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#1089690 09/09/03 06:09 AM
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I am not able to forgive myself.
Well isn't that a little bit extreme?
A little histrionic with a tinge of drama...

8t...you came up with some insight and understanding about why these infidelities are so painful and cruel to you, your spouse, and the OW..why playing with yours and others emotions and beliefs about these things is dangerous and painful....

and then in your pain you come here and attack us...as if pointing out these things or encouraging you to dig deeper and see the damage infidelity causes in something we invented...

Infidelity is what it is...regardless of what we say about it..
your pain is no greater because of the collective us...

Infact there are many here that understand your pain...have felt your pain...and your pain thrown at us...is the exact reason that some are here...and the exact reason why some people really do know what you are going through...

You and we all forgive ouselves by moving away from being the type of person that can be part of such actions that can cause such pain...when we grow from it...and accept what was..yet seek what we can be...

again you still have much learning to do..while it is easy for you to attack those that encourage you to be honest with your wife..you turn your defenses on full throttle...
And yet there is truth in their encouragement...in in telling their come along with the pain...all the things you have been withholding through your actions...
your respect
your honesty
your trustworthyness...
your vows in action to cleave to one another...

AND yet even while I believe you do owe her these things....I and some can leave some room for adult debate and discussion on the topic of divulging all...in a mature non-attacking way...for I can be swayed by someone who is very very sincere for their actions and gets what havoc they have reaked and reach that point that they could not ever do those things again...then perhaps it is worth visiting and wieghing the pros and cons of divulging all...

regardless we are adult enough to speak to eachother about it...but you just want to make difinitive statements...that can lead to more pain and hurt...

I take great offense to your comment... I know many of you wish that upon me in your bitter heartbroken souls, while some of you have compassion. But I would not break 4 more hearts to satisfy a crowd of judges.

I stand before you as no BS/OP/WS and find your comment very cruel...
and just more proof of actions that you take that show how much more you need to understand of this whole situation...

Well there I've said my peace..
You have done the honorable thing...and doing the honorable or right thing..often does hurt...and yet it also comes to be the best things we do....
I hope you can see more and value in what you have done...beyond the pain and your glossing over certain core aspects right now...

ARK

#1089691 09/13/03 06:20 PM
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8TL,

How are you?

#1089692 09/15/03 08:59 AM
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<small>[ September 30, 2003, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: 8 Time Loser ]</small>

#1089693 09/15/03 10:24 AM
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Keep going. Keep posting. You are in withdrawal. That's what we're here for.

#1089694 09/19/03 06:27 PM
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<small>[ September 30, 2003, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: 8 Time Loser ]</small>

#1089695 09/19/03 07:22 PM
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8T,

The feelings (for OW) are real. The feelings are valid. If you feel them and are hurting, they most certainly are real to YOU.

HOWEVER, the feelings will fade, if you let them. If you know you could NEVER be "together" b/c this is wrong, wrong, WRONG (good for YOU, btw!), then allow yourself to "grieve" - and then look forward. Not back.

Looking forward means that YOU deserve to be "happy" again, too. To be in a happy, well-adjusted M. AND IT CAN HAPPEN!! That's the good news about the Harleys' system. IT WORKS!!

Essentially, if you remember how or why you ended up here, you will realize that what you want is to be happy, to be happily M'd, to know what true love is, and to END YOUR A.

Work the "Harley system", 8T. Do a good Plan A. Maintain NC. Take the time needed to grieve. Then put the 4 rules of Protection, Time, Care, and (oh, shoot, I just forgot the 4th one?) Anybody help? Anyway - put the 4 Rules into practice....ALL THE TIME.

You CAN recover your M. You CAN "fix" what is wrong in your M. And, most importantly, I beleive you can negotiate your most important EN's with your W.

Keep trying,

God Bless,

#1089696 09/19/03 10:33 PM
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<small>[ September 30, 2003, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: 8 Time Loser ]</small>

#1089697 09/22/03 12:58 AM
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Looks like you're beginning to head in the right direction, 8 time.

I really hope that you choose to not hurt your wife anymore.

<small>[ September 22, 2003, 02:01 AM: Message edited by: Wondrme ]</small>

#1089698 09/22/03 07:51 AM
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I have done things that I cannot mention here. I hurt her terribly today, intentionally. She has moved on now, and probably won't look back. It hurts me to no end that I have hurt someone I care for so much, and that someone I love with so much of my heart now hates me. But it's for the best.

Ok I'm just gonna be really really honest with this one....
pathetic...absolutely pathetic...

Go ahead 8time call me a judgemental non-compassionate...whatever...

but basically what you are saying is to allieve yourself and your responsibility towards the deceivement you fed her...you willingly and with great thought took a path of hurt and pain to end this relationship....

way to go...
there's decency and accountability at it's best...

and that someone I love with so much of my heart now hates me. But it's for the best.

you set it up so she would hate you .
you planned it and set the wheels in motion..

and your belief that these actions are for the best or justifiable...is a cop out of extroidinary rationalization....

