All right 8time...I'll play now since you came back...

Why would anyone come here and say what I've said? I don't know. Self mutilation? Maybe immersion therapy. Sorry if I intruded into a comfort space for those of you who are recovering. I thought perhaps you could provide me with a perspective I didn't have, but I guess not. If you feel better after throwing rocks at me, I'm glad I could help.

Where in your post do you claim to want a different perspective...??
different perspective...I have a few for you...didn't know by your post that's what you wanted...but now that you have clarified that I will give it a whirl...

But know this. Until you have walked on both sides of the fence, you don't know. You don't even have a clue.

well let's start there...because the reality is that you yourself haven't really been on both sides of the fence...your fences pretty much beget the same from you...a person who really has no true idea what real committment is or entail...

you are not faithful to your wife.
you are not faithful to you other woman/women
you are not faithful to yourself...

in fact the only thing you are faithful to...is being unfaithful....
you know one my favorite things to say around here...the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over...and expecting a different response or outcome...

affairs suck... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
they do great damage and pain to all involved...

I can't rely on me anymore.
that does make sense...how or why could would or should anyone rely on a person who does not understand the actions of..

being truthful
being honest
being committed
being able to nuture when needed not when time schedules allow

and that is no a slam...that is what inner turmoil we all experience when our actions do not match our beliefs..it sounds very lonely and exhausting to always be lying to oneself about being a different type of person their actions show them to be..
how lonely you must feel
how much does it hurt you...for surely it does hurt you....

I began this all by trying to talk the OW into fixing her marriage.
that one made me chuckle a little..how do you adise someone on fixing a marriage...when you can't/don't fix your own...
and again not an attack...just a icky dose of a real question...enquiring minds ya know...

what is your concept..
of your marriage vows...that whole annoying one of cherishing...
to me vows are not words they are actions that we live out each day in our lives...

As far as my marriage goes, it's going to go on, as is. That's just it. There wasn't some glaring problem, not even a ho-hum daily grind.

How can you honestly say there wasn't some glaring problem....you are the glaring problem...and I don't mean that as an attack...
seriously...how cruel are you to believe that your actions hidden or blatant have no effect on your wife...
you can decide to get real with yourself...and stop the insanity of your repeatitive infidelity...and realize that there is great value and depth in learning the real meaning of vows...

Actions define us...and your actions over and over have defined you as someone who does not get nor understand the deeper picture or meaning of love, marriage, and committment...

affairs are cruel and painful to the
betrayed spouses, the other woman/man and the person acting out the affair...they are shadows and reflections of feel good emotions...perhaps even deep at times...but they lack all the key ingredients needed to make them truly be worthy of humans..
logisitically,
physically,
and even emotionally

ARK

Wow!

ark got BARK!

Ummn - 8 - I am a (WS = Wayward Spouse) and I wasn't even this forthcoming with details as you have been when I arrived. I WAS looking for answers... though I was not immediately certain what the question was when I came here... I was looking.

I believe that you are here for maybe some of the same reasons I was and still am to some extent. I was looking for individuals who I KNEW would oppose my thought processes and force me to think about those things that made me who I've become... To help me think of things differently than I would have from my usual arrogant perch.

I'll ask you what they asked me in the beginning: "what are you looking for at Marriage Builders?" And don't tell me you're not looking for answers. You wouldn't be here if you weren't. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Do what Orhid suggested in her post. The people here are good people... Even the ones you made angry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> will chill and either ignore you or meet the challenge you present.

Might I suggest you continue in your honesty but don't get lost in your own sensual chaos to the exclusion of those who would help.

I got hit with the Troll thing too (a poster who is purposfully incindiary, or otherwise, in their comments to gain attention..) prove them wrong 8.

I'm willing to gamble there's a good man in there who want's to find a way out.

Game on? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-TMD

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: 8 Time Loser ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Until you have walked on both sides of the fence, you don't know. You don't even have a clue.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Really? Well I've been a Wayward Wife and a Betrayed Spouse (x2) so I have walked both sides of the fence. Looking at what others have posted I wonder, "Have you?"

