Hi all,

Thought I would revive the thread before it gets so far back.It's an important one especially for those thinking about making the transition.

As for me,I am in Plan B for 5 weeks now and doing well,a few angry days built up but have since regained my composure.Some cracks forming in the WH/HW(homewrecker) situation and WH misses talking to me and sees my face in his dreams,feels guilty about how ugly this all turned out so far,according to SIL.So,we shall see how things proceed.Feeling safe and strong in this plan.

O <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ February 06, 2004, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

Oops, big fall off the plan B wagon. Yesterday I went shopping at Trader Joe's which is right by where my H lives.

He has been writing me letters that he does not want to lose me, and would like to reconcile. He said he is desperate to talk to me in person.

Since it was a work day for him, I decided to drive by his house and get address so I can forward his mail. Okay everyone, you know what happened next. No surprises here.

Yep I drove up and guess what, H was home and OW's car was in front of his house. So I did a repeat of two weeks ago. I knocked on door, roommate let me in. I walked up the stairs to his room and knocked. They were having sex.

So I said Larry "This is your wife. I got your letter that you wanted to talk to me in person about getting back together, and here I am." So he came out, putting on his belt. I told him to get ask OW to leave, which he did.

Then I told him that this has gone far enough. I asked him to be honest with me. He said he loves both of us, but I am "more his speed". She has cheated on her H 3 times and is flaky.

I babbeled to him for awhile and learned that he is going to be offered an early retirement bonus of $25,000. and OW wants him to move with her to Arizona. I asked him to go sign our settlement agreement. He said he needs more time.

So today I went and filed for separation. I did not want to do this, but I have to protect myself financially. H is content to sit on the fence. But he could retire, spend all his money on OW, cut me out of any pension, and go merrily along. I feel great that I finally did something.

I'm absolutely amazed that you stayed calm through all of this. Now... would you mind going dark again? You're scaring me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Just J -
Thanks to the support here and the MB plans I am doing fine. Went and filed separation papers and then got ready to go camping this weekend with my boys.

I never wanted this, but have to take care of myself. He is worried about OW. I have sympathy for the position they got themselves into, but not so much that I am going to let him ruin my future.

I still hope to reconcile, but know that I can have a wonderful life without him. Afterall, since I've been in Plan B, it has been great.

Yes I will go back to Plan B. There is no point in talking to him or showing up at his place. All I find is him and OW in bed. So I will just realize that is the way it is.

I get a call from WW the other night. It was the day after my birthday. She left a messege on the answering machine because I don't answer the phone no matter who is calling. Anyway, she says, I just wanted to wish you a late happy birthday and was wondering if you wanted to file taxes jointly or what? Nice happy birthday messege. She didn't even break the sentence up. It was all one long happy birtday taxes... What a wonderful W I have..........

Do you sense a little bitterness here? Well, if not, then you should. I am losing hope, losing respect, and losing love for my W! I am in a rut!!!

Been bindging alot lately. Gained about 10 to 12 pounds in the last month. I don't like myself right now. I feel terrible. I haven't been taking care of the house like I was and I am just not a very happy person right now.

I'm hoping this will end soon. Either my rut or my marriage or both. I'm not sure which. I know I feel like this right now, but tomorrow I may feel totally different. But for poop on her!!!

Oh LWH,

Sorry to hear you not doing well right now.Are you on AD's? I don't remember.It doesn't sound as though you are taking care of YOU which you should be and also,maybe this phone message helped set you back a bit or maybe you have been in more contact with WW than you should be?

Just wondering.If she is leaving you a lot of messages and you listen to them,that is being in contact and can set you back.How are things with your daughter's? Can you get out with them more and do things instead of sitting around and moping and eating,which it sounds like you might be and it isn't helping you.I hope that doesn't sound offensive but you said you have gained weight and feel terrible,all part of self pity and keeping yourself walled up in mind,body and spirit.Any status report on WW and OM?

I hope tomorrow is a brighter one.Just thinking of you.

O <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hello - I used to post here but have only lurked for many months now. I am the BS. I've been in Plan B for a year, essentially living alone for a year and a half. WH has been living with OW since 12/31/02 - yep, a whole year and then some. It's been a strict Plan B, even DS (25) and DD (23) refused to engage their father in his adulterous life.

