OK, 2x4 time. But, I may need a sledge hammer. Or maybe not. You see, all I know is what I read and infer from your threads, and I know very well that that does not convey the whole picture. Furthermore, I am gong to make some assumptions about what is gong on to fill in the blanks that may or may not be valid. Test my words with your experience. I hope they are helpful.

I want to start by picking out one thing (a DJ) you said, and using that hammer: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When I told her that it sounded like she was just making excuses so she could separate and divorce, she lit into me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM: You really had problems doing a good Plan A, as I recall, mostly because of your inability to handle your anger, and it is aparent you did not learn the primary lesson of Plan A: NO LB's!!!!! It is the one part of Plan A that is supposed to be permanent and universal. According to the Bible (see I Peter 3:7 - the "consider her as the weaker vessel" thing), and current research (what a coincidence) avoiding LB's is a more important priority for men than women. Smalley wrote a whole book on it, just for men (If Only He Knew). In that book, Smalley has a list of about 140 things that you should avoid doing to your wife. According to my wife, I was only dong two of them before her A. They were inadvertent on my part. It was still enough to cause her to withdraw from me and leave her vulnerable for an A.

OK, here is the "assumptions" part, where I am going out on a limb to smack you with that hammer: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She is saying that she cannot function under the current situation. That she is anxious and upset most of the time. Mostly because I am anxious and upset that she has yet to get back into this marriage or do anything positive to move it forward. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Harley says that it isn't the past that is the problem, it's the present. I was pretty skeptical about this, at first, and I am sure there are exceptions, but he has a LOT of experience with this. I called him once about something that involved delving into the past, and he was all over me about what we were not doing now that was probably provoking my feelings that we needed to resolve something from the past. He was right. Schnarch talks about “resolving the past in the present”, and gives examples in his books, as well. I have run into lots of other therapists that have taken a similar approach. And, based on the quote above, I think your wife is in agreement with them, despite what she says about not being able to let go of her anger because of her personal history (though her history may, indeed be making things worse). With that in mind, I think she can't forgive you because you continue to LB - possibly even in ways neither of you recognize (and you have admitted that you do LB in ways you do recognize). I am afraid the separation may doom your marriage because she will feel such a sense of relief from being out of range from you that SHE will be the one to initiate divorce. She says “you are killing each other”. When are you going to stop your half of that? I heard a marriage therapist on Focus in the Family the other day who has written a book called something like “Safe Haven Marriage”, and she really emphasized how important it was to be able to be emotionally honest. Have you created an emotionally safe environment for your wife? I doubt it. I know you have come here and written about how angry you are about things that she is not doing. I see you reporting communication between you where you make demands and throw DJ’s all over the place, and I see you punishing her in this latest situation for being honest.

Which brings up the solution, if my analysis is right: and stuffing your anger does not work, so I am not suggesting that. What I am suggesting is that you dig below your anger and find the fear, frustration, or pain that is causing it. Your anger is a valuable guide that will point you to the critical issues that you need to resolve. Let me give you an example from your current situation: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And then I told her again that separation now, because there was an affair, is not possible. Before the affair…sure. It would make sense because of what is happening. But now…no. I couldn’t and wouldn’t function that way. My kids wouldn’t understand. [DJ about them]They would just see Mom leaving again, only to come back 6 months later. No! I can’t [good] and I won’t.

I told her that this would have to [demand] be done in the confines of the marriage. She said “Well, where’s the compromise here, if you wont do separation?” I told her separation isn’t compromise, it is the end [DJ]. Compromise is coming up with a workable plan, schedule, solution, etc that we can both feel safe in while she works thru her personal issues [GREAT!]. But separation isn’t one of those options[demand].

So, I have told her what I feel [nope, you’ve mostly made DJ’s and demands]. That I know what we can be[DJ!?!]. That her revelation on her anger from throughout her life explains a lot of what has happened, including the affair [DJ]. It explains why she hasn’t made the effort to moving forward since she came home[DJ-even though it is only affirming the J she has made about herself]. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let me suggest what you might have said that would have avoided the DJ’s and demands, and also been emotionally honest enough that it would draw you closer by allowing her to understand you better. (I understand you may have done some of this, and I am criticizing the conversation as you reported it, not as it actually occurred.) How about if you said the following (modified to be true for what you are really feeling)?:
“If we separate again, I don’t think I can do it. I am afraid that you will cheat on me again. I am not strong enough to go through just the pain of that fear again. I don’t know how to explain your leaving again to the kids. I am afraid that they wouldn’t understand, and that the pain of having their family torn apart again would be too much for them. I am afraid that seeing their pain would be too much for me. I am exhausted. As much as I want to, I just don’t think I can do it. I have been through too much pain."

You need to open your heart to her in a way that she can actually hear you, not covered up with so much anger that she just gets defensive. Stop protecting yourself with your anger, and start protecting her from it. Just be honest with her, God and yourself about the emotions underneath the anger.

JL’s suggestions are excellent.

Harley does say separations are useful in cases of abuse, and this may qualify.

The bottom line is: what does God want you to do?

Mortarman - I feel strange giving you advice, since I consider you an expert here. But from a female point of view, women need intimacy before they can respond sexually. Yes she needs to work on her issues and counseling. In the meantime you need to take care of SF yourself and completely stop pushing wife. But take her on walks, go out together, give her massages, and take a little R & R from the war. Just try to have fun together for awhile. I bet that if you stop trying so hard she will come around. Hang in there, we are all counting on you to make it through this.

GG007: Problem is, for the last 6 months, things have steadily gotten worse. As my wife pointed out, we are in a death cycle. And the bad times in the cycle are increasing, while the good are lessening. Things are not getting better...only worse. Most of that has to do with her doing NOTHING toward the relatioonship for the last 6 months. She says hse has been doing the best she can, considering what she just told me about the anger and resentment. But her best has been nothing to me. And so, I continue to feel worse and act upon that because I want a relationship with her...and still feel trapped outside.

I sit here and wonder why you keep "clingy" to a method that you BOTH believe isn't working...
Neither one of you are happy, you both admit it has gotten WORSE, and yet you keep wanting to say the solution is for HER to try.. even though she says that is not going to work for her..

You want honesty, and then when she is honest with you, you are basically telling her "don't tell me that"........

Solution....

LET HER GO!!! If you truly love her then why won't you let her go? If you have decided that you will divorce her if she goes, that is fine. That leaves her with the consequences of her decision..