You think you're alone in way you feel -- that you (and OW) are unique? You're not. One of the things that become painfully evident once you've been here for a while is how all the stories of infidelity are so much a like that sometimes one blurs into the other.

It's our marriages and seeking to repair them and to make them better that defines us NOT the infidelity -- for those stories are the same.

You think you all are unique now because of the FOG you're in -- my husband during and for a few months after A#2 ... but once the effect of the affair wears off, you'll see you aren't.

You say the problem is you but then say you'll just hold your little secret bearing the pain yourself? That may seem gallant to you and you may actually talk yourself into believing that it is ...

Have you ever heard the phrase "We are only as sick as our secrets?" -- you're hiding from your wife an evil and evil only grows in darkness ... by "protecting" her you are only doing her and your marriage, and you more damage.

Be honest with your wife or at the very least go into therapy for yourself -- so you don't do this again.

Personally I'd tell her .. if for no other reason than to keep her from feeling years later when she finds out the truth, that her whole life with you has been a lie.

No matter how good you think it is -- she will look at her life with you as a lie when she finds out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The affair is already over </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then end it for good ... quit going to the well and making it more and more painful.

But it all come back down to YOU working on being a better person ... for if you don't you will probably cheat again and again and again...

Until you do NOTHING will have changed inside of you. You'll just feel the attraction for someone else.

I believe alot in honor ... I think women in general look up to men they beleive to be honorable (I'm trying to feel that way about my husband again) --- be honorable go to counseling and be a man your wife can truly look to.

way2

<small>[ September 03, 2003, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: way2 ]</small>

So, if I don't know the meaning of love, commitment, marraige, deviation, my marriage vows, and everything else you've mentioned, why am I here?

Because the one thing you do KNOW...is that you DON"T KNOW the meaning....perhaps you are here to find it...

Know what I mean???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Why do I hurt? Why do I care?

You are not bad...you choices and actions hurt.they hurt people you care for.and they hurt you.....
all people pretty much care..don't ya think..

8 time...it's not a time frame....it's not like you get credit or medals for being faithful for x number or years...you still don't know why you were faithful...or why you are unfaithful...
part of the answer lies in what you value...and what you profess to value...

If I were who you say then I would never have stopped cheating, maybe never hove gotten married again after the first

wrong...you didn't stop because of some great epiphany...you are stopping because living the lies hurts more than the gain...

because you know the person that stares back at you in the mirror is not someone you yourself can admire....

go deeper...8.
drop the defenses....

ARK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong> . . .how do you adise someone on fixing a marriage...when you can't/don't fix your own...

ARK</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, if this was indeed the rule there are very few here at MB that could post. If your marriage isn't broken, why would anyone be here? This is not a very honest statment . . . but it made a great taunt.

Cheers

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 8 Time Loser:
<strong>And to think, just a moment ago I was discounting most of this thread as flame. Ark, tmd, I don't want to sound cheesy. I appreciate your posts.

What am I looking for here? Tough question. I guess I don't know. I do know a little. I want to be opposed. I want to be chastized. I want to share that I feel bad for what I've done to everyone I've involved in this. But my emotions are mixed. Maybe that's why I'm here, to unmix them.

One thing won't happen. I won't tell.
</strong>
Well... be careful what you wish for... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You've already been raked! Soundly! *laughing* whew.

If you want to share that you "feel bad for what I've done to everyone I've involved in this..." then I'm a bit confused as to why you won't tell your wife. Like it or not... she's a major player in the game.

I told my wife up front... before the physical part of the A. My own screwed up way of dealing with the guilt of having an A... which I'd never done before.<strong>

If it kills me I won't.</strong>
It may well kill you. Now that it seems to matter to you for the first time, it may very well kill you. <strong>

It is difficult or impossible for me to convey what I want or feel they are so conflicting. I do know which is right and which is wrong but that doesn't keep me from wanting them.</strong>

I completely understand that with a depth and depression the likes of which I cannot convey. <strong>

Oh, and thanks to all those who think I'm not worthy of marriage. That helps.