Well, you guessed it, WH called last week to tell me he had moved out of the apartment he shared w/OW and was moving into his mother's house. He knew ending his A was the only way his family would have anything to do with him. He said he couldn't stand the isolation any more and wanted to open the lines of communication.

Since then we have had 2 long phone conversations and I am disturbed by what WH has to say. He and OW never had a fight, and if our kids had been willing to participate in his new life, he'd still be with OW. He's still blaming his A on how badly I treated him in our marriage. The worst part is that he won't concede that living a more ethical life is the key to happiness and real inner peace.

This last one is unacceptable to me. If WH is still in the fog, then he has been in the fog for as long as I've known him. This is not his first A. He had 1 PA and 1 EA about 15 years ago. We never sought counseling, I never told anyone, and I have been asking him ever since how he got from "I know it's wrong" to "but I'm going to do it anyway". He has not been able to answer that question. Now, after another A, repeating the pain and sorrow, he is still saying the same things he's said for years. I honestly thought he would have gotten a wake-up call.

I realize that if I agree to try and reconcile our marriage, I will be dealing with the same WH. He doesn't get it. He doesn't understand that if he makes ethical choices he will greatly reduce the pain he causes himself and others and greatly increase his chances of being happy. It's that simple. I think I will be doing myself harm by re-engaging a person whose moral outlook is so different from mine.

Plan B has taught me that I can survive without WH - physically, emotionally, financially - thank you MB! One of the most valuable lessons I've learned has to do with boundaries. The last time I did the Enneagram, I was a type 9, conflict avoider, someone who sees many sides of a situation, very good mediator, very slow to take action. Well, now I'm not so shy about speaking up when something is wrong. There really are some things that are black and white (some of you must be saying "Duh"). I can justify setting boundaries with other people if I don't like what's happening. And that's exactly what is going on with WH now, I'm setting boundaries and I'm prepared to keep them up even if it means DV.

To all of you in Plan B, the technique works, don't give up hope. Complete isolation from the BS causes the WS great stress. In my case, I even stopped contact with my go-between, my MIL, partly because information about me was spilling over to WH, and vice versa. It wasn't until this information conduit was severed that I gained a realistic view of life w/o WH. Our children separating themselves from their father was also important, but I realize that this tact is not possible or even desirable for all cases. For me, Plan B didn't take away the dull pain I felt most days, sorry to admit that. It's only now, when I'm contemplating what comes next with WH, that I realize how strong I am. I've lived without him long enough to have the confidence to set my boundaries. Of course, there have been many joyous moments over the past year and a half, and the intense pain felt in those terrible months after D-day has long since disappeared. I'm not sure if Plan B has preserved the love I had left for WH, but I imagine that it would have been gone much sooner if I had stayed on the rollercoaster.

Thanks to anyone reading this post. Writing this has been very therapeutic, more than it would have been to write in a private journal.

Lablady

Me BS 48
WH 49
M 25 yrs
DS 25, DD 23
OW 46 widow/co-worker
D-day 7/02
WH moves in w/mother 9/02
WH moves in w/OW 12/31/02
Plan B 2/03, strict NC
8/03 WH calls to ask if there is a chance we can reconcile. I say maybe, end the A
2/3/04 WH calls to say A is ended, we'll see what's next

lablady-
Take your time. I almost let my H move back in. Everyone here was telling me No! No! Luckily for once I listened, because he still had OW. Keep your boundaries, and if you get tempted, post here and we will talk you out of it.

My H says the right things, but his actions don't follow. He would like nothing more than to get back home, and still have OW.

Thanks for the pep talk Believer. I have no intention of letting WH move back home. In fact I haven't even seen him yet. I'm not ready. My dilemma is whether or not to have ANYTHING to do with him, or to just DV him. We have some fundamental ethical differences and probably always have had them. After all the proof that his way doesn't work, he's still clinging to it. I'm not in a rush to proceed with any action, I'm just getting my deepest thoughts together to make sure I know what I want when it's time to make a move. There are some things I won't compromise on. The part I wrote about Plan B was to let others know that it works. In my case, WH wants to come back to the marriage, but unfortunately he hasn't heard the wake-up call.