Mortarman, you can and will be just perfectly fine if she leaves. The harder you try to save a relationship the more it evades you...

Tell her that YOU have decided that maybe it is best that she leave because you don't want to live like this anymore either....

Don't you see the wisdom of letting go of this obcession to make it work. She has felt nothing but pressure this whole time. Pressure does not work to get people to CHOOSE to do things. What works is the total opposite.. NO PRESSURE....

Looks like I am alone in this view, but again I must say... what you keep doing and have been trying to do is not working.. why not try a method that has been proven to work..(letting go)?

The danger as Steve described it to me is that even though you may not be in love or even very serious about this other person it's planting the thought in your head that you could be happy elsewhere and that life could be good without your family intact.

So, let me get this straight.... It is NOT ok to have thoughts in your head that life could be good and you could be HAPPY without your family intact?

And it is OK to keep staying in a relationship where both people are unhappy.
Keep those thoughts that you can possilby be happy if things don't work out out of your head..????

I think this is total nonsense.. It is actually HEALTHY to know and realize that you can be happy whatever the outcome....

The GOAL should be to be HAPPY whatever the outcome.

Mortarman I totally agree with John's excellent script:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"If we separate again, I don’t think I can do it. I am afraid that you will cheat on me again. I am not strong enough to go through just the pain of that fear again. I don’t know how to explain your leaving again to the kids. I am afraid that they wouldn’t understand, and that the pain of having their family torn apart again would be too much for them. I am afraid that seeing their pain would be too much for me. I am exhausted. As much as I want to, I just don’t think I can do it. I have been through too much pain."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If after this your W stills takes it upon herself to separate, then she has no one to blame but herself for the consequences of her actions. At this point in time then I would agree with Keepmvn4wrd comments about you letting go of her.

Hi MM,

Sorry to hear of the latest events so I'd thought I'd throw in my 2 cents (if you don't mind).

IMHO, your W is still have an A. For real or just in her mind it is still an A with the ability to do the same damage. Something about women, we tend to fantasize more and leave reality in that dream world. Guys like action, most women like to dream. Did you see the Dr. Phil show where the girl planned her wedding but there is no groom? That happens way more often than we know but when the girl is alredy in her 30s..... well acting out one's dreams at 15 vs 30 makes one seem questionable. For many women, the A does the same thing to them and the effect is chaos to the family. At those times, all real family R's become an obstacle.

Now my take is similar to Lor's, you may need to treat this as if she is having an A (EA). Then step back prepare for the worst and let her go.

U keep the family home and the children. Treat it as a woman gone insane and protect you, your children, your home and your finances. Serious.

Let her know you love her but you all just can't live with her disrespect for you and your family. Put her out there on her own. You see she is testing you. She wants you to push her out so she can in her little mind, blame you

Why do I say this? Because what you have written is very very similar to what Lor and I have gone through, several times. For me it was 2 1/2 years after the WS came home. Yes, really. So I understand about your being at your wits end.

Do you recall on some of my other posts, I mention about plan B always being kept in my back pocket? Well that is why. You see once you begin your personal recovery and the WS attempts to start recovery but fails at times, whipping out the plan B avoids the LB marks. Why? Because plan B puts sets your boundaries and puts distance between you/family and the cause of the pain.

Another piece I told my H was that when he came back (I kept those words positive), I told him when he came back the stakes for his return would be higher. Each time they went up, not down. In the sense that more was to be expected of him, not less. I no longer chose to stoop to meet his needs, he needed to meet ours.

Don't get me wrong, I did not stop meeting his needs but they were not 1st. I did not cater to him.

What resulted? His attitude changed. We now do things more as a family vs independent. A look will make him wonder then ask how am I doing. Affection has returned, trust is in the works (that one will take a lot longer). Who is the driver now? At first it was more me. Now we are learning to share that lead by taking the other's needs into consideration. Not do them, consider then together. Hard to do very hard but doable.

MM, I know you can survive this. Step back and take a look at what you have gone through and how you can direct at least a part of what is ahead. Control what you can and let go what you can't.

take care,
L.

MM,

I has been cheated again after I thought my M was going good after the first d-day ... it came back w/ vengance 3 years later ... why ?. Dummy me, I had the prove now on my hand that she contacted him 6 months after she promised of NC and this time she was getting smarter !.

Look at the fact, use your head, not your heart and certainly not your other head. You want this M to work out you might be blinded by it. Snoop and find out. I agree 100% w/ you on separation mean the end, if there is any hope of your M ... this is the most crucial time. I know you could hold not receiving ENs from her (your other head's taker is talking) and still have enough juice to go the distance. But if she won't let you fillin her ENs there is no hope of your M ... period.

I would get SH or Jen C a call.

-rh-

Mortarman,

I don't think the OM is in the picture but it sure would be alot easier to bring him back if she were out of the house...so on the no separtion requirement I agree with you.


But I am bothered by the fact that your divorcee friend is anywhere in your mind. I know you are not pursuing this woman but I also know it is much easier to let your heart harden when you allow yourself to believe the grass will be greener on the other side.

Comments like...my sources tell me she is taking it easy...and waiting to see how things turn out with me...make me sick to my stomach. First of all what kind of "sources" would want you, a married man with children, to know such things. What purpose would a supportive friend want you to know there is a woman out there available to fulfill your needs very quickly after your divorce. And if you are searching out this information then I am disappointed in you. There is no reason any married man should inquire about the status of any woman's feelings or plans regarding her personal life other than his wife. If you are not searching out this information then you should have more conviction and tell your sources this inforamtion may be important to an unmarried mortarman but it certainly is detrimental to a man in the trials of recovery.

Mortarman, I know you have been through alot and I would not blame you if you were done with the marriage. But if youa are going to go don't go out like this.

Believe me I understand how hard it is to be the only one working on the marriage and I understand how alluring the possiblities of fulfillment with another seems but would you really be the man you know you can be if you spend one minute of your married life considering life with another woman. Why is your heart hardening now? I know it is because you wife continues the torture of withdrawl but is it a tiny bit easier to let your marriage go because there is a warm spot in your heart for your "friend". A warm spot your nuturing by having "sources" who supply you with the information your heart wants...admiration, the promise of affection and SF.

