I don't mean to be stereotypical but I do think women in general are much more naive about the true mind set and motivations of male "friends". A woman can truely believe that she is "just friends" with this man but the reality is that she has no idea how he percieves the relationship.

Men...how many times have you pretended to be "just friends" with a woman so that you could spend time with her and hopefully persuade her to become more? Think back to high school and college; it happened all the time. Of course if the relationship never developed further eventually it ended. Of course the women were always amazed and confused at this.

Husbands...how many times have you expressed a concern to your wife about a male "friends" intentions? They look at you like you are the original "green" monster. The reality is that you are a guy and you know how guys think. The same is true with Fathers. Girls should listen to their fathers because they are guys and they were a hormone inflicted teen and they know what their thinking.

Some people would say that two people who don't find each other attractive could become friends. I'd argue that in the beginning that might be true but as the friendship and intimacy grow. The sexual chemistry will grow also. How many times have we seen postings on this board that say my spouse is having an A with someone who is less attractive than me?

Just a few thoughts......

cwmac

I have to admit that I was very naive most of my life about my male "friends." Since I didn't think of them in a sexual way, I couldn't fathom that they thought of me in another way entirely. I think women tend to be driven more by relationships and men more by sex so sometimes we might not understand each other.

The problem is the information age we are in.

In the past intuitive male players knew women wanted to be friends first then see what happened.

Now any guy can pickup a Cosmo or any one of the dozen or so women magazines and read exactly what women want.

So its not shocking that affairs for women are seldom about sex though that is where it eventually leads to. They crave emotional intimacy and that is exactly what a guy "friend" who is a player will give them...emotional intimacy until then can push it to physical intimacy.

It's amazing, but all OM seem to have these things in common:

- they're all very easy to talk to
- they just want to "be there" for a woman
- they have no interest in sex (they're not like other men)
- they're just as shocked as the woman when things become "physical"
- yet, none of them are gay

cpx

Good Day All:

I have to agree. I am a man and yes men have the sex thing always on their mind. I guess the only difference between us is that some act on it and some do not, but the thoughts are there. Some men are predators and it is a game to get her in the sack. For others oppurtunity justs presents itself. There are lots of variables, but there is always a certain degree of sexual tension.

The difference between men and women is easy to spot in our society. In economic terms, just look at the law of supply and demand. The more demand there is for a product or service the more supply is increased. Count the number of male to female strip clubs in any given city. Count the number of men's porn magazines compared to those that cater to women. Male prostitutes to female prositutes. In any given industry were sex is involved the ratio of those that cater to men over women are extrodinary.

As for A's. I am in an industry where there are alot of A's due to conveniance. I have known in the past of numerous affairs of fellow workers, friends and family. The boostful waywards tell their tales of conquest to the applause of the other men. They also state how they keep their catch on the hook using emotion to keep the A alive. I know of men that actually target married women as they will have less problems down the road.

Do men sometimes get emotionally attached, through fog? Yes of course, there are all kinds of variables here. The state of the marriage, LB's etc... In general terms, men have sex on the mind from minute one.

IMO, the only differnce between us is that some act on it and some do not. Some may be more shy, scared, or insecure to act. I am not saying that all men are total pigs. Some do not act just because they have more constitution, and morality.

We are all not bad, we are just more wired that way. Is it possible for a man to not think of sex with a female friend. Anything is possible.

I am a man and yes men have the sex thing always on their mind
You need to change this to, "I am a man and yes Ialways have the sex thing always on my mind."

WE all are naive about friendships..WE dont want to think a female will go after our husbands or vice versa..WE aslo dont want to believe someone ight perceive oppotunities with us that shouldnt be there...For the last 16 months my motto has been "friends who needs in em "

I've always been somewhat suspicious of men's motives where I'm concerned. I was brought up (by Mom's example) to be kind but cool to men other than family. That obviously worked, because I don't recall any situations where a guy was overtly flirting with me or even giving me the "eye".

At least that's how I WAS before H's A#1. Then I did a ridiculous 180 and started flirting. How stoopit <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . I realized that the "vibe" thing that tells guys you're interested in furthering your acquaintance can be turned on and off easily.

I also realized that the many of the guys I though were just friendly guys would cross over the line of TOO friendly with the LEAST amount of encouragement. All it took was eye contact, a smile, and a shy tilt of the head. I am so ashamed to admit I used that...in an effort to try to boost my devastated self-esteem. FYI, that good feeling flirting provides is temporary. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Flirting led to disaster in my case and in H's case. Total disaster. We both had to learn the HARD way how to be nice, but not too friendly with the opposite sex. It's all about boundaries.