Question for you, Believer. You've been in a long-term marriage, too. Are there any fundamental differences between you and your WH? If so, do you think these differences have contributed to the A and/or your WH not leaving the OW? I guess I mean things like you go to church and he doesn't (or vice versa), he believes it's OK to steal from his job, and you would never even bring home a pen, stuff like that. BTW, I'm glad you filed for a separation agreement, I wish I had. At least you'll know where you stand financially. So, back to Plan B for you? It's a godsend, isn't it?

Lablady

Lablady-
My H has always been a moral, ethical, good man. That is what makes this so hard. We have attended church together and been active in different ministries.

Last year we were working at a stand-down for mentally ill veterans. They all just loved my H. One kept calling H's name to cover him up at bedtime.

My H has always helped anyone and everyone, friends and strangers alike. But when I found out, he left me sobbing and shaking - he had to go see OW.

Lablady, my thought is that you should let your husband have a chance or two. I know how badly you've been hurt, and it's terribly hard to consider letting down those walls and being vulnerable to a man who is still angry and a mess.

So... let him know that. And while you're at it, you might want to look at the situation depicted in Surviving an Affair. Pretty similar, really, where she only came back because the affair partner dumped her.

One of the tenets of Judaism is that it's okay if practice comes before understanding. This might be a time to consider that -- even if his understanding is lacking, can he walk the walk?

Believer - It truly is incomprehensible, isn't it, that a person like your WH can make such poor choices to get himself into an A. Maybe he really was abducted by aliens. He won't make a break with OW, though, until it is too uncomfortable for him to stay with her. That's where Plan B works. It makes the WS very uncommfortable. Once you have your separation agreement signed you can go very dark, find some peace for yourself, and let the A die by itself.

Just J - yours has always been the voice of generosity, and what you said makes me think - a lot. I can envision a good life with WH, except for the minefields getting there. WH has left himself an "out" by seeing his R with OW as oh-so-perfect. In his mind, the only reason he left her is because the rest of his family (ie. his kids, not me) were not down with it. I asked if he thought he could go back to her, he said he didn't know. That means she'd take him back as long as she hadn't gotten into another R before he asked her. When things, even normal things, are bad between us, WH will be able to fantasize about OW and what he gave up to be in a M he doesn't really want. It's grim.

Somewhere on one of Cerri's threads I read that the only time a BS can demand anything is during the negotiation of a WS returning home (I hope I'm getting that right). Well, I told WH that in order for me to take him back he will have to restructure his moral system to be more compatible with mine, and to vow that he will do whatever it takes for as long as it takes to make up for what he's done. He didn't like either of these, but I will not compromise here. He's a repeat offender, something's got to change. The saddest part is that, if he doesn't change, he will be doomed to go through this agony again with his next partner, so why not do the hard work and grow up now?

It's possible that he's given up already, he was supposed to call today and hasn't. I wouldn't be surprised if he went back to OW yesterday, 4 whole days after leaving her. Reading so many stories on MB I realize that WS setbacks are common. Withdrawal is hard, but I've waited a year and a half for WH to leave OW, I've done my part, now I feel it's up to him to put in some effort. If he's able to "walk the walk", I'll be willing to wait for the understanding to follow. Thanks for reminding me of that.

Lablady

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lablady:
<strong>Somewhere on one of Cerri's threads I read that the only time a BS can demand anything is during the negotiation of a WS returning home (I hope I'm getting that right). Well, I told WH that in order for me to take him back he will have to restructure his moral system to be more compatible with mine, and to vow that he will do whatever it takes for as long as it takes to make up for what he's done. He didn't like either of these, but I will not compromise here.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lablady, you got it right. It is during this stage that you can establish your rules...your boundaries. Later, once you are living together and working on recovery, the Policy of Join Agreement comes into play and everything must be negotiated.

At this point, you are in the driver's seat. You lay out exactly what it will take from him for you to accept him back in your life.

What I would encourage, however, is that you give him VERY specific rules. In other words, what exactly are you meaning when you tell him you want "his moral system to be more compatible with yours?" And, "to vow that he will do whatever it takes for as long as it takes to make up for what he's done." That last one is probably pretty scary to him, because "whatever it takes" is extremely vague and he doesn't know what you may ask of him...to make up for what he's done.

