I completed His Needs, Her Needs yesterday.
I'm curious: What do you all recommend regarding fool-proofing my marriage to interference of this sort: a remarried ex-wife (with whom my husband has a grade school-aged child) who is still emotionally attached to my husband (a marriage in which infidelity occurred on his part)?

I now have this concern of a susceptibility to straying, on his part--especially if he has never resolved the issues from his previous marriage and improved his approach/response to disenchantment or whatever it may have been--plus the issue of the ex-wife's orientation toward him, which is evidently obvious to everyone except my husband and her husband... My husband is rather indifferent to the ex-wife but has little tolerance for aggravation from her; her orientation toward my husband is ambivalent--around her husband she's clearly stern and even hostile, otherwise she's civil and even at times, inappropriately warm, in spite of herself... Clearly, she has not healed. Their child is ten years old; their marriage was over (living apart, and the whole nine yards) the same year that their child was born, yet they did not bother to dissolve the marriage until the child was five years old, whatever the reasons (I believe that their reasons were very different from one another)... During that interim there was no further marital contact between them, if you will, no building of false hopes, nor any action toward reconciliation on my husband's part. My issue, at this time, is not this fault, or weak spot, in my husband that is obviously subject to straying; my issue is the ex-wife's nearness, necessitated by the child that they share together... Really, I am speaking as to the recommendations on surviving an affair in regard to HER, even though I'm not talking about an affair here... She cannot, by definition, have zero contact with my husband...they share a minor child. As is typical, my husband and I had to bear intended financial threats from the ex-wife just prior to the wedding... Now she attempts to cross boundaries at times with her presence (e.g., dropping the child off but turning it into a 3-hour stay; I doubt she'll try that again), the extent to which she maintains her relationships with the in-laws (the ones that are now my in-laws)...especially versus her current in-laws, and with requests (e.g., that my husband [her ex-husband] and I be the babysitters for her and her husband's younger children together)... Mind you, we are newlyweds...married this year...

This does not have a one-to-one relationship with the topic, but I find that it is related... If she is remarried yet carrying a torch for my husband, that is actually her problem as well as how that affects her marriage, etc. However, because of the child she shares with my husband, these things do affect our marriage, our household, and me. I am requesting insight, feedback and commentary regarding this blended-family-with-children-issue with an emotional charge...

To recap the issue: because my husband and his ex-wife are no longer married, and because she has been remarried for some years (which helps to mask her [true] feelings) and has children with her new husband (who is rather uninvolved with my husband's child and his transportation and curriculars and extra-curriculars, which previously allowed her contact with my husband to be unwitnessed and unmoderated), and because there is no affair-issue between her and my husband (which would be cause for alarm and drastic measures on both sides), and because her current marriage appears to have some lack and thus is not parallel to that "full-recovery" marital improvement phenomenon subsequent to a wife's affair, and because of the child that she shares with my husband, there is nothing that forces or necessitates her to "get over" my husband or accept that their relationship is over. She can still sustain contact with my husband and attempt to justify it... She can still access and confide in his family, even if it has nothing to do with my husband's child, yet no one (no one who matters to her) will raise an eyebrow...because of the child... This can continue... And the "kicker" is, all the while, I'm wondering, where is her husband when all of this is going on?! Is he working that much that he misses all this? Has she perfected her presentation such that he doesn't have concerns? Is he truly unaware of some of the things she pulls? Again, I am seeking how fool-proofing works against this type of a very-present interference that does force you to extend some boundaries beyond where they normally would lie, especially relation to Dr. Harley's "His Needs..." proactive and recovery tactics, as they can be appropriated.

Thanks for bearing with me as I tried to represent this situation clearly...
Thanks for your feedback...

Were you the OW in their marital breakup?

I now have this concern of a susceptibility to straying, on his part
You should be concerned.

During that interim there was no further marital contact between them, if you will, no building of false hopes, nor any action toward reconciliation on my husband's part.
There are reasons people DON'T get divorced when separated and it has little to do with not wanting to be bothered filing.

The meat and potato's of this is that it has very little to do with the ex's behavior and mostly what your husbands accepts and allows...

she can pretty much do, say, be, whatever she decides..

and because of the child that she shares with my husband, there is nothing that forces or necessitates her to "get over" my husband or accept that their relationship is over. She can still sustain contact with my husband and attempt to justify it...

well obviously their "relationship" in the married sense is over...

there will always be necessary contact...and if there is close contact..it has nothing to do with her in your world...it is your husbands issue...