It is just amazing to me now that after all that you have gone through, now when you yourself say you believe she has made a breakthrough, now when she is trying to be honest, now when she is trying to face the horrors she has created in her marriage and family life, now your ready to give up!?!

I know when things are tough it is easy to think, Why do I put up with this, there are people out there who would treat me right? But it is unfair to your wife, your "friend" and the man who has come this far to personalize that question. Unfair to your wife because you have pursued this marriage to the nth degree and now when she starts to own up to her behavior it is too little too late-I agree she may deserve that but it is not what you have presented to her thus far. It is unfair to your "friend" because you will enevitabley look to heal your wounds within your relationship with her-that won't happen. And unfair to you because this is plainly beneath you.

If your marriage is over it is over. And I commend you for giving it everything. But keep this woman and your "non" pursuit of her out of your married life. When your tempted to think of her, pray, when your sources want to discuss her, don't do it, pray. You are a married man, an unfulfilled, frustrated married man, but married none the less. Married men don't considered the possibilities available to them if and when they divorce...at least honorable married men don't. And you have been nothing if not honorable...continue to be.


continuing prayers,

ayslyne

MM,

What would the good Dr. Dobson say? You are holding her too tight and she is struggling to get away. Recommend a refresher reading of Love Must Be Tough. Time to retreat and regroup.

Remember, if she is pulling in one direction and you grab onto her and hold on, she will always be looking for the opportunity to escape. Back off for a while, take the pressure off. Do what was recommended earlier: ignore SF for now, keep the relationship light and non-threatening. Allow her to become comfortable and relax with you again.

Good luck.

What happens when, after PlanB, the WS returns home only to finish depleating the LB? Isn't it possible that the BS may finally run out of love for the WS after they return?
Mortarman, for 18 months you have been trying everything you could do to save your M, and you have my respect for it. But no M can survive an A if only one S is willing to do what is necessary for the recovery, and that includes fulfilling the EN of the other. There are as many excuses for not meeting EN as there are for having an A.
I think that you, and I, may be in the BS fog fantasy: that if we can only get the WS to leave the OP and return everything will be right again. Return only offers the chance of recovery, not the guarantee of recovery. Both you and your wife must understand that this may be your last chance.
Stay strong.

MM,

Wow. You have gotten the gambit of replies from some very knowledgable people here man. Sorry, guess I'll give a little more... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But take it as you will. No disrespect intended toward you or WS.

I remember the posts from when you were seeing the other woman you have mentioned in this post. I remember how torn you were back then. I remember thinking how this whole recovery with your wife seemed not exactly right. I may have even posted on my feelings at that time, sorry I do not remember.

I guess MM, what I really want to say is,(and I realize this is NOT a poll)I agree wholeheartedly with what you feel now. ENOUGH! Hold her butt to the fire. She gives 100% effort to stay in and save the marriage now, or she is out of there for good. MM has lived with this pain and neglect long enough.

It has always been my prayer that your WS would not only return home, but do the hard work necessary(from the start)to repair the marriage. This is proof positive she has not. And how much more time has passed since she returned home? That is a long time.

I pray for you man. No 2X4s from me. It is a fact that not all marriages can be saved.

Guess I better put on my armor now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

jd

MM-

You've received some great advice and have lots to consider so I'll just highlight some earlier posts and let you know we're praying for you. Please know too that your contributions to these boards over the last few years are a big reason why you've received so much advice. People really care and want to see your M succeed!!

IMO, there are a few things that should have priority over all else for the forseeable future in your M. First off, you'll need to continue to work on not LB'ing when the two of you communicate. Instead of expressing anger at her not meeting your needs, tell her why you're mad in a non-LB sort of way. As someone mentioned earlier, the goal should be to create a environment where both of you feel safe talking with one another without fear of LB's.

Secondly, take some time to consider where all the anger is coming from. The easy answer is that it's because you haven't had your EN's met in like....forever!! And to a certain extent, that's understandable. If you look further though, the real cause will most likely be fear so examine that angle.

Are you afraid of being alone for the rest of your life? Worried that you might not find the same kind of love you had with her? Does it seem like it would be too much to hack it alone with kids, juggling a career, etc? If you can start communicating that fear to her, it WILL bring you closer together and increase your chances of working this out.

Finally, more snooping is in order to confirm that she isn't in contact with this OP. As you know, continued contact would absolutely destroy any chances for R. Does she understand how important it is that she be accountable for her time away? Passwords to cell phones, work phones, computers, etc.? Hopefully this last point is a non-issue, but it has to be verified. Good luck MM, we're pulling for you.....

<small>[ November 09, 2003, 07:49 AM: Message edited by: litchfield ]</small>

MM -

John39 is better with the 2x4s than I ever will be. Thanks, John! That's EXACTLY what I was sensing.

Now, to re-emphasize things:

- Your wife is angry. Sure, she's thinking about the past, but what's she's telling you is that she's angry RIGHT NOW. Probably at you. And my guess is that she has no idea how to express it, and is terrified of your reactions to that anger.

- YOU are angry. And you're expressing it in ways that you can see and ways that you CAN'T see.

So deal with the anger! Right here, right now! Anger management classes for BOTH of you, and yes, NO ANGRY DISCUSSIONS AT ALL until you can get that done.

And go get a book called "Anger" by Thich Nhat Hanh. He's a Buddhist monk, and as you know, the Buddhists are some of the most pacific people anywhere. I find his stuff to be amazingly accessible.

There are Christian texts on it, too, but you're so wrapped in Christianity that I'm afraid you'll miss the message and instead get wrapped up in the messenger. You need 2x4s, here, not religious text interpretation. So step out of your box and take the 2x4s!!

By the way, the introduction to the book is about a woman who was in even more dire straits than your wife is. Things were so bad in her marriage that she'd decided suicide was the right answer. She made it back on her own, and helped her husband get there too. Can YOU do that for your wife?? I want to know.

MM: whether the 2x4 was deserved or not, know that my wife and I are praying for you.

To completely change gears: You know, I have been ruminating on session one of Gary Smalley's video series "Solving the Real Love in the Real World Puzzle" quite a bit lately, and I would bet it applies to your situation. We know that the Harley program works 100% of the time, for the people that can actually do it. The problem is that not everyone manages to do it. So I was wondering about how to deal with the problems that prevent people from staying with the program, and when I saw that video, a light bulb went off. My first thought was: "Isn't Harley brilliant? If you do things his way, you will never have this kind of problem." After some reflection (including on our own situation), I realized that what Smalley describes is EXACTLY the kind of thing that could short-circuit a couple's attempt to live out the Harley principles in their marriage. Smalley's organization offers intensive 2- or 3- day programs that start with the exercise described on that video. They claim an amazing success rate for the program, even for people on the brink of divorce.