Lablady, remember that men and women think and act differently. Men won't ask for directions <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> or explanations of what you mean. Women on the other hand, tend to speak in generalities and get frustrated when the men in their lives don't "get it." So chances are the reason he didn't seem to like what you said is simply that he didn't understand it.

Get specific. Do you want him to go to church and get involved in mens' groups there? What do you mean by morals? Tell him. Write it out for yourself first. Make a list of what you require.

Now one final comment: I personally don't think there is anything a WS can do to "make up for" what they have done. What's done is done...it is history. What they can do, however, is live a totally open life, full of honesty. They can, through their actions - by voluntarily giving you honesty, openness, time, protection, SHOW you that they are repentent and want to love you and remain commited to you the rest of their days.

*Sparkle* -
Thanks for your reply. Although I read it last night, I had another long phone convo w/WH and couldn't post til now.

I think my biggest problem is that I expected WH to change and he hasn't. I'm disappointed that coming so close to losing his family hasn't made him more like the person I WANT to be married to.

I need total honesty if I'm going to get close to him again, and not just about his A's. I mean honesty with himself. There are posters here, WS's, who may not have all the answers but who at least recognize that they have low self esteem issues, or that they will have to learn to "self soothe" when life gets rough. My WH doesn't get that, and continues to explain his behavior by saying that he needs a higher level of intimacy with me or he is not satisfied, and will not be able to come back to the marriage. Well, I have to feel safe to allow myself to be close to him, and his erratic behavior and ability to make poor choices make me feel very unsafe. JL has a better explanation of this on SG's thread.

Sparkle, you're right, I will have to be more specific setting up the ground rules with WH. You're also right about the past being the past and there's nothing that can be done to make up for it.

Lablady

Lablady,

I hear you, I really, really hear you about the honesty issue. Without that, there is no hope at all. Honesty from my WP has been a major issue throughout our marriage.

I too will require a total commitment to it before I am interested in recovery. I ask myself, what kind of steps can be taken to prove that the honesty is there? You should ask yourself the same questions.

While we don't want to set "traps" for our WPs, there has to be some way to prove that what they are giving us is the complete truth. I guess accountability is step one. Voluntarily giving up information about their whereabouts, schedules, who they are with, where the money is spent, who they are calling on the phone, etc. Beyond that, I keep getting told that we have to create an environment where they feel it is "safe" to be honest. Pepperband had some interesting perspectives on this point and I will see if I can find her post.

Keep posting, Lablady, you know we are here for you. And you guys for me as well.

Thanks again *Sparkle* for your encouragement. I've spent some time today trying to write down exactly what I want from WH and it's hard. There's so much. I'm just not ready to see him yet.

Technically, I'm not in Plan B anymore, so I don't belong on this thread ! I will start my own thread soon. I just wanted to let everyone who is in Plan B know that it works, keep it up, there really is no better alternative.

Lablady

<small>[ February 09, 2004, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: lablady ]</small>

Lablady,

I just tried to email you...I am someone you knew in a past MB life - LOL!

But your email addy is not longer valid.

If you want to email me at sparkle_mb@hotmail.com, I will tell you who I am!

Hello,although I mostly just lurk I've posted a few times my story is long with many turns, so I'm just gonna summerize it as best as I could.

I have been married 8 yrs together 14yrs ever since I was 16. My marriage has been ok it could have been way better I would have to say mostly on my part I lose patience fairly quickly with H annoying habits,his drinking and coming home late on weekends. he was a good husband he tried to please me in what he could (or what he thought was important). we had seperated a few times but never for longer then 2wks we always got back together.

Sometime in Nov I noticed a weird # on his cell.I confronted him about and he denied it sort of, so I called the # to confirm my suspicions sure enough it was the # of an 18 yr old girl he was working with.H said she was just doing him a favor to help him look for a room to rent(yea whatever).