Are the actions of the affair in and and of itself not cruel enough for you? ...
cruel enough to you ?
cruel enough to your wife ?
cruel enough for your OW...?

I hope she discloses all to your wife...
in this case I believe your wife has every right to know what type of human she is married to.

I hope she knows that you will CHOOSE to enact actions of pain of her...if it serves your cowardly agenda and somehow alleviates your own responsibility in actions and choices...

Do I change this post and 'nicely" attempt to point out that while being intentionally cruel to the other woman that you met the 'goal" of ending the affair..but in a nice mushy way perhaps you could have figured out a nicer more pleasant way to do it.....and learned about real repentance and accountability...

Nah....

I don't think you grasp importance of your own accountability in this universe to take that route...

this post will serve you better..(or me atleast for speaking my opinion)
you will eithr accuse me of judging
being a b**&&*
or just feed in to your self wallowing of
and that someone I love with so much of my heart now hates me. But it's for the best. [/B]
as if that somehow is really a noble path <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

8timeloser...

I hope you realize what you have done...and see it for what it really is...not some noble act that is better in the end..
but just continued pain and hurt caused by your actions and choices....

I hope you wrestle these demons and grow to be a person that would never ever ever be able to do again what you have done..

I always have great faith that people can change..

ARK

<small>[ September 22, 2003, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

#1089699 09/22/03 11:02 AM
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<small>[ September 30, 2003, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: 8 Time Loser ]</small>

#1089700 09/22/03 11:06 AM
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There is something in a name....

#1089701 09/22/03 11:23 AM
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That's just it 8time...

It's judgemental to call you on the injustice you perpertrated on another human being because of your fear of not being able to control your self...

It's such a cop-out...any behavior you do..that someone calls you on...just blow them off because you are being judged...

well what if what the person is saying about your actions is true...what then...???

Basically that's what you are saying...

because I wasn't sure that I could "control" myself..I choose to damage and hurt her...so that she was in control ...
and it was no longer up to me...

She was leaving the building...
she was physcially removed from your environment...
You are in total control of what voice mails, e-mails, text messages you read versus delete...and yet because you still can't see the noble path besides what you 'desire"...

But the truth is I don't know how much longer I could have resisted the OW.

Think and read about that statement...
I will hurt others so that I do not have to control my self...
that won't serve you well in your life...
and certainly not the others souls in your life...

I don't see you as a predator..I see right through you...
to someone not choosing to be responsible for their own actions...

To you I am like a thousand others who hurt the weak and vulnerable for their own gain and move on.

You have no gains..
you have no idea what committment means..
love means
consequances of choices...
marriage vows mean
how to terminate a relationship with decency..

and it's true that you will probably keep moving on...but problem is ...everywhere you go...there you are...

Do you not see that you have learned little...from this..
just how to save yourself from temptation by destroying that what tempted you...rather than dealing with the issues that drive your tempation from within....

I hope you learn about what love really means...it will serve you better than what you have done with it thus far...

ARK

#1089702 09/22/03 11:55 AM
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OK 8-time loser I held off from this thread because the others seemed to be making progress with you and I can't be trusted to be kind when dealing with WS's who are so fogged up they make London look like Ari-friggin-zona at noon.

Newsflash:
Yes, you are unique, just like everyone else. Your actions exhibit a pattern of behavior exactly like 98.3% of the other WS's on this board or the spouses of the BS's here. Judgmental? bet your a$$ we are, why? Because what you have been doing is objectively wrong.

Affairs can be explained and are sometimes very predictable - that does not mean you can excuse them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are judgemental. You see me as a predator. You see me as a wandering hopeless man seeking something he knows not what </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well there is a shocker, what could it be that would make anyone judge you so harshly? You are not honest with your OW, you are lying to your wife, you are behaving in a way that could do permanent damage to your child. Does that make you irredeemable? No, there is hope for you. Does it mean that until you stop lying to everyone, most of all yourself, that you will cause a lot of pain and suffering without a thought to who gets destroyed in your pursuit of fulfillment and validation? Yes, you will cause a lot of pain to others who do not deserve it as well as to yourself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She accused me of being a player, smooth operator, "typical horny guy." She now regretted what had happened before and felt betrayed by someone she had felt so close to </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And which part of this is confusing you?

8-time, I am probably wasting my time with you, which is why I haven't posted. Let me tell you about my d-day.
My fiance and I did go through a down period and my life was rotten in many areas then. Relationship going bad, tech bubble burst (Can you say $10M to broke in a week and career gone?), had undergone a very serious accident that almost killed me, life wasn't fair, boohoo, whine, whine... Yes, I had an affair at that point. Ego boost, trophy chick, look at how cool I am. Thought i was something special for a while.

D-day. Oooops. The woman who I love and who stuck with me through all of those rough spots was devastated, her face so contorted in anguish she looked like someone else, her hand (from punching my lights out) as broken as the heart I ripped out of her because I betrayed her, lied to her and never gave her a second thought while worrying about what made me happy. If you could die from heartache, she would have. I have never seen another person suffer that way and pray I never will again. Damned sure it won't be her because I am taking responsibility to protect her feelings first and worry about my [censored] second. Harsh? Sorry, truth is tough, wear a cup.