So, if I don't know the meaning of love, commitment, marraige, deviation, my marriage vows, and everything else you've mentioned, why am I here?
</strong>
Well - as I've discovered here at MB - I have the intellect to discuss the concepts you've listed above but failed to engage in the actions required to make them successful. What say you there? I remember what my answers were to that question. curious how similar your will be. <strong>

Why do I hurt?</strong>

Only you can answer that. Give it your honest attention. Its an important topic to broach. <strong>

Why do I care?</strong>

Another important question I think. Please cover this in your response as well. <strong>

If I were who you say then I would take what I can get, and when the honey well dries up move on. If I were who you say then I would never have stopped cheating, maybe never hove gotten married again after the first.

</strong> Dude! Seriously... gotta ask... I thought I was brash... holy crap! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> When exactly did you STOP cheating? <strong>

If I were you you say then I would never think of leaving my current for my new.
</strong> HUH? <strong>

I never felt that with #1. I had the chance to cheat on #2 before and never took it, easy chances, low risk, on a sliver platter. Never was drawn away. That's why I'm so nuts, because now, now is when I get hammered by this. </strong>

let's cut to the chase. If I follow you... then A#7 was during W#1 and A#8 was with present W#2 right? So how long between A#7 and A#8?
<strong>

It would be easy to wish we had never met, but then I'd have missed out on someone wonderful. </strong>
Who? Your W or the OW? Just looking for clarity. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
<strong>

Time to go.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">-TMD

Hereandnow...

totally stand by what I said in relationship to 8 offering advice to someone on fixing a marriage when they themselves are in total denial about their own actions/responsibility/fidelity...

Had NOTHING to do with people here posting, facing, discecting their own marriages...in a learning perspective....on marriage builders...

rule 326 affair proofing your own relationship......people in committed marriages don't seek out members of the opposite sex to confide personal issues with...to many opportunities for bonding and crossing boundaries...

seeking out co-workers with personal info is NOT the same as this forum by a long shot..

not a taunt by anymeans...

ARK

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: 8 Time Loser ]</small>

8time, the reason I flamed you so harshly is because of your total lack of remorse. You're total disreguard and disrepect towards your wife and women in general.

You say you don't regret being with the OW at all. As a BS (and keep in mind, everything I say is being said from the other side of the fence), it kills me inside to hear you say this. I ache for your wife. I feel a searing pain through me for that woman whose husband does not regret so carelessly hurting her. That she is disillusioned as to the man she is really married to.

I think from your first post, you were like a wistful kid having a little daydream. The little TROLL inside of you came out and spoke exactly what was on his mind. The Ego came out and said exactly what he felt. As a child might want a toy and not understand if their parents do not have enough money for it. Or a child who got the toy, but loves the toy so much that they don't care if their family had to sacrafice something for it. Can you see the utter selfishness in that? Can you see that you are the child who has his toy and is glad he got it at the cost of other people? And the even worse part is, is you don't even appear to want to evaluate WHY you keep wanting toys over and over and making people in your life the sacraficial lambs. You don't care. You don't appear to be guiltridden at all.

If you were to have your mother read that post, would you feel good about her seeing it? I seriously doubt it. That is shame. You would be ashamed of it because you know, deep down, that this behavior (that is almost a norm for you at this point) is abnormal, it's self destructive, selfish, and it hurts others.

If you choose to tell your wife or not, fine. BUT if you DO want to stay married to her, you should really sit back and evaluate yourself.

When you look take a long hard look @ yourself, are you seeing someone who has integrity? Someone who is decent, loyal, and loving? Someone who is loving, HONORING, and CHERISHING their bride? Do you see someone who could look his mother and tell her his sins without an ounce of shame?

I am judging you harshly, yes. To me, you're someone who is psychologically disturbed, but refuses to do something about it. You are refusing to acknowledge that you're behavior is unacceptable ("I don't regret being with OW.")

