CAUTION!!! VERY LARGE 2X4 COMING AT YA!!!!!

MM,
I love ya, bro. I think you are one of the strongest, most logical, committed, intelligent christian men on these boards.........buuuuuuuuut............
I gotta say these few things:

Sit down and listen up............
THERE'S WAY TOO MUCH "WHAT ABOUT ME, WHAT ABOUT ME?!?!?!" whining going on in your posts. Please allow me to write these things to you. After this, I'll sit back down, and watch and listen without so much as a peep! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But I gotta get this stuff off my chest:


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

But I overcame all of that, due to my Lord, and my love for my wife and kids. But unfortunately, my heart is hardening. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow. Glory be to MM!!! What a great guy, what a great CHRISTIAN MAN!!! GOD SURE IS "LUCKY" TO HAVE YOU AROUND!!! Sounds pretty prideful to me. God better "watch out" cause once MM's heart is hardened, welllll, then!!!!!! That's the end of it!!!!!!!! SORRRRRRRRRRRRRRY, GOD!!! Can't do it YOUR way now!!! You took too long............my heart is hard now...........you missed your shot at saving THIS marriage!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> my worst enemy could not have done to me what she has done, and what she is about to do. If my worst enemy would do this, dont you think I should protect myself? Of course. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NOT if you are a follower of Christ........who said to "Love your enemies. Do good to those who persecute you........." NOT if you are a christian who wants to "Love your wife as Christ loved the church AND GAVE HIS LIFE FOR IT." No, no. Don't you DARE tell me you have!!!!! I'm talking REAL BLOOD here, brother. REAL DEATH. REAL PAIN.
Die to self, MM. TRULY die to self. EVEN TO A DEATH ON A CROSS.
If you were truly dying to self, NO, YOU WOULD NOT "protect yourself."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> All of this may be about me. God may be using this to help me grow. I have already grown. But, I am not being fed...not in awhile. I am hungry and tired. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Awwwwwwwwww, poor baby!!! You are not being fed??? AWwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.........I guess God must be busy somewhere else...........He must not have REALIZED this!!! I'm SURE He would agree you should walk away then!!!!!!! I'm SURE He would agree you have grown enough. I'm SURE He likes YOU making this decision for Him!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I told you about God telling me in Bosnia. He told me to 1. forget about my wife, 2. get back to my first love (Him), and 3. die for my wife. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry, brother. I'm still weilding the 2x4!!! I just don't see you DYING FOR YOUR WIFE. I see you "wounded." I see you hurt. Yes, I do. BUT DYING????????? You're a long way from dead yet.
HOW close are you to God at this precise time?? Have you done what He asked you to do? HOW CLOSE ARE YOU TO HIM??? HOW MUCH DO YOU LOVE HIM?????? This IS a test...........I want to see you pass it with flying colors.

MM, what if He asked you to "stand" and wait for your W for something like 10 years?? Wouldn't He have a reason?? Would you do it?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I feel like I have died for her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is a reason in my life, that once I dated someone and we broke up, that we NEVER got back together again...not even once. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like "Glory be to me" again. See how I'm made??? God couldn't POSSIBLY want to work THAT attitude out of me!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> should she no longer be my wife, then I will owe her nothing...and be obligated to nothing. She will be nobody in my life, save for being the mother of my children. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">THAT should go over big with your children in the future!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">While I love her immensely, and probably always will, I have not gone thru all of this for her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, MM, as I have tried (so eloquently) to point out, YOU SHOULD HAVE!!! That is your primary role as husband.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She hasnt, and doesnt deserve what I have done! I have done this for me, for God...and to a lesser extent, for my kids. I have done this for me because I made a commitment to myself, to God, to my wife, to my future kids...to love, honor and cherish...for better or worse. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't buy this. Not one word of it. If you made a committment to God, you wouldn't be here WHINING to us that you can't do it anymore!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">without that commitment, no matter how much I love her...she has no chance with me! She neither deserves it, nor am I capable of giving it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That committment is skating on pretty thin ice right now, isn't it? Is that HER fault?? Not YOUR end of it, no. That's up to YOU.
YOU ARE THE ONE WHO ENTERED INTO THIS 3-WAY COVENANT. GOD EXPECTS YOU TO HONOR YOUR END OF IT. TILL DEATH.............