My daughter almost lost the perfect stepmom.
I almost lost the best thing I have ever found.

Hurting myself (I sure did) is one thing, hurting my loved ones through selfish, cruel and disgustingly deceitful behavior? You think you feel bad now because OW does not see you as a hero?

Little exercise for you, I dare you.

Imagine your wife on the floor sobbing uncontrollably in absolute physical agony.
Picture your little child asking you "Daddy, why is mommy crying?"
Imagine your child finding out why and asking "Daddy, why didn't you love us enough to be happy here?"
Now imagine your child behaving as you do in the future - the evidence is OVERWHELMING that you are encouraging just that.
Now picture the guy you are most jealous of and intimidated by. Imagine your beloved wife blowing him right in front of you and enjoying it.

How ya feeling, Bubba?

My sole purpose here is to wake you up, there is something that can reverse this. I won't bother telling you to come clean yet - there is something you need to do first.

Make a decision.
Make a decision that as of today you will no longer cheat and lie to your wife.
Make a decision to be a husband and father.
Make a decision that getting your knob polished, however entertaining is not worth ripping your wife's heart out, destroying your child's childhood and destroying another family you are not part of.

I won't make excuses and blame fog or life or feelings or any of that soft crap. It is your [censored], you are the master of your own penis. You are not the owner of your feelings, you are the manager of them - you can feel tempted, but you can manage that feeling and say to your penis "I am sorry, you do not make the decisions"
It is not easy but it is damned simple. Act like a MAN, not a freakin hamster and do what you know is right.

Get over yourself already, why did you come here? I suspect that despite your protestations of uniqueness and sadness that you know full well that you are living like a lying sack of [censored].

It ain't rocket surgery Bubba, choose to live as a man and look yourself in the mirror again.

If you think it would be nice to escape life's cruel realities picture your child
"Daddy, I don't understand why you didn't love us like you promised to, isn't it your job to keep us from being hurt??"

Knock off the theatrics and fess up - you know you are wrong in a million ways here. Do one of two things -
1. Decide to do right, make a decision and ask us to help you with the next steps, we will do so kindly and with love in our hearts.
2. Tell us to take a leap, ruin your family, break your kid's heart and decide you are too unique and special unlike the rest of us and are entitled to make your own rules.

Just don't come here and sorta kinda acknowledge that you are wrong and give us this drivel about caring about what is best for OW while thinking only of your own romantic visions of you on a white horse gallantly protecting her from your badness. That, my friend, is the steaming pile behind that pretty white horse. This board is harsh on fairy tale creatures and kind to real world people trying to survive mistakes.

Hamster or man?
Right or wrong?
Excuses or integrity?
Fact or fiction?
Your wants or your family's needs?
Who matters more, you or your wife and child?
Again, it ain't rocket surgery.

if your answer is that what you want is so important that it is worth destroying your own wife and child do us all a favor - go indulge your weaknesses but divorce first and save your family's future, at least have that shred of consideration.

If your answer is that you sincerely want help I will never bash you again, I'll help anyway that i can and would love to. The less you worry about what you want, the more we'll help with what you need. What's it gonna be? 9-time loser or first-time winner?

#1089703 09/23/03 12:45 AM
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<small>[ September 30, 2003, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: 8 Time Loser ]</small>

#1089704 09/23/03 12:51 AM
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Just one question. Are you still wanting it all?

#1089705 09/22/03 02:31 PM
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*parts the fog to wave hi to 2oak*

#1089706 09/22/03 04:03 PM
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<small>[ September 30, 2003, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: 8 Time Loser ]</small>

#1089707 09/22/03 04:47 PM
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You sound a lot better in your last two posts... first I heard that it is all your fault - good, you are getting it, not a single excuse there and you shouldered all the responsibility.

Next thread you encountered OW and your WILL overcame your FEELINGS and you ran like heck because you didn't trust yourself.

THAT is good news, you just came a long way.

I'm sorry if I made you mad but I hope that part of that anger was because it hit home. You have some work to do but if you are firmly set on not having another affair, never restarting the last one and being the type of husband and father you are capable of being then guess what?

This place will help you A LOT.

Yeah, you still have some fog, but you are seeing that fog now and it is normal too. LOTS of FWS's here who were just as angry, just as frustrated and just as ready to throw the monitor out the window.

Now sit back, think for a minute and tell us about why you love your wife and child and what kind of future you want to have with them.

Be mad at me later, humor me for a minute now :-)

#1089708 09/22/03 04:53 PM
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PS> Sorry to rile you up (a little anyway) but I had a point 8-timer.

I really wanted to hear you get pissed off and tell us that NO you are NOT a mindless horndog and that you do have your self-respect still.

Now, re-read your response to my poke and tell me with a straight face you aren't strong enough to choose the right thing rather than open that gate and get washed away.

2.

#1089709 09/22/03 06:43 PM
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<small>[ September 30, 2003, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: 8 Time Loser ]</small>

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