I know a woman with bipolar disorder or manic depression. I forget which she has. Anyways, she was at work one day and flipped out. She's some sort of chemist at a hospital. She lept up on one of the lab tables, started dancing (this woman is in her 50's and very heavy), and then started telling people how she knew god and he was with her and a bunch of other loony stuff. She ended up spending time in the mental ward because of her insanity. It was then that she was diagnosed.

When she was released, her physician had given her a medication of some sort. This medication is supposed to keep her on an even keel. It will give her the ability to cope with life everyday and not flip out. But you know what? SHE WON'T TAKE THE MEDICINE! You know why? Because she loves her highs! She loves it when the high kicks in and she's in mania mode because everything feels great. Hey! She's meeting GOD while she's there! LIFE IS GOOD! Why live without her mania when she was "lucky enough" to be born with it, right? Well, here's why. Because her home is a wreck. You seriously cannot walk through it. She hordes everything she encounters (even garbage like old pop bottles -- EVERYTHING), she found some wild cats and now they live in her bathroom, which gives her a PERFECT excuse not to bathe. Her husband left her, her daughter moved to another state, and she lost her job. She now has to rely on a small Social Security check and live without the benefit of a family. She loves romantic relationships, but she's obese, stinky, and loopy -- what man is going to tolerate that?

But then again, those highs feel SO GOOD!

My point in telling you this story is this -- You have an affliction with wanting romantic love. Having that initial love high in a relationship. Whether or not it's detrimental to those around you, you keep persueing it. You're like the manic who will not take their medication because the high feels so good. The high is worth losing everything.

If you want to keep losing everything and keep hurting people with no remorse, fine. I, of course, have absolutely no control over that. But if you value those around you in the SLIGHTEST, then you will seek professional help for your inability to live without that "love high". You will look into the faces of your children and envision yourself as a man that you want them to be proud of and you will become that man. You won't be a scoundrel whose sexual desires or love lust will rule his world. You will overcome it and rise above it. You're capable of it.

Wondrme

One last thing, 8. I do understand that you have been faithful to your wife for 8 years now. But I also think of this like smoking.

I quit smoking when I had my kids. I live with a smoker, but I managed to not smoke for the sake of my kids.

Well, one day I was stressed beyond belief and had "just one". Now I am smoking a pack a day again.

You have some sort of wound or issue of some kind that needs to be resolved with the help of a therapist. Please consider it. If you are ashamed to tell your wife why or you are still feeling the need to keep her from knowing of you A, tell her it is for depression.

The therapist will guide you along and let you know if you should tell your wife of the A or not. They are the certified professional. They are there to help with issues. PLEASE GO! for the of those around you and for yourself.

Good luck

Wondrme

P.S. Check out this thread as well. 2ofakind, the guy who wrote it is a former Wayward spouse (WW). He is very clear on who he was before the A, when he was in the A, in the fog, and who he has become since recovery. His threads are very insightful for both the BS's and WS's. I'll put a couple of links here for you to look at.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=011970

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=011964#00 0002

<small>[ September 03, 2003, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Wondrme ]</small>

Hello 8,

I came back several times to read. Your tone has changed, and that is good. Reading what you first wrote, is not the same as the later posts.
Take a look:

1st- </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My feelings have grown a lot, more rapidly than I ever thought possible. Serious feelings that have me contemplating leaving my wife "for no good reason."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">later--I do love my W very much, no matter what naysayers may think. I made a mistake. There I said it. I never should have let the OW know how I felt. That was it, the start of it all.

1st-- </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I want to continue to cheat. She doesn't, I think, yet I know from her words, written and spoken, that there are some serious feelings going on inside her, and I want to be a part of them. I wish she could take what I have to offer and be satisfied enoguh. I'm not surprised if she want's the fairly tale. I know I'm wrong, but I really don't care. I want it all. Mostly, I want my friend back, because I really enjoyed her. She means a lot to me, and all I can do is sit here and wait.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">later--Either way I'll be in the past. It's not there yet, but that's where it's headed. I'm fine with that I suppose, because I know that it's best.

and

Here's what would make me happy. Ready? The OW would manage somehow to fall back in love with her hub and they live happily ever after, without me.