If he does not set boundaries...it is not her fault...

If he accepts watching her other children as well as shared child...it is not her fault...it is his...

and if he does accept it without a problem..then it is not her or his issue but yours...and you must decide for yourself what you will do about his choice..
and blaming her for his choice...will not serve you well...

If she stays in the home with him for three hours and he does not make other plans that is his fault not hers...

She can still access and confide in his family, even if it has nothing to do with my husband's child, yet no one (no one who matters to her) will raise an eyebrow...because of the child... This can continue...

this actually is none of your business...husbands inlaws can choose to have relationships with whomever they choose....
You have no right to tell them who they can associate with...
I say that not meanly but so that you realize that you are agonizing and perseverating on things you have no control over..and is really none of your business...and you will make yourself crazy in the process...
If you are driving yourself crazy because she is close with the inlaws still that is not serving you well....


what have YOU said to your HUSBAND about your feelings...this is all about him and his boundaries...and has very little to do with the ex-wife.

Does he think it is an issue...
What has he said back to you when you try to discuss this with him...

What boundaries have you put in place to limit your involvement/exposure in their relationship...IF it is normal interactions but one that is driving you crazy..

She does not equal a person to have no contact with as someone who is responsible for adultery...

Are you saying in code that your husband and ex-wife are having an emotional affair...OR are you just afraid it might happen...

Are they meeting emotional needs for eachother or are you just afraid they might....

You married a man with a child and ex...
this is what you signed up for...

If the answer is that there is no real interaction of a real personal issue going on between the two of them..other than your wish she would go away or your perception that she 'might" be too attached...
then this is an issue that exists within you about trusting your spouse...not her...

Is he trust worthy?..regardless of her behaviors..

lots of questions. I know..
ARK

<small>[ November 05, 2003, 05:59 AM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by A.M.Martin:
<strong> Were you the OW in their marital breakup? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll admit that question crossed my mind too...but fact is, it makes absolutely no difference. They are married, and that is all that is relevant.

The ex-wife is a lover who is a threat to you, just like my H's affair partner is a lover who is a threat to me, the wife.

Sufdb -- The reason I asked is that it may be relevant to the dynamics of the situation, specifically, to Aquephoenix's anxieties.

No way. They broke up a decade ago. But that's a good question. Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by A.M.Martin:
<strong> Were you the OW in their marital breakup? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Correct. It's a fault (weak point). From human nature to familiar spirits--the rearing of an ugly head will threaten to be right there.

As to the delinquency of finalizing a divorce, you're absolutely right. I think they had different reasons, none of them being not wanting to be bothered filing.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong> I now have this concern of a susceptibility to straying, on his part
You should be concerned.

During that interim there was no further marital contact between them, if you will, no building of false hopes, nor any action toward reconciliation on my husband's part.
There are reasons people DON'T get divorced when separated and it has little to do with not wanting to be bothered filing. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

True, it has to do with what my husband accepts and allows. It has to do, also, with what we won't accept and allow. But I am also interested in what she finds worth attempting--I'm not "missing" that...

Necessary contact, I know and accept; extensive, unnecessary contact--my vote is "not necessary".

Again, I'm speaking not so much as to what "is happening", as in, recurrent things... I am speaking as to what has been attempted... Not the failure to set boundaries but the attempt to cross boundaries...

I don't think I'm blaming her for any choice on his part...there was no choice, but the presentation of her suggestion... Her suggestion, itself, is what I'm interested in... Of all the people in the world to watch your children... Your husband's family, some of your family...but you pick your ex-husband and his new wife...? The act in isolation is not the concern, the total picture is the concern...

She stayed in the home with US for 3 hrs... Being cordial and friendly, inviting you to at least come inside was not an invitation for "family night"... It has not happened since. ...I am casting it out there for you to make what you will of the picture (although not hiding the image that I see and that I don't like it).

I don't try to control ex-wife. I just notice. Her relationships with my in-laws are not broken. However, even with my own mother I question her judgment in choices relating to holiday times, etc., with her in-laws (my dad's family)... I recognize that this is a standing issue with me. My position does not change. You have a minor child--those relationships should be, at least, civil. Your still confiding in them about various things, though, and certain things that you choose to do with them when you don't do those things with your own husband's family... I notice it. I never meant to sound as if I think she should divorce them, too.