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I no longer have the ability to wait.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's about the most honest thing I've read.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know, at least with me, that certain decisions in life cause us to take the narrow road. That we cant take it back. And once the ink dries on divorce papers, that is that. Up until that point, all things are possible with my wife and I. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! Here's the crux of the matter. The narrow road. I recently heard a radio preacher talking about how the "narrow road" is narrow b/c it means you must endure PRESSURE to get through it, you are pressed in from all sides. THAT's what God calls us to endure.

MM, listen (if you're still reading!), the bottom line here is this: we have pretty much established that God's Hand is still working in all this. I think you are aware that HE has a plan.

Do you know what it is? If not, or if you're confused at this point about how to hang in during all this, I have an idea.....(not that you are wanting to hear anymore from ME!!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I think fasting, maybe a 3-day fast, and praying is in order. Try it!!! Ask God to meet you there. REALLY get alone with Him, and seek His face. You are drained. That's obvious. That's a given. It's understandable. BUT, God KNEW this would happen.

What is He trying to teach you now? What is He trying to get you to do, to see, to learn?

The sooner you learn it, the SOONER the "cloud" moves, and you start making progress again!

I love you, brother, I really do!! I want to see you make it. I DO!! Please search your heart. And seek God more.

God Bless you and your W.

JL I agree with everything you said except for the following:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Coffeeman, yours closed when you met someone who filled your life and you wanted and did marry."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mine closed even before I divorced her when my love bank went bankrupt and I decided that it was time for me and the girls to move on without her. Not only did I lose all love for her but also all hope as well. JL I have to be honest and say that even if I had not met my present W, I would not have had any desire for letting my XW into my heart once more. Even if the good Lord decided that it was time to call my DW to heaven, I would not have any desire to reconcile with my XW and you can take that to the bank <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

<small>[ November 17, 2003, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

lupolady:

Wow! that's got 2 be the biggest 2x4 I think I've ever seen! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> MM lives on the east coast, and I'm on the left coast, and I SAW that 2x4 arcing through the air from HERE! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

MM: Try this (if you won't try my other experiment):

♣Take responsibility for everything you feel. That's pretty easy, isn't it.

♣Now, another thing: You feel the things you feel based on your reaction 2 what you percieve is happening around you, right? That's not as easy, but if you think about it, it's true, isn't it?

♣AND, if you keep thinking about it, you'll realize that your feelings that you feel based on your perception of things happening around you is colored by assumptions you make about what went in2 the mind of the person you're interacting with at the time.

♠Like I said before, it's "safest", more "protecting" if you simply assume that your assumptions are wrong. Don't assume (we've all hear about what assuming makes out of u and me, right?). I'd even like 2 go so far as 2 say you have no RIGHT 2 make assumptions, but the simple fact is that you have every right. It's just not going 2 get you what you think you want if you do, is it?

♣You and your W are in recovery right now. It pulls a good vacuum, doesn't it? My W and I started a few months ago ourselves, and I think it does, big time. It's HARD. But it would be a whole lot harder if we weren't able 2 communicate daily (even sometimes many times daily when we're apart at work or something). We don't always have "quality" communication when we're 2gether, but we do have communication. Gawd, I'm grateful for that. My W has even said a few things that I 2k as hurtful. Now, if I were 2 tell the board what she said and how I reacted, some might shout "plan B!" or something, but instead I thought about what she said, when she said it, and how we were both feeling at the time based on things we perceived as going on around us, based on our assumptions... ...hopefully you see what I mean here.

♥In any case, I later realized she didn't quite mean what I thought she said. Looking forward 2 the fu2re, I can see many bumps in the road ahead, most of my own construction. But even those I didn't put there subconsciously I'm willing 2 take responsibility for, if it will help me 2 think about my assumption process before I react s2pidly on it.

♠Looking back on your threads over the past year or so, I can see many moments where you were ready 2 just quit, or she was ready 2 quit. Each time you or she came back. This is a process. Sometimes it's a painfully slow one. But I don't think you'll ever be done with the process. After all, you'll always be a family whether you're an intact one or not.

