J - I'm so sorry to have missed your thread and your earlier sadness, but really glad to hear that your custody issues are sorting themselves out <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I can hear the relief in your message that this is a step towards the formal recognition you need to be part of your D's life and that noone can take away from you.

You know, it's funny with WP how they all act in the same way - I want my cake and I want to eat it. Bad J for not talking to me, it's all your fault. Of course, we should be talking and I'm perfectly entitled to another R with someone else, and I don't care if I'm trying to keep you from you D and that might affect you - put like that I even made myself laugh!!!!!

J, keep going, keep going. I don't know what else to say but that I am routing for you here in London and hope that the legal processes continue to run smoothly so at least that burden will be lifted from you and your R with your D will be safe.

Wishing you well
Lisa

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!
Joint Custody of BabyDoll!
WaHoo!!!

I am so happy for you J.
You have been so blessed to have found such a lawyer. I know that where I live presently, you would not have stood a snow ball's chance in h*ll. Bible Belt, ya know. Up where I lived before, you would have done just fine!!!!

Bless you J, you are one strong person! May you and BabyDoll be forever bless w/ a wonderful relationship.

Fulfilling your ENs thru a baby??
Give me a break!
Any Parent who loves their child dearly knows that you must be vitually sacrificing of your own life initially. It does seem to some people that your life revolves around the baby. Babies require so much love, emotion, attention....

You are too balanced and smart to go the route of living vicariously thru BabyDoll.

May the Goddess bless you and BabyDoll, and yes, prayers to you both.

Do you find your life getting easier now that the custody papers are signed? Do you find that letting go of your partner easier, too?

xo
Hyaptia

Heya, Hypatia and Lisa. Thanks for the responses.

BabyJ and I are just taking things one day at a time. Mostly when we're together, I'm concerned with keeping her entertained and out of trouble. I don't really know whether life is easier yet, because I don't trust that the agreement will really hold against the next time WP loses it again. I just have to wait and see. My lawyer swears that it will.

But... I just do not know. She's broken every promise she ever made to me, and there weren't any consequences for her. She's broken two legal contracts, and still no consequences. So why should I believe that she can't continue to punish me for crimes I didn't commit?

Is it easier for me to let go of WP? Well. Yes and no. Yes because my evaluation of her character has changed so much. And no, because even though it's changed so dramatically, I still believe that the WP I loved for so long is still there somewhere.

I still don't know how to integrate the two views. On the one hand, there is the beautiful, gentle, laughing one, the one who serves on the ethics board for her profession. On the other, there is the one who is weak, who sways in the wind of other people's opinions, who decided that it wasn't a sin to try to destroy my relationship with DD. I don't know how to integrate them. I may never know.

So letting go? It's just a strange thing in my head, full of hurt but also full of relief.

I'm told that this is about my soul, not about my head or heart. I tend to agree. I don't know what's going to happen to my soul yet. I hope I come out of this a better person. But there are demons that I have to wrestle before I'm done.

In any case, in terms of day-to-day living, I just don't want to see WP. I'm considerably happier without having to interact with her. She regularly invades my boundaries these days, and I have not been strong enough to say no in clear enough fashion. Something to work on in the coming days.

Time for a change. Time to no longer be attached to the WP and OM's initials. So now I am Just J. Not very catchy. But it'll do.

Had a bit of a meltdown the last few days. I'm still waiting for the agreement to be sent to the courts and the petition for the adoption to be withdrawn, but it looks like it'll all get done.

I guess it's been pretty crazy in both lawyers' offices -- WP's lawyer's office manager's child died, my lawyer's child was sick, both lawyers had to go to court for emergency cases. (Emergencies in their worlds usually mean emergency custody in the case of child abuse or similar).

It's weird to think that there are so many things that are so much worse than my life.

Anyway, I melted down and finally did a transition where I was too upset to do anything but emote in the general direction of WP. Definitely some LBing on both sides, but also a small amount of communication. Very small, overall, but some nonetheless. In the middle of it I actually agreed that I wanted to be friends with WP. I also said that I didn't know whether I love her or hate her right now. She actually said she understood that. I was, and am, frankly amazed. She says she doesn't hate me. Which is not surprising, but leads to the question of what someone who -does- hate me might try to do!