A few weeks after that I started noticing H acting cold with me he would not sleep with me or have any physical contact(wks prior to this we were actively trying to have another baby).
one day he come home upset blaming me that his 18yr old coworker now OW was quitting the job because she was afraid of me supposely I was trying to contact her ( I tried once but never got to talk to her). She did quit but it was because her mother made her quit, she knew something was going on with my H and her daughter (meanwhile I was believing him when he was saying he would never get involved with an 18 yr old I had no reason not to trust him, he had never cheated up until then.They had secrectly been seeing eachother, OW had been going to his job, even after she quit to see him I had no clue.One night he went out drinking and never made it home til the other morining at 7:00am I kicked him out.weeks later he confessed he had spent the night with OW, but made it seem as it was not the 18 yr,but OW he had met a while back. he never confessed it was the 18 yr old until I confronted them together it was a big mess it even got physical OW got hit by me,(it was not worth it.) All he could say was that she treated him better that's why he was with her and I had pushed him to cheat that he didn't want to( yea right).Immediatly after the confrontation I went into plan B I had tried plan A for a short while but all he would do was downgrade and insult me I got tired. So I got my proof about them and went straight to plan B.

That's been for about 5 wks now. I have been working on me losing weight and being with my son
although it has been very very hard to get H off my mind wondering what they were doing but I kept away.He did not even bother to contact his son all this time. up until we had the court date for child support last wk. We talked about when he would have his son and that I didn't want OW around my son (not that it might be possible because she lives with him now, her mom kicked her out so she went to him.)So now when H has our son on weekends they spend it like a family since she to has a son 1 1/2 yrs old. I did express to my H how I felt about it he just shrugged it off, however I do know he is embarresed somewhat of what he did because he does not go visit his family. when I told him to take our son to see his aunts he said he didn't know.I can more or less read him by his expressions he doesn't seem too happy since his young OW (he's 34) follows him everywhere. I also detected some jealousy on his part when we went to court a male friend of mine called my cell we spoke for a while. H stayed by me listening to the conversation after I hung up he asked me if I had a male friend already. I told him just a friend nothing more.

H went straight to his sister to tell them I was already talking to someone else,she told him he did alot worse by what he did. and again on Sat he threw it in my face about my male friend. I have to admit it feels good that he thinks it might be more and that it bothers him.

Although inside I die to have him in my arms. I will stick to plan B with minimal contact only when he has our son. until he wakes up from the limbo and fantasy world that he is living in.
I asked him how it felt to babysit all day since OW is still in high school(he takes her to school)she also does not work or drive( her taxi too) so he provides for her and for her son whenever she has him,the look on his face to embarresed to say anything he just looked at the floor.

Hopefully he will wake up soon....

Hey Lablady,

You've Got Mail!

OK, earlier I promised you that I would try to find the stuff Pepperband wrote about lying. I find it very interesting.

About Lying

You said that you are disappointed that coming so close to losing his family has not made him into the person you WANT to be married to. Have you honestly told him what your expectations are?

It seems to me that you are on square one and he is on square Z. One of you is trying to communicate in letters and the other in numbers. You've got to learn to communicate in the same language.

I think that before you even consider trying to get close to each other again MC is a must.

JM -VH - O.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi everyone. I am still on the MB program, not quite sure which plan though. Somewhere between Plan A, Plan B, and Divorce.

I'm supposed to be in Plan B. Ever since H made contact in December, he keeps showing up. He came over Sunday afternoon. I was cleaning the bathroom. He just let himself in with his key. (In California, you can't change locks). He said he wanted to reconcile. But wants to move back in and then work on the marriage. I asked him to leave, and he did.

Today I woke up with an abscessed tooth. My face was swollen and eye swollen shut. So I went over to his house to see if he had any money so that I could go to dentist. He offered me $16.00. I asked him if he had a credit card I could use. He said no. I asked if he would let me see in his wallet to check. He refused.

Then he came over and offered to take me to dentist. While we were waiting for dentist to open, I let him read on this site about "How an affair should end." He said a couple of points really applied to him and he would think it over.

So I went to dentist. I told H I would write a check which would cause the house payment to bounce. He said he will give me some money Friday.

Well I went to dentist and had to have 3 teeth pulled and a root canal. By the way, WH said he would stop by to check how I was doing after work. Guess what, he didn't show up. And I know exactly why, he doesn't want to give me any money on payday. He will just "disappear" again for awhile.