♥Since you have 2 go through your problems anyway, why not try 2 steer the process in positive ways? I think you have more "energy" for this than you give yourself credit for. Lighten up on the assumptions and drama. She may come around.

♣And by all means, don't "withold" conversation if she wants it. Conversation, GOOD conversation, is the key.

-ol' 2long

Mortarman. I've just skipped hundreds of lines of postings to say this one thing.

God told you to DIE for your wife.

So why haven't you done it yet? You are trying so damned hard to be the perfect leader and husband. Those parts of you need to die. You need to break, Mortarman. YOU need to change so drastically that you don't even recognize yourself.

Dang it Mortarman, all of this came to me so fast that I can't even type it as fast as it's coming out and I have a feeling the Divine is using me as a voice here and I'm not even sure I believe in it yet so you damned well better listen 'cause I am NOT being a voice of God for nothing here, all right?????

So stop fighting this!! You are the grain of wheat that must die for a whole new stalk to be born. You keep fighting it and you're going to rot in the ground. You ARE rotting with hate and anger and fear and hurt.

You have to stop it.

Find the sun.
Find warm rain.
Find cool, dark earth.
Find peace.
Find peace in your soul, mortarman.
Grow peace in the good earth, in bright sun, in warm rain. Grow it in your soul.

You are a man of war. It is time for you to die to war. It is time for you to become a man of peace.

Find peace, mortarman. Find it.

Hi MM,

Sadly again I find myself noticing issues easily on other threads, but not on mine...
Anyway, I hate to agree with other psters, but I strongly feel there is contact with OP.
I know I always loook for another scintilla of trust, and hope to be able to go on, but I think I am in the same boat as you are.

We want the recovery so badly, invested so much of our pain and hope, put so much trust and forgivenes that we choose to remain blind to the reality.
Sorry MM.
We still have the power to choose what we will do.
I wish You peace, and to myself as well,
FBOW

Mortarman, how are you doing?

Everyone...I really dont know what to say. There has been a whole host of posts since I last posted. And I have read everyone of them.

Most of what has been written is right on the money. Lupolady...that was the biggest 2x4 I have ever seen wielded on MB! And rightly deserved.

I have taken two weeks to just go silent. I am seriously thinking about that fasting deal mentioned above. Over thistime, a lot has happened. And I am not sure what to do with it. I wont go into a blow-by-blow, but let you know this...where we are at right now is NOT because of my wife. It is because, as JL put it...I have been losing hope. And, I have felt my lovebank drain out the last dime for my wife.

To sit here and think of divorce, and feel nothing but relief, has scared me. Because ultimately, I want to do God's will. But, a lot of things have been shown to me over the last three days.

We have been going to counseling together over the last three weeks. This past Monday, in the middle of things, my wife hit me as hard (not physically) as I have ever been hit emotionally. I do not think that anything that the OM and her did could hurt me as much as she did. But in what she said, it appears that I may have not gotten exactly what she meant. But first let me tell you what she said.

She told me and the counselor that SF for her was uncomfortable (not physically) and that she felt that I had been in it for myself. WOW! Considering she showed and told me differently for the 8 1/2 years before the A, I was floored. Either she lied then, or she is still fog bound now. Because my wife, pre-A, had reiterated over and over how good our sex life was, and that it was the basis of our relationship (as well as family, faith and friendship). Her #2 need is SF, it is my #1.

Anyway, I was stunned...hurt. I didnt say much else during the session, and pretty much closed down on the way home. Then, before we got home, I told her that I do indeed want a divorce. That if that is how she now felt about that part of her life (when she showed and told me differently), then this cant possibly work. And I just wanted out.

Well, she didnt have anything to say except that I am misperceiving what she said, but that she doesnt have it in her to fight.

I barely talked to her the rest of Monday and Tuesday. I contacted the lawyer and began making preparations for after Thanksgiving.

Aahhh...Thanksgiving. My wife, for the first time in our marriage, had decided to cook the meal (she wanted to do it, she decided last weekend). Then she met up with a good family friend of ours last weekend and they decided to cook together and make it one big deal. Well, after what happened Monday, I was not going over there and spoiling the holiday...and told my wife that she was still welcome to go with the kids. She said she would.