There is nothing posted that I haven't said to my husband. Without having anything to hide, I'll respectfully refrain from posting his responses to me. I'll post a framework to see what you all think, but I don't think I want to post the contents of our conversations... No offense, I just don't want to do that... I'm not complaining about some ongoing problem; I really am offering a situation to you all in the context of His Needs, Her Needs, and how a situation like this does not allow that person who is hanging on to make that full separation that, for example, a cheating spouse would have to make... There's all this "extra" in many places that comes from a source of "extra"...

I actually don't try to limit my exposure to them... I am parent #4, so I am involved, even more so than parent #3, probably. If anything, I make our exposure joint. If you can talk to him, you can also talk to me. If he can pick the child up, I can pick the child up. Not like, this is my husband's child, so let my husband deal with the child. On her end, however, most of everything comes from her. Whatever goes on or is said, her husband is pretty much unaware, I presume. She even has said things to me that she immediately showed she wouldn't repeat (in entirety) to my husband. She takes on a different persona around her husband. Not acceptable. I can't control what you say to your husband, but I am not your girl friend. If you can't say something to my husband, then you shouldn't say it to me, either...

I'm not making her equal to a person who has committed adultery. What I'm trying to do is present how those "no contact" guidelines among others are put there to make a person "let go". Regardless of the inappropriate nature of what a person in an affair is holding onto, that is what it is designed to do, I gather. But in a situation where a child is involved--aside from the affair context--that is impossible. You can't have no contact. What I'm asking is, what then? That person cannot even use the structural tools that will help them let that plant die at the root, to use a metaphor. Affair or not. The ex still carries something... There is no incentive for her to drop the torch because she is hiding it well from those to whom it matters or from those who wish to believe otherwise and therefore elect to be fooled. Others around who have no stake in it all see the same thing.

I'm happy I'm married who I married. No regrets there.

No emotional affair between them, just an emotional attachment on her part, yet and still, that does play out in different ways, even after all these years... Emotional needs--no. That's not a denial "no", that's a straight "no".

She's not going away. I'd be a fool to wish for that or to try to pretend like that would happen... The child needs her, so that's not even close to what could be called the child's "best interest". Respect for boundaries would be appreciated. She has improved since we got married... She hasn't called him at 11 p.m. for irrelevant reasons (unrelated to the child in any shape, form or fashion)... And my husband has improved--he has become more tolerant of her and quit talking to her in a way that even offends me. The reality is, we have a child--instant family--whereas they did not, so we could never have the same starting block. But reasonable space would be nice, as they had plenty of space when they first started out. Don't try to become an extension onto our marriage, don't ask us to be responsible for your kids, don't talk to husband however and then follow with some strange, ironic gesture... I cannot do anything about any feelings she may be harboring. Their manifestation--although natural--I don't have to just witness that and tolerate all its effects, I feel. No more than if the situation were mirrored do I think my husband would appreciate that from some ex-husband of mine...

I hope this makes better sense...


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong> The meat and potato's of this is that it has very little to do with the ex's behavior and mostly what your husbands accepts and allows...

she can pretty much do, say, be, whatever she decides..

and because of the child that she shares with my husband, there is nothing that forces or necessitates her to "get over" my husband or accept that their relationship is over. She can still sustain contact with my husband and attempt to justify it...

well obviously their "relationship" in the married sense is over...

there will always be necessary contact...and if there is close contact..it has nothing to do with her in your world...it is your husbands issue...

If he does not set boundaries...it is not her fault...

If he accepts watching her other children as well as shared child...it is not her fault...it is his...

and if he does accept it without a problem..then it is not her or his issue but yours...and you must decide for yourself what you will do about his choice..
and blaming her for his choice...will not serve you well...

If she stays in the home with him for three hours and he does not make other plans that is his fault not hers...

She can still access and confide in his family, even if it has nothing to do with my husband's child, yet no one (no one who matters to her) will raise an eyebrow...because of the child... This can continue...

this actually is none of your business...husbands inlaws can choose to have relationships with whomever they choose....
You have no right to tell them who they can associate with...
I say that not meanly but so that you realize that you are agonizing and perseverating on things you have no control over..and is really none of your business...and you will make yourself crazy in the process...
If you are driving yourself crazy because she is close with the inlaws still that is not serving you well....


what have YOU said to your HUSBAND about your feelings...this is all about him and his boundaries...and has very little to do with the ex-wife.

Does he think it is an issue...
What has he said back to you when you try to discuss this with him...