The theory is: behind every repeating, unresolved conflict that couples have, there is a fear on both their parts, which makes teh conflict impossible to resolve. When you identify the fear behind each person's side of the conflict, it is possible to come up with ways of dealing with the underlying issues instead of the surface issues - which can never be dealt with effectively becasue they do not get to the root of the problem, AND because the fear they trigger makes it almost impossible for us to deal rationally with the surface issue. Smalley calls this spiral of unresolved conflicts "the Fear Dance". So, if you can figure out what fear for each of you lies underneath your repeated conflicts, and deal with THAT, not whatever the surface issues is that triggers it, you may be able to resolve this yourself. If not, run this idea by Steve, or talk to the Smalley people. (http://smalley.gospelcom.net/)

logical leap #2 (I suppose this belongs bakc in the 2x4 section)

Are you still counseling w/ Steve, and if so, what does he say? Same thing he said last month? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Steve left me with both of us having our own plans right now. I am to only protect her from myself. No educating her, no demands to meet ENs...really no R talk. If she starts pulling me down that path, we now have a code phrase that tells the other to stop what they are doing. We are to say "I can't talk right now." If I am LBing or doing something that she is uncomfortable with, she is to tell me "I cant talk right now." And I am to stop immediately.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It doesn't sound like you are implementing your part of the plan.

Have you ever noticed how the Bible directs women to submit to their husbands, but does not direct husbands to make them submit? What is it we say here over and over...? (You can only control yourself)

<small>[ November 09, 2003, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

MM:

I had to go back and take a second look to make sure this was really YOUR thread. I haven't had time to read it carefully but had to throw in these comments.

Remember what you told me about letting my FWH go through the pain? Sounds like to me that your W is starting to be honest with you, opening up and sharing her pain. Steve H. indicated to me that this is an important step during RECOVERY. She may be doing some of what he told her to do. Don't you think she might be trying to escape the pain by running away to separation? Don't let her.

Didn't you guys also tell me TIME and PATIENCE? Try to hang in there some more MM! Maybe there are other options for getting your needs met right now.

I guess I do agree with some of the others unfortunately that there may be contact with the OM. My FWS contacted the OW during our recovery and he was extra sneaky about it-mostly phone conversations. MM she can call him when you're not around, at work even, without you knowing about it.

She also sounds like my FWH in wanting me to kick him out by being mean and angry. I wouldn'nt play that game with him, remember? Don't play into her game, MM. Hang in there with your marriage and focus in yourself! Remember the things you told me !!! Let her leave if she wants to but don't make it easy for her by agreeing to it.

It's weird. Just last night my H began sharing feelings with me. He seemed uncomfortable with it, like he was being too honest and open. He said, "You won't tell anybody will you?" I felt uncomfortable with it to. I think they have been used to sharing with the OP so we need to try to welcome the sharing with us.

This is just my 2 cents.

MM, follow your own advice.

Hi MM,

First let me say, I'm sorry you are so frustrated with the state of things. I understand how frustrating this is.

Second, honestly, I have to agree with those who comment about the person from the past who you talked to. Just her presence, could be clouding your judgement with regards to your M. Let me put it to you this way. You had hopes of recovery with your W. You probably thought by now, that the state of your M would be really good and it has not progressed at all, and here is this person, that is waiting in the wings so to speak, to see if your M succeeds or flops. It is real tempting to go to the willing participant than to stay and work even more on your M, when things so far have not been productive. However, I see productivity with the honesty your W just shown. Now is not the time for her to shut down.

You see MM, twice now, since I discovered my H's A, it would have been so easy for me to leave the M and see someone else. One man was probably more my fantasy than anything else, the other one, I know would start a R with me if I was willing and seperated or divorced. Knowing this, there have been times, where I found it effecting my willingness to work on my M.
some days the temptation to walk away and start new has been greater than my desire to make my M work. My kids is the reason why I resist.

Separation, would not be good for anyone involved. It would make it too easy for everyone to give up, and the kids could lose all trust in their mother. She abandoned them once already, what would a second time do to them. This is how they will probably see it, as abandonment and that she does not love them enough to stay. They are too young to understand adult complex thinking.

I agree that counseling is needed for everyone concerned. Call Cerri or the Harley's. Cerri is very practical and level headed.

Would your W be willing to talk to one of them?

Okay everyone...sorry to not get back to you. Been a very busy week on all fronts. On a side note, I just wanted to say that I have one month until I reach my minimum retirement date from the military!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

First, I want to answer each of the posts here, since so many good people took the time to help me. Sometimes it is kind of weird, that I am able to help others, but cant see the forest thru the trees in my own life. Anyway, here we go...

Hope4Future:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mortarman, I've thought and thought and thought about your situation and not been able to find a viable 'solution' for you. Something occurred to me today. Your wife is very much going through the same things I did during our ordeal. I've told you via email that what she's pulling now reeks of false recovery. Her latest sounds just like a conclusion I came to when I couldn't get past my pride and anger to just TRY to reconcile the marriage. I feel that's what your wifes problem is as well...not past issues, but the refusal to deal with the present.

There is one major difference between our situations, however. You. My husband never pushed and never fought. He gave up and withdrew...which wasn't particularly helpful...but we would have been done long before our reconciliation had he had your testosterone He didn't have the needs and demands of sexual intimacy, nor did he feel such a strong need for resolution. He's a very calm and steady person...and as painful as everything was...he still just didn't need to rush forth and have an end.

I can't help you with that, nor can I advise you about that. You are who you are, and if you honestly can't let this play out another 6 months to a year...then it may very well be done. She's not ready to be where you want her to be. It worked very well for me to be able to work through my pride while I was on my own. I do believe, however, it CAN be done without seperation. She's just trying to get away, right now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks again for the emails, and the support here. I know that you have a great insight into what is going on in my wife. Your comment on "present issues" is right on the money, as I will show in my update below. Again, I do have a very strong sex drive and need for affection. And it is that need that is maybe forcing me into some LBs. But all-in-all, I dont believe that it is that which is forcing her away. But see my update below, and you'll understand what I am saying.