So later when I called my lawyer and said, "What is -wrong- with me??? I just said I wanted to be friends with her!"

She laughed. And she said, "You're in a state, J. You're just in a state. You've just been to hell and back, so why should you expect to know what you want next? You love her, you hate her, you want to reconcile, you want to be friends, you want to kill her. You're human. This is part of being human." She made my trip to hell sound like a business trip, she said it so matter-of-factly. It made me laugh.

About all I could say in return was that I've never wanted to kill her, but otherwise she was pretty accurate. In the end, I wasn't upset about any one thing; it was more like all the pent-up emotions from the last few months were finally coming out all at once. I guess probably that'll happen a few more times before I'm finally free of them.

Right now I'm back to thinking that either way things turn out will be fine. I'll be very glad to do the work of reconciliation if I get the chance to. But I'll also be glad to do the work of not reconciling. They're both paths to continue my life, and that's what I'm really interested in right now. My life is continuing. I have bills to pay and a house that's really nice. I have a garden to plant for the spring and a daughter who is a flower in all environments. Life is worth revelling in again.

So, the thing that keeps coming back to me from this conversation was that WP said something about how now she wants to deal with "the real issues." I don't really know what she means; I guess there must be something in her psyche that she wants to address. I guess I feel like I'm dealing with my real issues. Protecting my daughter, understanding what hurts me and makes me afraid, building boundaries, and getting rid of the stinkin' thinking. I don't seem to need a therapist for that. Just contemplation and hard work, and some prayer.

And, of course, the pain that made it all necessary, without which I would not have nearly so much stinkin' thinking to excise.

In any case, I'm sitting on the edge of a hurricane tonight and DD is asleep upstairs. It's funny -- WP has been having a really hard time getting her to go down for naps and at night. So she asked the pediatrician about it and he gave sort of standard "put her in her crib and let her cry it out" advice.

I tried that this afternoon. God, it's awful. I've never done that before, and I've never really had any problems getting DD to go to sleep, either. I just ... well, I pay attention to her and what she seems to need. Tonight, she was still in total-wiggle-worm mode. So instead of putting her in the crib, I lay down with her on my bed. She climbed all over me while I lay there and made sure she didn't get too close to the edge of the bed. I felt like a gorilla or a lion like you see at the zoo -- wiggle-worm baby with somnolent adult who moves every minute or so when the baby gets too rambunctious.

And in about five minutes, she was lying still and headed for sleep. She knows how to go to sleep. She just needed more room to squirm around in, and to know that I'd keep her from getting too close to the edge. It felt like...

Well, this afternoon felt like I was fighting with DD. We were in conflict, struggling with one another. I was trying to force her to do what I wanted (and knew she needed!).

Tonight, it was so much more of a cooperative effort. I took the things that she was doing and worked into them in a way that redirected her energy into what I wanted her to do.

There are "hard" martial arts and "soft" martial arts. I doubt that many people would compare getting a baby to go to sleep with martial arts. But it seems to me that there's a principal that's important here, about how best to deal with energy that's directed in a way that you don't think is right, whether it's an attack on you or a kid who's too tired and too young to know how to direct it herself.

I'll spend more time thinking about this. I think Mortarman is a "hard" martial arts sort. I think my lawyer is, too. I think I'm a "soft" martial arts sort. (Right now, of course, I'm the size and shape of a giant bowl of pudding, making all comparisons to martial arts somewhat ridiculous! Ah, well. Someday I'll get back to kung fu or some other martial art. Not this week, but some week.)

You'll survive this like all of us did, one day at a time, just keep putting one foot in front of the other and doing the next right thing.

I have to say your comment about the doctor's advice about letting the baby cry it out in a crib just makes me NUTS. I have 3 kids - all three slept in my bed, snuggled with me from infancy. An 8 month old is NOT spoiled, an 8 month old cries because an 8 month old needs something - something that we ADULTS need at bedtime - but something we deny our kids!?!?!

I started moving my kids out of my bed when they were a little over a year old - onto a toddler mattress on the floor next to my bed. My 2 year old is now going to sleep at night in her own full sized bed, tucked in with her teddy bear and baby doll, in her own room, and she's NEVER been left to cry it out. (She's never had a crib either!)