What boundaries have you put in place to limit your involvement/exposure in their relationship...IF it is normal interactions but one that is driving you crazy..

She does not equal a person to have no contact with as someone who is responsible for adultery...

Are you saying in code that your husband and ex-wife are having an emotional affair...OR are you just afraid it might happen...

Are they meeting emotional needs for eachother or are you just afraid they might....

You married a man with a child and ex...
this is what you signed up for...

If the answer is that there is no real interaction of a real personal issue going on between the two of them..other than your wish she would go away or your perception that she 'might" be too attached...
then this is an issue that exists within you about trusting your spouse...not her...

Is he trust worthy?..regardless of her behaviors..

lots of questions. I know..
ARK </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I now have this concern of a susceptibility to straying, on his part
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why? Did he do this in his previous marriage?

If so, than I suspect your fear is not about the perceived attachment your H's ex has with your H but your own fear that H's previous behavior with ex will repeat itself in your marriage. THIS IS A VALID CONCERN.

If this is not the case, then I suggest rather than worry about what 'might' happen, you refocus your energy on why you're feeling the way that you are and what you can do to fully meet H's needs.

I can guarantee you, the more energy and attention that you give this in an attempt to try and control the situation, the more power it will have over your marriage potentially causing LB withdrawls.

Good Luck.


Godd Luck.

I guess that's about right... Although ex-wife is not an affair partner, I'm comparing this to the experience of having that woman (really) around, still, and the things that will come forth due to her feelings... Of course, the husband is in a different position, so the real "threat" is not there... I'm not just saying simply having the ex-wife around. That's situation is a dime a dozen, these days. But an ex-wife with a volatile but uncomfortably ambivalent relationship toward the husband... I know many people truly blend the families and everyone is friends, but I imagine that takes place when everyone has their boundaries and everyone respects that, and each spouse's heart is undoubtedly turned toward their own spouse... But I've been there before--although that was in my youth and I was not married, I knew what it was like to be in relationship with person A and still fight yourself about your feelings for person B... It was miserable, and you yearned in secret... You hid it with all your might, though some saw through you... I have no idea what it's like to feel that way about a remarried ex-husband with whom you have a child. Just because I can imagine and come up with some compassion for her doesn't mean that she has a blank check inside my marriage just because she is the mother of shared child. She does not have that key and cannot. Again, my comments are less about occurrences (definitely not about recurrences) but more about her orientation itself and things that come forth thereof that do affect our marriage/household, etc.

I hope I am being clear.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by broken heart and arm:
<strong> The ex-wife is a lover who is a threat to you, just like my H's affair partner is a lover who is a threat to me, the wife. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I imagine that takes place when everyone has their boundaries and everyone respects that, and each spouse's heart is undoubtedly turned toward their own spouse... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True....but there's also trust. Do you not trust your H? Did he stray in his previous relationship with ex?

Unless your H is showing some emotional interest his ex, other than being cordial, respectful, etc. I'm not understanding what the problem is here other than YOUR fear that H will stray from your marriage??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

This is a pretty tough one, Aqua. It's pretty obvious that the relationship never ended for her, that the door never really closed. Understandably, as it ended in an A. Many of us know what it is like to come down with a bump that way.

Have you tried talking to the Harleys? What if you tried talking to her directly, and discussing her feelings?

Obviously, with kids, she's not going to be out of the picture.

Aqua...

I am still having a hard time seeing why you are focused so much on her behavior...and not addressing this from your own actions and thos of your husbands...

Even the examples don't paint a clear picture because you go back and clarify that it only happened once...or that it was something she used to do...

Does being an ex-wife automatically win her status of needing to be treated as a threat to your marriage...

I don't think so...
and even if her actions are intrusive...that's what they are..
you can't do anything about that...except limit the intrusiveness allowed in your world..

She asks you guys to babysit..for whatever reason...who cares why...it is still up to you and hubby to say and yes or no..and if you say OK then it is not her problem or fault or issue but yours and yours alone...


just an emotional attachment on her part, yet and still, that does play out in different ways, even after all these years... Emotional needs--no. That's not a denial "no", that's a straight "no".

what does it matter what she feels for your husband if their is no concrete manifestation of his or her part...

and how could you possibly ever change how she feels....

Don't try to become an extension onto our marriage, don't ask us to be responsible for your kids,

she can try and ask all she wants...set the boundaries and limits you feel are necessary and don't spend an ounce of energy trying to figure out her motives...that will get you no where...