Your tone changed. You said you want to be chastized, and you want to be opposed. Good. My husbands affair was probably much worse than yours, so dont take my comments to mean you are scum. Thats not my call. But something tells me you FEEL like scum for what you have done to your wife, and to yourself.
Plus you have the added stress of being a bit "foggy" about your feelings, mixed up, as you said. And you really, really want this ow....for now.

One thing I really want to point out to you is this. IF everything was fine with you and your marriage before your affair; you would not have had one. It may be that your wife is the perfect wife for you. It may be that you have unmet needs that she doesn't know about. It may be that something is messed up inside you. Conflict avoider, sex addict, depression, thrill seaker, morally inconsistant....who knows. You have a lifetime of cheating behind you,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> am the problem. I am a cheating husband. I've been married twice. My first marriage was a huge mistake brought on by youth and ignorance. I lived single, cheated with 4 women over 7 years, medium to long term with each. Caught once, because I was dumb enough to write something down. Been divorced since '95.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like you really need to figure out why.
keep posting. Get real with yourself.Talk to your wife. She has no idea what is going on with you. It's not fair to her. Put the ow behind you, let HER husband worry about her.
You need to consentrate on your wife and children.

Good luck
tsc

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: 8 Time Loser ]</small>

8time, it's not an attack, it's a wakeup call, man!

Do you think everyone here, both BS's AND WS's are just bitter and out to get you? Haven't you noticed that every person who has posted here has said that you need to wake up from your fog and face reality? Do you think EVERY ONE OF THESE PEOPLE on here are just mean and like attacking the first person they can??

8x
What is haunting you???
What came back??

My guess is some sort of abuse. If so, listen there are so many here who have delt with that.
No one knows who you are here. Talk all you want. I'm trying to be gentle and understanding.
You are not being attacked. Just remember, this is marriage BUILDERS. people here will help, as long as what you are ultimately doing is trying to build back a marriage(or realtionship). We can be no help to someone who wants to cheat. Wants to cake-eat. It hurts those trying to recover way too much. Please try to understand.

So, whats haunting you??
tsc

Never mind, you are not worth a reply.

<small>[ September 04, 2003, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: UNCatTech ]</small>

Went to see "Jerry Springer - The Opera" (http://www.jerryspringertheopera.com) yesterday. What a great laugh. But it was also great food for thought.

One of the lines God/Jerry sung were:

"All these million voices,
doing all the wrong choices,
then turn around and blaming me??
It ain't easy being me."

Think about it.

8TL

This last Tuesday, I looked into the eyes of the OM. He has cheated on his W for over 30 years, and she didn't have a clue. His eyes were dead, he has justified everything he does for his own self interests. He uses and then eventually throws away the W he "Loves". He manipulates them into this emotional attachment then uses them as a piece of meat. I can see this in your future, this is the only the first time, it will happen again unless you change. The a@@hole told me I was causing his W pain. He is truly dead inside, his self love overrides everything. You need to break that cycle.

Tell your wife, she needs to know, then ask the OWH for forgivness, he also need to know what he is facing.

Its good that you came here, at least you have a chance before you die inside.

Your W will find out someday. At some point in time there will be a call, a knock at the door, or a letter sent to her. I know that the A33wipe I delt with never saw me coming back almost 2 months later to inform his W. But, I felt that weight on my shoulders, I just waited so that my desire to give her choices replaced my desire to inflict pain.

I hope that you start making the hard decisions that you need to make. If you think there isn't a problem with your M. Then look in the mirror, somehow a door was opened and you walked into your A with open eyes. Just remember the door is still open, and there is another person in your M that could walk through. There is a problem.

<small>[ September 05, 2003, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: Silverthorn ]</small>

then ask the OMH for forgivness, he also need to know what he is facing.
You mean OWH (other womans husband)