I attended family course a few years ago, and the therapist that ran the adult half of the class told us parents that a child's personality is 75%formed in the first 18 months of their life. Denying a child what a child needs (babies cry because of NEEDS, not wants!) like that makes me totally crazy. Can ya tell? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Just J,

I have been reading all of your posts the past week and they have brought tears to my eyes. I have to say that you are an amazing woman who possesses a sense of calmness, dignity and clarity that many of us envy.

You are a beautiful soul and I think you are doing a great job.

Hugs and prayers that the pain will subside and spring will come into your life again.

-queen-

<small>[ September 19, 2003, 07:48 AM: Message edited by: Queen of a broken heart ]</small>

J -

First I want to thank you for your thoughtful response to my comments on the Plan B Support thread. The example you gave about the police lovingly putting prisoners behind bars has helped me to understand the need for boundaries. It's been a busy week for me, I hope to post more soon.

About your sweet baby doll, I agree with Bramblerose. When my kids were babies in 1978 and 80 I was also told by well-meaning "experts" to let them cry themselves to sleep. It felt so wrong! Both of my kids were home birth babies, so luckily I had access to other types of parental advice. One thing that I will always remember being told is that humans are the only animals that ignore the cries of their young. Every other mammal responds instictively and immediately to their babies' cries. That was enough for me. My kids, like Bramblerose's, slept with me until they moved to toddler beds. Neither one had sleep problems and it was the best way for me to care for them.

As for saying you want to be friends with WP, I can relate. It seems to be the most enlightened way to handle the situation. That's where the boundaries questions come in for me. Perhaps it's not fair to be so generous if being friends with WP hurts us. I'm still struggling with this.

J, you are such a beautiful person! Have a great day.

Lablady

Queen, Bramblerose, Lablady -

Thanks very much for your responses. I agree wholeheartedly with your thoughts about babies and their sleep habits. Co-sleeping is one of the ways that WP thought I was meeting my emotional needs with DD. I was really hurt by that -- I saw my mom co-sleep with both my brothers, and when each of those brothers got to be toddler age, they went into a room with a sibling (the first with me, then they shared). I -know- that co-sleeping is a perfectly normal, natural way to raise a baby, and it really hurt to be accused of something abnormal because of it.

In any case, WP won that battle when I moved out. She was determined that DD had to sleep in her crib, so once I was out, that was where she slept. I'm still sad about that.

Even so, though, I'm not going to put her in her crib and let her cry while I stand there and watch her. It's so much easier to work with her and get her energy directed in the way it needs to go. And it takes so much less time! I'd much rather spend ten or fifteen minutes with her winding down than spend an hour with her screaming. Much, much rather.

And Queen, thank you very much for your words about the Plan B thread. I'm doing a lot of thinking these days, and I try to put those thoughts into words. There's no guarantee that I'm right about anything (heck, I know I'm not!) but I figure the questions I have are the same ones that lots of people are struggling with.

For now, though, I'm struggling with a lack of electricity and what to do with the rest of the branches that are piled in the yard. Yay, Isabel. At least I have clean drinking water, a gas stove, and a gas hot water heater. If I learn to go to the grocery store every day and hand-wash all my clothes, I'm set up until cold weather arrives.

(And at the rate the power company is moving, it's a good thing, too.)

Time for a me update, simple though it will be.

I finally got power back after a week in the dark thanks to Isabel. Just in time, too, as I was out of underwear and tired of not having fresh protein to eat.

In WP-related stuff, well, I guess I'm doing good Plan A stuff in terms of minimizing LBs and meeting needs. Still doing a bit of exposure, too, as the opportunity arises.

And not one bit of confrontation. Well, that's not true. A tiny bit of confrontation, but not anything to write home about.

DD and I have fun together, and the fights about her with WP have diminished, though not died altogether.

I'm cleansing my head and my home of the dark places that I'm finding. Still lots of work to be done there, but making progress.

I've been thinking a lot about the people to whom I should make amends in this sad cycle of infidetlity. Hard to say exactly who that should be and how I should approach it, but I'm thinking about it.