A.M.Martin:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does your W know there is someone else on the horizon still?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do I talk to her about it? No. Does she believe that I could move on, especially in my current frame of mind and emotions? Absolutely. Really, the gal we are speaking of is not really in the picture. She has her own life, has finally gotten her divorce, and as far as I know, she is dating now and attending to her 1 year old daughter, as a single parent. So, what is there really to tell my wife? That it is possible that I could start things up with her, or someone else? First of all, that would sound like an ultimatum to her (a big LB) and second, like I said, there is nothing going on there right now. So, discussing this thought in the back of my mind would only fuel her ability to convince herself that this was over, that it would never work.

Starman:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey MM. I wanted to focus on this friend of yours a little. You sounded VERY sure that this didn't have anything to do with what you were feeling, but are you REALLY sure?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, and no. Yes in the fact that I am still fully committed to my wife, my fantasies and sex drive all surround my wife. There are no others in that. No...because my continued needs not being met have started to creep into my mind, and made me thing that I may not be able to do this much longer, that I do want a life. So, maybe it affects it a little, by now making me want our situation to get moving, or to end. But it hasnt lessened my commitment to my wife or my family.

If you remember from my posts in January while I was in Plan B, I had met this woman and we became friends. She was going thru the same thing I was. We talked a lot about our faith, parenting issues, and legal issues concerning our WSs. But, as she put it, I dropped her like a hot potato when my wife decided to come home. Why? Because I thought we had crossed a line? No. We made sure of that. But because I wanted to show my wife that I was fully committed to her and reconciliation...that there was nothing hypocritical about my efforts. That, as the Bible says, if something even seems wrong, then I shouldnt do it, even if it really wasnt wrong. But, there has never been a hesitation on trying to repair my marriage or commitment to my wife. I too have spoke with Steve Harley recently. He knows fully of the situation with my wife, and how I am feeling. He has asked me to hang in there and let him do his work. But, unfortunately, it has been 5 weeks since my wife has spoken to Steve and doesnt appear to want to anymore. So, I am still left deciding where my future is.

JL:
You are right as usual. Her way would actually be the better way, because it would allow her some breathign room to figure things out. In my update below, I talk about this last weekend. She was off work, but decided not to go with me and the kids to a baseball tournament my oldest was playing in. Anyway, we had the arguments last Thurs and Fri, and I basically told her I wanted her out ASAP. Well, Sat morning before we left, she came to me very soft spoken and brought up some things, basically backing things down. So, we left. She called me several times while we were gone, and when we got back, she told me that she missed being with me, missed being with the kids. So, do I think her moving out and leaving me and the kids would help her understand what she is missing again? Sure. Can I do it? Absolutely not...and neither can the kids. Unfortunately, this isnt two years ago, and my wife cannot be trusted with anything. Two years ago, I could have separated, and we backed things off (dating?...she even said that Monday.."Cant we just date?"). And worked on things.

But I have been betrayed. And then it was flaunted in front of me. And she tried to destroy me. Then she came back. And now, she says with her words and actions, that I am worth nothing to her. But see my update below for more of that. But the short and skinny is that I am not capable, as you eluded to, doing a separation. She goes out the door...we are finished!

On the counselor plan, you will see by the post below that we have instituted that. But do I trust that she will continue? No. Will she use it to try to find her way back? No. We had Steve Harley, and all she wanted to do was bring up why she cant, instead of seeking the right answers. Same thing happened in counseling yesterday. But again, read below my update. I fully do not trust her to make the effort, besides showing up, that it takes to move this forward. I really feel like in her current state of mind, that seeing a counselor or calling Steve is a waste of time...because she has no concept of the truth of what can be.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All of her plans have led to intense pain and suffering on your part, and NO REWARD OF ANY KIND for your efforts and suffering.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL...the best statement you made was this, in saying what I am feeling and why I am at my wits end here. No reward. No guilt or shame on her part for her abdication of her morals. Her family. Her faith. None. She still feels justified (see below).

Like you said, there are other ways to handle this. But as long as it is just me that is doing the work and believes in this, then I have just one course of action.

CSUE: We have been counseling with Steve. Then she stopped about 5 weeks ago, and wont go back. Again, no commitment on her part. I doubt she even knows the meaning of the word "commitment" anymore. I would love to continue with Steve, because he has a plan. But, she has to be willing to do it. As the old Star Wars saying goes...Do, or dont do...there is no try!. She neither does, nor even tries. Well, I cant say that fully, because just when I am ready to pull the plug, she does give me the look or attitude like "Wait a minute...maybe there is another way." I am not about threats, and do not ant to hold out divorce in order to pressure her. As a matter of fact, if I have to pressure her, then I dont want her. But see my update below for more insight.

Shugah: So true. But please understand, like I said in joint counseling yesterday, it isnt that I dont love her or wouldnt do anything for her. I have, and I would. It is that my love and efforts are falling on deaf ears and heart. Is it dead in her? I dont believe so. The Bible even says it isnt. But, SHE BELIEVES IT! And that is all that matters. So, it is at this point, where I have sustained maximum effort, and received nothing in return, that I have come to the edge here. As God-within-Kily can attest, sometimes the BS reaches that point and can go no further. And unfortunately, if I have indeed reached that point, then my wife will wake up to the truth one day...and I will be gone, with it too late for her to do anything about it. That is my biggest fear, especially since I know that what we have is still there. But see below what I am talkign about.

John: Thanks for the 2x4. I KNOW I need it. And I have been LBing lately. But, unfortunately, I am reaching the point where I dont care. My wife has expressed that I have changed, that I am attending to her needs. But she also says she doesnt feel "it," that she just cant give me what I need. I truly believe right now that there is no OM. I might be wrong, but I believe she is being honest. But, my love bank is now empty. Not that I dont love her, that I dont want this to work out. It is that I do not want to do one more thing for her, as long as she feels this way about me and our relationship. As JL said, I have shouldered this marriage for two years now. I am tired. And to have her come home, make no effort, and then say she doesnt feel it, burns me with rage. Well, maybe not rage...but definitely with extreme anger and disgust. Make no effort, and then expect to feel it? How stupid!

