If they've hurt us badly enough that we can't tell them gently and then make them laugh, well, then it's appropriate to set up a boundary between you. To protect you from the hurt, and to protect them as well, because you're no longer able to act with compassion. It's your imperfection, but that's all the more reason to create those boundaries.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, what now? The feelings of pure joy are not long in duration, and I don't expect to live in ecstacy all the time, so most of the time I live in the "real" world. Here I am not capable of thinking of WH with that form of open love. And the clincher is, I'm not sure I should.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know how you feel. I've felt that same joy on some occasions in the last few months, times when I've finally been fully free of fear and fully free of head-clutter. I'm not able to think of WP in that way without also immediately raising the boundaries that protect me, either. For now, while I know that there is that anger and hurt needing care and attention, I don't think there's anything wrong with letting my previous open love for my WP die away into something less joyful. That joy is, for me, too easily transmuted into devastating pain and hatred. I'm sure the Dalai Lama would be talking to me about attachment right about now.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"only ethical behavior brings true happiness"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Golly. I think I'll just send that one over to our former MC. He was, and is, totally into "Do what's right for you." And in listening to your emotions. Which, as I'm pretty sure we've all learned from our own emotions, is a LOUSY thing to do sometimes!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it possible for me to feel the agape type love for my WH, as a fellow human being, and still not interact with him except on rare occaisions involving family? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. It is possible. But it's awfully difficult. At least, that's my take on it.

Well, another milestone in A. WW moved into her own apartment. Looks like one more step in her journey to be free of me. Waiting to see when and how she will contact me to get all of her clothes, etc. out of our house.
My thought today: Would I want to spend the rest of my life married to someone who doesn't want to be here?

Just a bump. How are all of the Plan B'ers doing?

Hello 23down -

This has been a busy week for me, I haven't had time to post much. I'm glad you resurrected this thread, it's a great idea to be able to keep up on each others' lives.

Nothing significant happening here, just lots and lots of thoughts. What do I really want? How long will I wait for WH to try to reconcile, if he ever does, stuff like that. I'm still praying for wisdom to do the right thing. In the distant fuzzy future I can see a life that has my family intact again, and right now that's all I want. I've overcome many of my fears of being alone these past 8 months and I've glimpsed the possibility of a happy life without WH. The only thing I haven't been able to let go of is the concept of family, complete with parents, children, and someday grandchildren. Right now my kids are backing me, communicating with me, as your Ds are 23down. I'm grateful for their support, but something is missing. We used to be 4 people and now we are 3. I can live with this, build a new family if we have to, but I'd like so much to have all 4 of us together again.

Those are my ramblings for this morning. I have no power from the storm yesterday, and I don't know how long my laptop battery will last. How is everyone else doing? Shugah, if you're reading, I'll post to you today hopefully. Hang in there. Hugs to all.

Lablady

Started reading some of the posts on this thread and started wondering if I was really on the right thread. Plan B right?

I see alot of doing partial plan B's, modified plan B's or starting over and over again. Isn't plan B for the BS to emotionally separate him/herself from WS and to ensure WS is not cake eating/fencesitting? Seems that every time you speak to the WS you are enabling them and also tearing yourself up emotionally...

I recently went into plan B. I hope I don't break down and let her bring me down again, until she is ready to reconcile. I'm not saying I don't have feelings and emotions, but being in plan B seems to help me.

I celebrated my 17th anniversary 2 days ago. I took off from work because I thought I'd really be depressed. What really surprised me was I didn't feel that bad. Yes, I cried a little but not like I had leading up to plan B. I feel alot stronger and less needy...

Yesterday my oldest D had a football game. She is a cheerleader. I knew my WW and OM were gonna be there and I wasn't going to go. I decided at the last minute that I wasn't gonna let them dictate what I did. Its kinda funny. When W and I went to football games together, we'd sit right behind the cheerleaders so my D knew we were supporting her. Well, that's where I sat, but WW and OM were nowhere to be seen. Seems they are embarrased or at least WW is embarrassed to be in public where friends and acquaintences are, especially when D's are present. HMM, can this be real love if they are embarrassed to be in public together?

Anyway, before the football game, my work had a going away bowling party for several people leaving. I wasn't going to go to that either, but I didn't want to sit at home and be depressed. So I went and actually had a really good time. That, added to the football game, made for a good day yesterday!!!! I'm sure not all days are gonna be that good, but the really bad days are getting fewer and farther in between.

My advice to all--do a true plan B, if not, go back into plan A and stay there until you are ready to really go into plan B. I know I'm emotionally better off at this point....

BS(ME)38
WW 36
D's 13 & 16
DDay 3JUL03
WW moved in with OM 16JUL03
Recently started plan B and feeling better!!!

lost-without-her-

Glad you found your way to this thread. I agree that Plan B has been the most sane way to go in this insane world of A's we find ourselves in. During the past 8 months in PB I've learned so much about myself, what I'm capable of on my own. It seems you're having a similar experience.

Your D must have been so glad you went to her game! At least one of her parents is there for her. Do your D's live with you? How are they handling their mother's A? Other posters have mentioned how their WS's were embarassed to be seen in public with the OP, even at their kids' events. At my D's college graduation this May, WH sat in the control booth above everyone else, he couldn't face me, our S, or my parents. WS's can't take the guilt. Makes you wonder how they can be happy.

My 25th anniversary passed in May, I also had a tolerable day, minimal sadness. The days leading up to it were worse, I was anticipating more emotions.

This MB site has been so helpful! Keep posting, and have a good weekend.

Lablady

Me BS 48
WH 48
M 25 yrs
S 25, D 23
OW 45 widow/coworker
D-day 1&2 1989
D-day 3 7/02
WH moves in w/OW New Year's Eve
Plan B letter sent 2/03
Very minimal contact
WH calls 8/03, wants to know if there is a possibility we can have a relationship in the future
He hasn't called back, I'm moving forward

PlanB is PlanB. Some here may disagree, but I believe that if you are going to go PlanB you must go all the way. No partial or modified PlanB. PlanB is NC, and it is hard. I have been in PlanB for a little over a month now with absolutely NC, and every day I wonder if it is the right thing to do.
Why do I stick with it? Because after a good PlanA it is the next step. Because I have read the success stories of others. Mostly it helps me feel I am doing something instead of letting events control me.
Do I believe that PlanB is going to bring my WW home? Not really, I think she is gone. At one time I thought that even if my M was over that it might at least allow WW and I to remain friends. No longer. My hope now is that PlanB will help me to get through this with dignity and grace, knowing that I did everything I could to save my M.
Sorry for the down post, some days are just worse than others.

Some days are more down than others - I certainly agree with that.
Today I even had another good hard cry. One of those heart wrenching, gasping for breath, stomach hurts moments where I pray that Jesus would come soon. Hid in the bedroom to do it, since the boys were home.
Afterwards I always ask myself the same questions:
Why do I want him to come back? He has caused great pain for all of us.
How can he spend only about 4 hours a week with his boys? He cried at their birth. he has coached their baseball teams for years. And now, he saw the younger boy for about 4 hours yesterday. The older boy for about 1/2 hour today giving him a ride. How can that be enough?
I keep saying - I don't care what he does to me, I care more about the boys. But today I asked myself why I don't care more about myself. Why do I deserve this treatment? All I ever did love him.