And I'm thinking about other people to whom I should make amends. There are definitely a few in my life who I hurt more than I should have. One slow step at a time for me.

There is, too, work to be done in the light of day. Exercise, eating well, getting enough sleep. Taking care of me and remembering that I'm a good person with good qualities and enough strength for what I need to do.

There is, too, a small amount of work to be done in preventing people from matchmaking for me. A relationship right now would be unfair and unfaithful to me, to WP, and to whoever I got involved with. I'll stick with friends and family I've known for a long time, with the addition of a few other women who have small children as support.

So, that's my life. I work, I play with the baby, I cleanse my soul and my home. I try to remember healthy food and exercise, I get enough sleep.

I like it, all in all. I am good at my job and good at parenting. I have a soul that is finding simplicity and peace, and unearthing things that needed to be gotten rid of. I go on.

J - I've followed your thread fairly closely, since I have a very dear couple who are going through something similar. For the record, you seem to be handling it much better than they are!

And I also wanted to chime in on two of the things you said about parenting. I am astounded that anyone could complain that at five months you were being too gentle or too loving with the baby! No such thing! And while I did not have the babies sleep in my bed with me after a few months, or when they were sick, I don't think I they are ready for the "let them cry it out" at 8 months either. I quite clearly recall rocking them to sleep until they were too big to fit comfortably in my arms (about 18 months or so).

It really sounds like you are doing a terrific job, with the baby, with yourself, and with life in general.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">J - I've followed your thread fairly closely, since I have a very dear couple who are going through something similar. For the record, you seem to be handling it much better than they are!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm so sorry they're going through something similar! If you would like to talk more directly about what's happening with them, please drop me a line at justj_mb@yahoo.com. This is an incredibly difficult thing to go through, and the laws are so incredibly murky that it's almost impossible to find good legal help if that's what's needed, much less good marital help!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I also wanted to chime in on two of the things you said about parenting. I am astounded that anyone could complain that at five months you were being too gentle or too loving with the baby! No such thing!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I can only say that it was a part of WP's distaste for me at the time. She didn't want me touching her at all, and since she was feeling like DD was an extension of her, it made her very uncomfortable. That continues today in her reaction to me sleeping with the baby, I think. Personally, I'm just not concerned about an hour-long nap with the baby. It strikes me as an entirely normal thing to do, in fact, and best of all, we -both- get to sleep!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And while I did not have the babies sleep in my bed with me after a few months, or when they were sick, I don't think I they are ready for the "let them cry it out" at 8 months either. I quite clearly recall rocking them to sleep until they were too big to fit comfortably in my arms (about 18 months or so).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I'm just starting to address this with her now. The "cry it out" technique really upsets me, so I'm hoping that we can negotiate another method to get the baby put to bed when she's fussy about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It really sounds like you are doing a terrific job, with the baby, with yourself, and with life in general.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks! I just try to take one step at a time. There are still days that are very, very hard. But this is a process, and it takes a long time. I'm finding that I have more reserves than I thought I did, and more ability to stay with an incredibly difficult situation. Still, it's becoming more and more important to me to create my own private safe spaces and times, areas where no one else is allowed to go. I've never really had to do that before, and it's something of an odd experience for me. I worry sometimes that it's not a good idea to put these boundaries in place, and at the same time, it's a relief to take steps to protect myself. Removal of vulnerability, I suppose, is a double-edged sword.

Anyway, now that the agreement is signed and we're starting to live life under it, things seem to be settling down some. I'm more able to state (calmly, courteously, and respectfully), the things that worry and upset me because I'm less subject to the effects of WP's anger, should it surface in a destructive way.

There are still many hurdles, of course, but I feel like I can make it over them these days, rather than having to crawl under them like I was a few months ago.

It's a good feeling.

I never read this thread until today J....

For some reason, I thought your daughter was older.

I used to work in NICU .... years ago .... premies are special.

refering to the other discussion on Sungirl's thread...

Pushing rules is risky. Speed limits or open relationships .... rules often exist for protective reasons.

Our 2 kids are adopted .... the process of adoption is very protective for the child ..... home study , background checks and all of that.

Having visitation is something for you .... and for the babe.

What would happen if your former partner marries OM and he adopts the babe? Would that amend the current visitation agreement?