She hasn't called him at 11 p.m. for irrelevant reasons (unrelated to the child in any shape, form or fashion)...

so why bring it up if it is no longer an issue...and I'm not challenging you in an aggressive manner...but trying to see if you see yourself as spending too much energy over things that you have no control over....

I don't have to just witness that and tolerate all its effects,

what effects that the two are cordial and chit chat...

seriously what effects...

It is starting to sound like that the only interactions you want or expect between her and hubby are concrete interactions about the child only and nothing else...
It is healthy for the child to see her parents getting along and will decrease mucy stress in the future as her life brings on more engagements when she will want and need both parents there...and will not have the added stress of worrying if the grownups will act like grownups,

ark

ok--ive read and re-read it and have a few questions. one----do you allways refer to your step-child so coldly and clinically??? just strikes me as really odd.

two----how long did you date your hubby???? i ask this because you speak of past behavior of the exwife. did this gon on during that time or did you just find this all out?

if you knew or saw this before---did you think marriage would automatically change their dynamic??

also and lastly---you need to make your primary concern your hubby's reaction to all of this. does he know you are not pleased? what does he say?

...I said to myself that I wouldn't post any more, that I would just read and absorb... I have to respond here:

I am trying to put out here a situation and ask how the recommendations in the book (His Needs...) apply in this context.

I'm trying to represent this situation clearly (to specify that who I would otherwise say is "my" child is actually my husband's and his ex-wife's child), without emotional charge, and without even referring to the sex of this child; so, yes, I'm doing so intentionally, also because all of that is not central to what I'm proposing... I'm not seeking advice, I'm not posting in panic or full of anxiety... I love the responses and appreciate ALL of them... But I promise you I am just tossing a ball out there for feedback as to a situation in which it seems certain recommendations cannot apply...?...granted, it is not an "A" situation... (Also, I am learning the lingo here [e.g., "shared child"]...) I've already said ages and described a very detailed situation... I, myself, have told a lot of people about this book and this site who don't know even this much of my business... I prefer to keep it that way, for obvious reasons. Given the sensitivity of these things and this "small world", I'm trying to, as objectively as possible, focus on the facts (events) and not on identities and personalities. You understand... (In other words, I'd speak just as objectively [on the internet] about my natural-born child.)


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nikko:
<strong> ok--ive read and re-read it and have a few questions. one----do you allways refer to your step-child so coldly and clinically??? just strikes me as really odd.

two----how long did you date your hubby???? i ask this because you speak of past behavior of the exwife. did this gon on during that time or did you just find this all out?

if you knew or saw this before---did you think marriage would automatically change their dynamic??

also and lastly---you need to make your primary concern your hubby's reaction to all of this. does he know you are not pleased? what does he say? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

It is my opinion that affair-proofing your marriage based on his needs/her needs..does not apply in the sense that you are asking if it should apply to the ex-wife..
EVEN if she still shows an emotional attachment to your husband..which in all honestly is not clear...most likely due to the nature of the beast of posting on a message board lacking all the real life inflection and emotions...

affair proofing your marriage lies soley on the husband and wife regardless of others intervention in the sense...that all of us married are at risk for encountering people that show inappropriate attention our way..and it is our own boundaries...not their behavior that define affair proofing ourselves...

ex-wife does not equal no-contact status as an OtherPerson does...

It is difficult when you choose to not post is responses to your concerns because he and you are really the key players not the ex-wife...
It is difficult with someone as cryptic as you to understand the situation clearly...

affair proofing is hubby's job...which does need addressed since he is the one who has a pattern of gross disrepect to marriage vows...

I hope you have do will address this issue head on with him...

ARK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong>
affair proofing your marriage lies soley on the husband and wife regardless of others intervention in the sense...that all of us married are at risk for encountering people that show inappropriate attention our way..and it is our own boundaries...not their behavior that define affair proofing ourselves...

I hope you have do will address this issue head on with him...

ARK </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ditto here, let us know your feelings following your discussions with H. Perhaps than we'll have a better understanding of your position.

you spent alot of time answering part of my question....but none of the rest??? i can appreciate and understand needs for privacy. thank you for clearing that up. why didnt you address the rest of my questions?

we ask because it seems like you are going at this the wrong way. you want to change someone else's behavior---aint gonna happen. we have all tried. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

and i also have a clue as to what you speak of--i am an ex-wife to someone.