Since I turned off the "vibe" for good, I haven't had ONE guy overtly flirt with me (and I'm pretty good looking, if I do say so <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). I don't allow guys to get close enough to be GOOD friends. I'm almost phobic about it now, I think. H is too (with good reason <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

Lori

"I am a man and yes men have the sex thing always on their mind"
"You need to change this to, "I am a man and yes Ialways have the sex thing always on my mind."

OK Chris, touche. Yes, I did speak in absolutes, and should not have done so. I accept putting "I" into that sentance. It was implied anyway.

I stand by what I said. The word "always" is an absolute and so is implying all men. In general, men scope out women physically from the first second of contact. In general, men are much more prone to start a physical relationsip before an emotional one has developed.

If a new employee comes into a company, men in general men will comment on her physically before they comment on her mental strengths for the job. In general men will have a harder time being just friends with a member of the opposite sex that they find attractive.

Keeping my theories in mind. I had a much harder time with my W having a PA as I knew there was a strong EA to get her to the PA, which she did confirm to me. I would have found a one night stand easier to swallow then to deal with the fog and withdrawl that she had. He on the other hand was ready for PA the day she took him as a friend.

I am sorry if I offended you with my absolutes.

Yes...Women are niave about male friends. The problem lies with getting them to realize it.

jd

you know what's going on, don't you? I agree with you totally. it's kind hard to talk about football, fast cars and hot women with another woman. i suppose there are some cases where women and men can be good friends, but for the most part it doesn't happen. of course i remember trying to be friends with a girl i had a crush on. it was pretty obvious that our friendship was growing when we walked around holding hands and then kissing before each class. unless a man or woman is single or unmarried, it's probably not a good idea to have close friends of the opposite sex. believe me...i have know ladies who do the same friend thing just to get closer to the guy they like. it works both ways.

Many times it's not a case of being naive. Some women think they'll always be able to control just how far friendships will go. So they close their eyes to the potential hazards of being too close to another man (other than H/BF, etc.) because they don't want or expect anything to happen.

Sometimes "it" happens anyway...but by then, she's already in too deep.

Just another possible scenerio. You know, women are veeeery complex creatures. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Here's another idea. I think women truely do want to be friends with men. They want to have a relationship with someone "who likes me for me". I want them to like me for the ideas I have not for how I look or for sexual reasons. What they don't realize is that that friend should be a woman not a man.
There probably are a few men out there who are confused as to their motivations and don't immediately know that they have ill intentions. Confused meaning they haven't thought it out to the end result. They want to be the white night to the damsel in distress. To save her from her horrible "ogre" of a husband. But along the way a funny thing happens the knight starts to have unpure thoughts of his lady love. He may try to push these ideas out of his head but when oppurtunity arrives he acts. Whi is more naive the lady or this type of guy?

Naive = Too willing to believe that someone is telling the truth, that people's intentions in general are good or that life is simple and fair.

wow..

could this post get any more broadly generalized...

Sooo all men therefor are predators..incapable of seeing women as anything else but a conquest/potential conquest...

Yes...Women are niave about male friends. The problem lies with getting them to realize it.

I bumped my head when I fell off my chair reading that ...ouch... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

perhaps the hit to the head will help...
maybe it will knock the naiveness out of me... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ARK

I'm really trying to control myself..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Why aren't women SCREAMING/YELLING/PROTESTING about the sterotypes that are being presented here?????

I mean, what.....women don't have brains?

To read this thread one would assume that men that are involved in A's are predators, and only out for one thing....SEX.

What about all the women that are the aggressors in A's?!?!?!?! Or was I the only man EVER to have a woman pursue HIM?!?!?!?! And she wasn't some slut from the red light district. She was as "every woman" as they come.

I grow tired of hearing a lot of men rationalize their way through recovery by making themselves think that their poor, little wife was ravaged by some "Mr. Hyde".

That's not the way it usually happens, and everyone here knows it.

Oscar

Well, call me naive, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> but generalizations are a very valid form of inductive reasoning as long as they are based on a sufficient number of instances from which to draw a conclusion.

I am sure there are many women out there who FULLY understand the way men think, but I have found and experienced the opposite. I am not as clever as most women and was often quite surprised to discover that my male "friend" de jour was sexually interested in me! WTF! I couldn't believe it! I thought my male friends were basically girlfriends in pants. Not so.

Men are different from women and have different motivating factors in their relationships with others. And where women are often naive is when they ascribe their OWN motivations to males. We have to accept that sexes often seek entirely different things in a "friendship." They might just be in it for the friendship, but men are often sexually driven and not looking for just a "friend."