The present is the problem John. I am reacting now to her inattention and inability to do anything positive to help this move along. And she is stuck in the fact that she doesnt feel it, and that I am getting more upset by the day. So, it is the present. But the present keeps building no matter what I do. At best, if I stay the course, it just doesnt move. Because in order to move forward, it takes two. At worse, it is moving backward because I am refusing to hold this up anymore. It is on her shoulders now to make the next step. And her track record shows she is incapable of doing much right when it comes to marriage, relationships, or to me. Do I sound angry? Of course I am. I have given everything, and no results. I believe in the truth, and even with the OM gone, she still believes the lies of what she has done (she said yesterday that she feels justified for her "exit affair."). She believes in the lies of her supposed feelings towards me. I could combat the fog. But how can you combat someone with the inability to see the truth, or even want to see the truth?

You are right about the fear under the anger. And I have expressed these thoughts to her. Unfortunately, that doesnt mean much to her right now. As she said yesterday, the only guilt she has is for the kids if she leaves again, or guilt for how I will feel if she stays, since she cant (read...wont!) find what we have.

John, she has heard my heart. We have spent hours quietly talking. I have written letters and emails, telling her my feelings and fears. But she just doesnt see the truth. And my opinion is that she doesnt WANT to see the truth, because with the truth comes guilt, pain and hard work. Not things she really likes.

Believer: As I said above, it is weird for me too, because I seem to be able to handle others' issues better than my own. I do understand the SF/intimacy issue with women. But, after two years of very little in the SF department, and being the type of man I am, as Hope4Future pointed out, my ability to continue in this and receiving nothing is fast coming to an end. It was easier when she wasnt here, because I didnt have to see her, or be with her in bed, or have a nice evening, which would lead to intimacy...and then nothing! At least before, there was nothing here to tempt me. So, the conditions as they are cannot be "managed" much longer.

KeepMvn:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Solution....

LET HER GO!!! If you truly love her then why won't you let her go? If you have decided that you will divorce her if she goes, that is fine. That leaves her with the consequences of her decision..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, I can do this. And I told her that she no longer has the time to do nothing. That it is get with it, or let me get on with my life. I know, a Selfish Demand (LB). This is not the problem. The problem is that most of the time, we are doing well. As you will see in my update, she says she doesnt see the truth of us, but then later outlines many cases where she does, and where she misses me when I am gone.

So, she is welcome to go. If I thought it was dead, I would do it myself. but I know it isnt. the problem with her going is that, I am afraid that she will actually wake up in weeks, months...and if she does, it will in fact be too late. Too late because the moment she steps out the door, I will pursue the divorce and can have it by the first of the year...thanks to living in Virginia. Too late because I will not allow her to come back again, sending our kids into another situation of mom coming and going. They will never trust us. Too late because I WILL shut the door on my heart with her, and move forward...as soon as the divorce is final. And I will not look back.

Unfortunately, I do believe as others have said, that her leaving might actually wake her up fully. But, her leaving will also kill the last of my resolve to this relationship. So, a sort of Catch 22.

Coffeman: I do understand all of this. It is KNOWING what we have, hearing her even say that she knows what we have...and still she walks away. Because I KNOW she will wake up. When, I dont know. Unfortunately, her leaving is not something I can or will deal with.

Orchid: Maybe she is having the A in her mind. Or another, with some fantasy future she might think is possible. I still do not believe there is an actual A going on. I could easily find out, and maybe I will. But that isnt really important right now. Because if she is, she's gone! And the fact that an A would cause problems between us, even if I didnt know, still leads her to be gone shortly. So, it doesnt really matter now.

I will put her out there on her own. but, when I do, there is no way back. Not again. I know, some will admonish me that I know she will get the truth this way, but I still wouldnt let her come back. Believe me, if yo ureally knew me, you would know that she is lucky she got this chance. I am not built this way. So, another shot would be out of the question.

Redhat: All certainly possible. And I may find out, just for history's sake. but again, this isnt what is motivating me. Whether she is not fulfilling her marriage vows because she is in an A, or if she isnt doing this because she doesnt feel it, is immaterial at this point. Both mean that she is gone.

Asylyne: Long time since I have heard from you. I hope things are well with you. You ALWAYS wield the biggest 2x4, so let me have it!

You are right! I do not want to go out like this. My lack of having needs met for two years has no led me to start thinking of a new life, if that is possible. I want my marriage, I believe in it. But I can no longer carry it by myself. And so, yes...I have done as you said, and tried to free myself of these thoughts.

The information came from someone who knows my situation. I confided in him that my wife is still not there for me, and that I am thinking of divorce. He then mentioned that this gal had been talking about me lately, and wondered how I was. So, there is no interest in pursuing things.

But you are right...even the appearance of impropriety is wrong, and I have policed up my actions, and even my thoughts to focus on the resolution or dissolution of my marriage.

My prayer life is really all I have right now. It is what is sustaining me. I keep waiting for God to fully wake her up, because she does see us at times, as you will read below. But you are right Asylyne...the last thing I want is to dishonor myself, my Savior, nor my marriage. So, I will stay focused on that until my wife wakes up, or I have papers in hand.

Thanks again, Asylyne. As always, you keep me in line!

Sparkle: Exactly!! As you saw from what I wrote above, it is when I start moving toward divorce, that she shows any sign of discomfort. So, I have shut down. No needs are going to be met. No effort on my part at all. I am no longer fighting her addiction to the OM. I am fighting her blindness to what is the truth of us. That may be a disrespectful judgment, but when you know the grass is green, and the other says it is red...well, what can you say...the truth is the truth.

23down: Unfortunately, you know all too well where I am at. Your post was right on. The problem is, she does show some signs sometimes that she sees it. But, no effort to try to find out. And I am out of energy to do it myself anymore.

jdmac: You have expressed right where I am at now. She has had the time and patience of me to do this slowly, at her pace. But she chose to do nothing. Now, I do not have the ability to do anything but save the marriage, or her to leave. She will shoulder the responsibility of moving this forward now...or she will shoulder the responsibility of destroying what she WILL later find out is the truth. I have to disagree wit hyou though JDMAC...ALL marriages can be saved. But it takes two, plus God. And at the basis, it takes commitment to do the right thing, to both going the extra mile to do what it takes. Together, that is possible. When it is just me, well, then it is just me. But, ALL marriages are salvageable. That is God's will. But He does give us free choice in life. Unfortunately, my wife so far has chosen not to follow Him, nor believe in His promises or healing. That, in the end, will be between her and Him.

litchfield: Thanks. I do know that everyone here appreciates the help I have tried to give. Believe me, I appreciate everyone here...more than you know! I am not afraid of being alone. It is fear of moving on, KNOWING what we have and KNOWING that she will eventually get it. But, even knowing these things, there is just so much in me that can endure this. I really am sick of this whole mess. I know I could have prevented this by being the husband I should have for the last few years before this happened. And I wish I could turn back the clock. But I cannot. But what we had (the positives) are still there. And we have learned so much thru this. But, I cannot educate her. I really believe that this comes down to her relationship with Jesus. She has been decived about EVERYTHING over the last two years. Remember, Satan got to Adam by deceiving Eve first. And he has gotten to me the same way. As our old pastor said this past spring about her, I think it is going to take a lot more pain from God before she is going o listen to Him, before she will believe the truth again. Unfortunately, I really have run our of time and energy.