You are holding up well, I pray.

Pep

For the record, I NEVER let my D "cry it out." Why are we so hard on babies in this culture?

Also, she slept with me. It's one way you BOTH can get some sleep.

She's an absolutely superb teenager, and everyone adores her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
I never read this thread until today J....

For some reason, I thought your daughter was older.

I used to work in NICU .... years ago .... premies are special.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DD didn't -quite- qualify as a preemie. Right on the edge, but not. So they sent us home when she weighed 4 lbs 11 oz and wished us luck. Looking back on it, I'm not exactly sure how we made it through that first 10 days. In a lot of ways, I guess we didn't.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pushing rules is risky. Speed limits or open relationships .... rules often exist for protective reasons.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I've learned that over the years. My early lessons, when I was a child and adolescent, were that most of the "rules" didn't apply to me. My later lessons are a correction to that -- some of the "rules" are unavoidable laws of nature.

So... I didn't crash my car and I did crash my relationship. Except, well, I don't know that I did. My other relationships didn't destroy our marriage, but WP's other relationship did. I don't know what to think about that yet, nor how to view my own role in it. I don't know what strengths and weaknesses that indicates about my own soul.

I know that I have a 50% responsibility for our relationship. After the last of the legal things associated with protecting DD are taken care of, I will be spending at least a year in contemplation of these things and what they mean for how I will live from now on.

All in all, I'm amazed that I've come away from the devastating head-on crash of our marriage without more injuries. And my DD lived through it, too. WP? Well, I don't know what it's done to her. I may never know.

Then again, I'm not fully protecting myself from her; my lawyer absolutely refuses to consider Plan B, so ... there is still too much potential for pain. That's unfortunate, and creates fear, but I am slowly getting past my fear and toward expressing my self.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Our 2 kids are adopted .... the process of adoption is very protective for the child ..... home study , background checks and all of that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah. I really hope I get to go through it. DD needs to be my daughter. When I look at it as objectively as I can, she is already my daughter in all ways except for the basic legal things like the Social Security benefits if I die and the right to inherit from me and the right to be carried under my health insurance. And the right not to have one of her parents taken away from her on a whim.

That, thank goodness, is partially in the custody agreement as well as in the adoption (when it happens). It's devastating for a child to lose a parent after the attachment has occurred.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Having visitation is something for you .... and for the babe.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Joint legal and physical custody protects DD and me from the whims of a WP who is still deep in a relationship with OM, and who still makes decisions that don't, to me, appear to be in DD's best interests. Not that I'm an unbiased judge, but some things are just obvious.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What would happen if your former partner marries OM and he adopts the babe? Would that amend the current visitation agreement?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, that's actually not allowed under our agreement. No one will ever be allowed to adopt DD except me, and neither WP nor I can marry (or cohabit, or enter into a civil union) until DD is 2.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are holding up well, I pray.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Surprisingly well, in fact. I pray, too, and it seems to help. As does meditation and contemplation, and treating myself gently in difficult times.

<small>[ October 04, 2003, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: Just J ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OFor the record, I NEVER let my D "cry it out." Why are we so hard on babies in this culture?

Also, she slept with me. It's one way you BOTH can get some sleep.

She's an absolutely superb teenager, and everyone adores her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks! I know two men (my brothers) who were never made to cry it out and who slept with their parents and siblings. And they both nursed for a good long while, too. They are both upstanding, solid, dependable, loving, wonderful men.

So yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm not going to hurt DD any by being gentle with her when she's working on going to sleep. Nor do I think that slightly different routines in two households will hurt her.

I do think that parents who nitpick each other to death may be problematic, but hopefully that will work itself out when we've gotten a bit more used to this. We are, after all, first-time parents on top of all the other stuff we've had to deal with.

Am I an idiot? Am I insane? I don't know.

I do know that it's my birthday, and my gift to myself was five minutes of open, honest communication to my WP. And what did I say? I said I love her. Via e-mail, so

Like I said, perhaps I'm insane. I don't think it's necessarily a bad kind of insanity, but there it is. Anyone have thoughts?

J - just popping in to wish you many happy returns for yesterday. I hope you had a good day.