Melody,
Very well put thank you. Your right Men and Women constantly miscommunicate because "women are often naive is when they ascribe their OWN motivations to males" and vice verse. That concept is right out of "Men are from Mars; Women are from Venus" I'm not saying that women don't have brains!! I'm saying exactly what Melody has so articulately stated.
Speaking of that book. Oscar are you in your "cave" right now?? Seems like we are a little angrier today than usual. I hope your wife doesn't ever "follow you in or meet you at the door."
I think most MBers would agree that the sexes would in general fill out Harley's EN's questionaires differently. IMHO most men would have SF in the top 3 if not 1. Admiration would also be high up on the list. Women would on average have SF in the top 5 but might have communication, family commitment or financial support higher on their list. I've actually seen these type of responses in thread after thread and in polls right here on MB. Sorry to throw a little emphirical evidence at the Grouch.

I grow tired of hearing a lot of men rationalize their way through recovery by making themselves think that their poor, little wife was ravaged by some "Mr. Hyde". Oscar I really think you are overreacting to this thread or maybe you've seen others where the OM were treated like Mr. Hydes. Some people say that women are the "gate keeper to sex" without their interest in doesn't happen. A theme that I've repeatedly seen on MB from FWWs is that sex wasn't big on their A priority list but that the EA was but that they felt it was big on the OMs list and because of the emotional closeness if the oppurtunity arose it happened.
Keep in mind, too, that Harley and others say it is natural to villianize the OP. This is so that you can continue to live with your S. This is a protective reaction. It's human nature. Sorry Oscar if that isn't an acceptable answer to you. I realize your perfect and we're not.
Oops not so perfect after all.

I guess I am not following this very well...and know that while I like a good debate I hate it on this forum...

If you are talking about friendships between single available people then I would agree that there may be a motivating sexual factor involved...

but isn't a big part of being single usually entangled with people seeking out mates??

If you are talking about friendships between people who one or both is committed and still applying the same type of sexual pursuit that is engaged in by single people I disagree...

I just don't buy the the male friends I have established...since my betrothal were/are sexually motivated...and realize that stating that...I stand to be accused of being naive in this belief...

I don't believe that the males friends I have made "pretends" to be "just friends"...

Your right Men and Women constantly miscommunicate because "women are often naive is when they ascribe their OWN motivations to males" and vice verse.

I don't think I constantly miscommunicate with people in my life...friends, family, or even spouse...I save all my miscommunication for here...and as a double bonus am often accused of being from Mars rather than my home planet of Venus.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
If this is true...then my whole life is a sham of what I "perceive"...vs what is really just a bunch of people not communicating on the same page...

People set their own boundaries...it has little to do with naiveness in my opinion...

Husbands...how many times have you expressed a concern to your wife about a male "friends" intentions?

This question to me seems so wrong...
wifeys friend can be anything/way he chooses...it is the wifes'(spouse male or female) responsibility in a marriage to set the boundaries that define her (his) comittment ..
his (her) intentions can be whatever...and it isn't naiveness which one crosses the line

I have male friends...some from way back when..
some newer...
my husband has never ever asked me that question...
I just asked him if he ever felt he needed to ask that question....
said nope...

If he did ask me that question...it would send red warning flags to me about MY behavior...not some male friends intentions...

ARK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong>

I don't believe that the males friends I have made "pretends" to be "just friends"...

I don't think I constantly miscommunicate with people in my life...friends, family, or even spouse...I save all my miscommunication for here...and as a double bonus am often accused of being from Mars rather than my home planet of Venus.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
ARK </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ark, first off, I don't think these males in question "pretend" to be just friends. I think they have a sexual interest in the relationship that women are often not aware of. That doesn't mean they aren't "friends" but just that they have a different motivational force. [and I refer to women and men, married and single]

For example, I have 2 very dear male friends, one who has been my friend for 17 years. For 10 years we went out to dinner together every Friday night before our Friday AA meeting. Never in all those years did he ever make a pass or an untoward remark. He was [IS] my friend and I thought of him like a brother.

However, when my last marriage ended he asked me out for a REAL DATE. This surprised me because I never thought of him in that light. He DID think of me in that light - and always had.

My point is that I always viewed him as my male girlfriend and never imagined that he would view me as dating material. I can cite 5 other similar examples in my life.

Now, does that mean he is NOT my friend or he is a "sexual predator?" Of course not!! He is my dear friend to this day, but it simply emphasizes that men often think differently than women and my mistake was to ascribe MY OWN feelings about our "friendship" to him. We are different!

And that does not go to say that your male friends are not absolutely platonic and a sexual thought never crosses their brains. You certainly would know better than anyone here. But your experience does not cancel out the validity of the generality. A generality does not profess to apply to 100% of its subjects, but to many. So one example, or even 10, does not invalidate the generality.

Its been awhile since I read it, but this is an occurance that was outlined in the book, Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus by John Gray, Ph.D. I also recently read an article where a top MC from Chicago claimed that 82% of those presenting with affairs started with a "friendship."