Just J: Much that you said here about anger is true. Especially for her, and she has admitted as much. My anger is really frustration. Frustration that this intelligent and loving woman, who used to follow Jesus, cannot see the truth with it hanging right in front of her. Now, that sounds like fog. But I dont believe it is a fog at all. I believe that it is a barrier she has erected to protect her. She has made a lot of damage here. To cross that barrier, to lower it, means she has to face up to that damage, to clean it up. And I wonder whether she has that in her to do that. she is a "runner." When life gets tough, she runs. Always has. I believe, no...I KNOW...that she knows the truth. But she hides behind that wall, away from the truth, so she doesnt have to deal with it. And then she can say she doesnt see it or feel it...and be telling the truth!

On your ascetain about Christianity and other religions, I have to disagree. Almost all religions have creeds, etc that are good. I do not doubt that. But I do not live by a creed. Unlike religions in the world, Christianity is not a religion. It is a relationship with a man...Jesus. I KNOW Him. I talk to Him, and He talks to me. That may sound weird to many, but this isnt the "invisible person" we talked to when we were kids. He does talk to me, in so many ways. Many times, right here on this board, through so many people here. So, the answer doesnt lie out in the world..it does lie with Jesus. My struggle, and my wife's struggle, ultimately comes down to that. I am trying to hold on. Christ allowed divorce due to the hardness of the betrayed spouse's heart. That the BS just couldnt take it anymore. But I know His will is for me to hold on, to salvage my marriage. But He will permit me to divorce. Unfortunately, I do feel my heart hardening towards my marriage. And I pray often that that would stop. I also pray for my wife, who also has had a personal relationship with Christ, but abandoned Him in favor of the OM. You see, I wasnt the only one abandoned here. She didnt reject me...she isnt rejecting me...she is rejecting Christ and the man that Christ brought into her life. She is rejecting His love, His counsel, and His promises. How long will He let this continue? I do not know. I just pray that He would come quickly and open her eyes. That He do WHATEVER it takes to wake her up.

There are people today that lie in hospital beds, paralyzed...and thank God for their paralysis. Because in their cases, it took that accident to wake them up and to meet Jesus one-on-one. And in context with eternity, what is 30 years paralyzed, if you can gain ever lasting life?

So, I do pray that the Lord does WHATEVER it takes to wake her up. I am scred for HER because I know that it is goingto take something big to get her attention. And the pain from that (just like the paralysis mentioned above) will last a lifetime. I wish there were an easier way, and I have tried to protect her from the consequences of her actions...but it appears that she is stubborn. And the Lord will have to do what He has to do, to recue her from herself.

Mimi: Ahhhh...time and patience. So true. But I feel empty. Unable to have much more patience, nor time. With effort on her part, even small effort, as well as commitment, then I have the patience of Job. And time doesnt matter. But to wake up 7 months after her return, when I have done exceptionally, and her tell me she feels worse about me then right before she sought the affair, leaves me with the feeling like I can expend not one more drop of effort on someone that does not appreciate it. So, I am struggling with what I should do, because I indeed do not want to sit still anymore.

SwH: All true. And I have rectified the other gal situation, even though there wasnt anything overt towards anyone contacting each other, orsending messages, or anything. Just as I spelled out above, wonderment on my part of what happened to her, and as this mutual friend said, she had the same feeling. She is pursuing her new life. It is doubtful, even if I divorce tomorrow, that we would end up seeing each other. She has someone in her life, as this friend said. And as Asylyne said, I have some healing to do. So, she really isnt the issue. I just raised the issue here because I dont want anyone thinking that I am fearful of not having someone. That isnt the case. My thoughts on the matter are that my fears are based on my wife blowing what we have...and that it is not dead...only for us to look each other in the eyes weeks or months later, with disappointment. Because we both knew!

Okay everyone, after that long mess I just wrote, the update...

Well, last week ended with me leaving for a baseball tourny Saturday. Friday night, I told her I was done with the current situation, that she could look for whomever for an attorney, and that the things we had discussed in regards to dividing things, the kids, etc.

On Sat morning, around 4am, I got up to pack the car, and my wife got up. She came to me, wanting to talk. She asked about selling one of the cars (it is getting in bad shape) that day, that we needed to "no matter what happens between us." Well, that led to a short discussion about us, and I reiterated that I dont want divorce, that i believe in us...but that I do not want to continue like this.

Well, she decided to stay in town and take care of things, and then come to where we were on Sunday to watch our son. But, she had car issues on Sat, and couldnt come up. She called me several times that day, and we talked briefly...again with me saying that I do want us!

We came home Sunday, with her pulling back again. Saying the things that set me off over the last two months. I pulled back from her, told her that I didnt want to talk, that I thought she had approached me Sat in order to save things...and that I was getting tired of this game. And then I stopped speaking to her. She needed a ride the next morning to take care of a drivers license issue, and came down to ask if I was going to take her. I told her absolutely not, that I was done with all of this, and that I wanted her to do what she had to to get the D moving. She then went off, called me some names, and told me I might as well take my ring off (she hasnt worn hers in two years). After I calmed down, I went up to our room, and told her that she was right...that I was still her husband, and would be such until she left me again. That I would take her, that nothing had changed...that my decision and belief in our marriage still was true. But that her time was up with sitting on the bench.