Are you insane? Well, you know I think we all are. When I would talk to Pound Man, sometimes, I wanted to just tell him that all those years did mean something and I did care and love him. Was it worth it in the long run? Not really.

Even after my last correspondence with him, I ended it by telling him I wished him well, I wished him peace I wished him happiness. What did he do, tell me he didn't feel the same, he couldn't possibly do that because I was such a "bully". Was I mad to do it? No, I could cope with it and put it in perspective of *me* and what was necessary for my recovery. Can you do the same?

Your feelings for someone don't just stop. And things like birthdays, Christmas, holidays etc. are when it becomes most accute.

I hope you're doing OK, you've come so far, you have a great strength that I admire.

Take care and wishing you well from London

Lisa

<small>[ October 05, 2003, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

Originally posted by Just J:
Am I an idiot? Am I insane?

~~~~~

The jury's sill out on that one! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I do know that it's my birthday

~~~~~

*~*~ HAPPY FREAKIN' BIRTHDAY ~*~*

Pep
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Hi J,

I would like discuss the baby -

Since I admit right up front that I don't know everything, I'll just relate some personal experiences. My W and I have 8 children. Oldest is 25, youngest are twin girls 10. When our oldest son was about two months my mother asked us if he was sleeping through the night yet. He was not, and she asked my W if she could give some advice. My MIL later gave similar advice, and I can't remember the exact words, so I will just kind of give it in my own words.

It went something like this -

"Babies have both needs and wants. You can give them everything they want, or you can learn what are needs, and what are wants and give them what is best for them. Sometimes they cry because they are hungry, and sometimes they cry because they like to eat, even when they don't need anything. Sometimes they get angry and cry because they are mad that they don't get their way. Your baby will eat and sleep whenever it feels like it, or it will eat and sleep on a schedule that you teach to it. You can adapt to babies schedule, or baby can adapt to your schedule. Which one would help your family out the most?

The bottom line my mother told us - was that what baby wants, and what baby cries for, are not always what is best for baby. We put baby on a schedule, and in two weeks baby was sleeping through the night. Mother was sleeping through the night. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Father was sleeping through the night. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

For the first child, I don't think it makes as much difference, but as the family grows, it makes it easier for mother and father to meet the needs of everyone, not just baby. Of course baby is the highest priority, but that doesn't mean baby is always "right." Older children are also able to meet babies need for love and attention, so it seemed to work out.

Now it is almost 26 years, and 7 children later. I believe my mother was right. We loved our babies, we held them and rocked them to sleep many, many nights. Sometimes we couldn't be there when it was time for bed. Older children have needs too - and we tried to balance those needs. We taught the children even as babies that their needs would be met, but not always just the way they wanted them met. They learned to trust us after the initial shock of finding out that they couldn't have everything that they wanted. That last was meant to be humorous - I hope people don't take it wrong.

So, they cried it out - but none of them for more than two weeks, and even then, it was not every night. Before bed time, they were played with and rocked and sang to, and loved, but then put to bed, and if they cried, they cried. Within two weeks they learned to sleep on schedule, they went to bed, they went to sleep - no more tears.

During this time, my W checked with our doctor, and he asked how many children my mother had (6) and how many children W's mother had (8) and he said: " if both of them are giving you the same advice, perhaps you ought to try it." So she did, and we have been happy.

I suppose there more ways than one to produce happy, healthy, well adjusted children. I hope you and others don't take this as disagreement or that I am trying to argue- just wanted to give you another point of view.

Thinking back, I feel this was a valuable thing for our children to learn at an early age. If we traveled, and we were in a strange place - they knew the schedule. When it was bedtime, they went to sleep.

I hope you can come to agreement on your parenting styles. It seems to me that consistency would be best for the child.

Am I an idiot? Am I insane? I don't know.

As near as I can tell, we all have these thoughts come to us. We all have to find our own way and our own answers - I have found that there is a God, and that prayer leads me to find answers. If prayer seems to help you, keep it up. Pep uses humor to diffuse pain, but she knows what you mean.
Perhaps this wasn't the best birthday you have ever had, but I hope you can search - find the answers you are looking for, and that the next one is better.

SS

<small>[ October 06, 2003, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>