Monday morning, we went to DMV...and actually had a good morning together. She talked about this lawyer that would help us in mediation and putting the paperwork together if we went that way. But she didnt bring it up to discuss divorce. She brought it up because she said that she could see us going in there, and how we acted with each other (loving, attentive to each other, etc) and that the lawyers would be asking "Why are you two here?" Guys and gals...it is statements like this from her that tells me that she KNOWS the truth...that she just hides from it most of the time. I told her that it was true, that this is what I have been trying to make her see. That we are great together. That things are getting worse because we cannto continue to have a great friendship (which has been improving), and still trash all of the rest. That her inability to do anything for me, or protect me, is causing this.

Anyway, a good day overall. Next day, we were to do somethign together (both of us were off work), or to go see a movie with the kids. Well ,she wakes up that morning with a huge headache, stomachache, etc. We talk for awhile, and she realizes this is a stress headache. That she is getting high anxiety with me around. That when we are apart, she wishes she was with me. But when we are together, she is anxious, and actually gets sick from it. How do I protect her from this? Well, I tried, by just being there for her. I didnt talk. Just got her things when she needed them (she was in bed most of the day). I took the kids out so she could sleep. I took care of dinner. She later thanked me for standing by her during all of this. She also asked if I could set up an immediate appointment with a counselor we were seeing during our reconciliation back in the spring.

So, I set it up for Thursday. Wed, she worked. I got up at 4am and helped her get out the door. Again, we together shows that we do have it. We were great that morning. She calls from work that afternoon, and asks for Chinese food. It is waiting for her, and she is clearly appreciative. But very tired, and goes to work early.

She wakes up Thurs in one of her weird moods again. So, instead of letting her get the kids off (I do it most days...this was her day off), I stuck around and got it done, and then left her to relax alone at home. I left work early in the afternoon to meet her at the counselor's place. We went inside, and began to update her on everything from the last 7 months we hadnt seen her.

And my wife said the following. That if I asked her to leave today, that she wouldnt cry over it. That the only guilt she has over any of the last two years is now, i nthat if she leaves, what will it do to the kids...and, if she stays, that she cant give me what I want...a real wife.She talked about her anxiety around me. But then admitted that she isnt anxious all of the time. that we do have fun, and do hang out well together. She admitted that many things have improved. She also admitted that she believes that she does not have it in her to love me, nor meet my needs...especially SF and affection.

We spent most of the session just updating the counselor, and the counselor asking questions. Then the counselor set up another appointment for next week.

But the session left me worse off. Her talking in the negative, showing no hope nor commitment, just left me bankrupt. The counselor cannot help someone that doesnt want to be helped. And she doesnt right now. She did the same with Steve Harley.

So, I kind of blew up when we came home, later that evening. I told her again that I am feeling that she is just wasting everyones' time...that she is not serious about this. That we will go for weeks and months to the counselor, and she will say how she cant do this or that (as she has done with Steve Harley for weeks), and that I will still be right where I am at.

And I again reiterated that if she cannot acknowledge the truth of her feelings toward me, and she cant make the commitment...that if she feels even after everything, that she could leave righ now without even crying...then I want her to call the attorney and set up the appointment immediately. That I want the D to fly through the courts.

I told her, as I am telling all of you, that the reason I am so hurt and angry is that she is blowing a great thing. We have shown it. She has seen us together. She admitted it, with ehr story about what the lawyers will think about us. But, with no commitment, no effort, and no needs being met, all of this is academic.

I am now at the point that some stated above...she needs to poop, or get off the pot.

So, that is the long, long update. I do appreciate everyone helping me. You all are in my hear, and my prayers.

In His arms.

I've been wondering and worrying about what was going on!

Her statements are just as foggy as ever. She admits she misses you, but then turns around and says she can't ever love you. She's wrong. But I can't judge...I did and said the same things.

It's an emotional stand still....and you just feel so stuck. For me it took having the space away from the stress of figuring it out...it took the pressure of the decision to be off (we decided we would divorce, the decision was made) before I realized that I'd made the wrong one.

She's going to have some major issues to deal with regardless of whether or not you're in the picture. But it's going to get increasingly harder and harder for her to deal with those issues as the pressure of 'poop or get off the pot' builds. My guess is she'll choose to run. She'll regret it, but it's likely what she'll do.

Take care of yourself MM...your road ahead isn't nearly as dark as hers is.

H4F,

Unfortunately, I believe you are right. Which further drains my resolve.

In His arms.

MM,

I think the problem is YOU. I am sorry to sound so harsh but the real sticking point is you. You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, she is welcome to go. If I thought it was dead, I would do it myself. but I know it isnt. the problem with her going is that, I am afraid that she will actually wake up in weeks, months...and if she does, it will in fact be too late. Too late because the moment she steps out the door, I will pursue the divorce and can have it by the first of the year...thanks to living in Virginia. Too late because I will not allow her to come back again, sending our kids into another situation of mom coming and going. They will never trust us. Too late because I WILL shut the door on my heart with her, and move forward...as soon as the divorce is final. And I will not look back.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now if I quoted this and told you she told me this would you believe me? You should. You are sounding just like her. You don't get it yet.

You need to let her go, but when you do YOU need to have the strength of your religion and PERMIT the POSSIBLITY that God will indeed work on her and if he does you won't be foolish enough to turn her and his work away.

You are right she will need to do many things she seems unwilling to do, but if you two separate and God works through her, she will come back ready and willing to make it work. You will know IF you give the possibility of this happening a chance.

MM, don't harden your heart. Let her go, but do it in love and with the knowledge that it is POSSIBLE for her to come back IF it is something she wants and will make an effort toward. You don't have to guarentee anything, and if life leads you to a new relationship then it is too late. But, MM do better than she has, show the strength of your faith, and don't harden your heart, for you are hardening it to HIS plan.

What you may not realize is that all of this may be for YOU, not your W. She may be the instrument for you. I have no way of knowing but I do know you don't either.

Hope4 has been there, done that and because her H left his heart open, she came back. I would bet that she came back as a much better person and W, and she is happy for her decisions and so is her H.

MM, allow that chance in your life even as you move along it. Do NOT slam that door if she moves out. Yes, proceed with the D if that is your wish, but Harley strongly suggests that even a D should be POJA'd. However, don't make a decision or draw a line in the sand when none is required. Soon enough you will know the right thing to do and it won't require that you have hardened your heart or locked your heart to your W. Life may well offer you better options and you simply take them without anger or fear.

MM, please think about this. Life is tough enough without having a hard heart. I will quote you something my father told me years ago and it applies to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Friends come and go, but enemies accumulate. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't make an enemy out of her.

God Bless,

JL