Anyway, yesterday came around and my wife called me at work. I was supposed to go to the grocery store after work...but she was asking to go with me. Of course, I just asked "What do you need?" she said that she just wantedto go. And I asked why? Her comment was very telling. She said "Why are you making this so difficult?" What I now know she meant was that she was trying to reach out to me. Anyway, I said okay.

Last night, we stopped by these friends house to drop off all the food for today. And stayed and had pizza. My wife and our woman friend stayed in the kitchen talking...and drinking a lot of wine! And me and the husband friend watched TV. Every so often, my wife would call me in, asking met o do something, or joking with me. Of course, I was still not in a very jovial mood.

Anyway, my wife had to leave early to stop by a friend's house totake care of their cat (they are out of town) and she would meet the kids and I at home. I knew she would be gone for about 2 hours, so I stayed awhile longer.

The female friend asked me to come talk to her. She said that my wife had told her thatI was pursuing the divorce. I told her that was true. She said my wife hadsaid what had happened Monday...that I had misperceived what she was saying. She was saying that right before the affair, the few years before, our sex life had changed. That things werent what they were before. She said she "felt" like things werent right there.

Our friend tells me that what I was dealing with Monday was woman feelings. That it didnt have to be based in facts. That I had blown it...because what my wife was looking for was me to acknowledge her feelings. To ask why she felt that way. Instead, I took it personally.

Our friend wenton to say that she asked mywife if she also wanted the divorce. My wife said no, but that she would let me do it if it was what I wanted.

She went on to say that she told my wife that she was surprised, that it looked like we were doing so well. My wife said she thought so to. That my taking her house hunting two weeks ago, had energized her into moving forward with me, to start seeing a future with me again.

Our friend asked her if she had told me all of these things. She said no, that she was scared of getting hurt, of letting me know her feelings, and then things going back to the way they were right before the A. Our friend told her that how was MM expected to know how she felt, and to adequately meet her needs and make her feel safe, if he didnt know how she was feeling. She then told my wife that if she wanted this marriage, she was going to have to open up, to meet MM halfway.

Our friend then told me some of the things that I need to work on that scare her, or that I have worked on but she still doesnt see. But she said the biggest thing was I am going to have to listen. To allow her to express her feelings, even if I dont like them.

Okay, anyway...you get the picture. So where is MM today? Well, I am about to head over to our friends house with my wife and kids for Thansgiving. My wife and our friend will be cooking all day.

But emotionally, I dont know. I hear what my wife is saying,and I hear that she doesnt want to lose me. But, her actions still dont match her feelings. She is still doing nothing to meet my needs.

Now, before Lupolady and JustJ start wielding the World's Largest 2x4 again, let me say something.

I know! I know that I have been required by God to die for my wife...and I have found that I still havent done so. I have hurt, I have bled...but I aint dead. I know that this whole marriage, after what I heard last night, hinges on me...not my wife. That she is excited about a future now. That she doesnt want to lose me. That do to past pain, she is scared...and not communicating with me.

But ultimately this is my responsibility. I was called by God to lead...and to die, if need be. Not my wife. so, somewhere in me, I have to find the will now to push this thing thru.

If you asked me two days ago if it was over, I'd say yes. But after hearing last night what my wife really feels, then I know that theproblem has really not been with her (except in the fact that she has not communicated with me)...but with me.

I still am unsure, even after all of this. Not unsure of the marriage, or whether my wife wants in. I now know that she has kept from me the truth...that she does want us. But I am unsure because I really am bankrupt in my love bank. I have stayed up all night, trying to see if I have the energy to push forward, and I cannot find it.

But, what I read this morning from your latest posts has made me believe that the Holy Spirit is using you to get to me. That maybe...with a Mortarman now bankrupt and unable to do anything on his own for my marriage...maybe now, I have sufficiently gotten out of His way...so that He can show His power and love.

Maybe, by what I have read from all of you, He is trying to make surethat I know that dying for my wife means that only He can bring it backto life. That all my Plan A's and Plan B's, etc...without Him at the helm, really mean nothing. That dying for my wife brings Him glory, because then...when His will is done, then no one involved, or even outside of this marriage, will be able to deny who actually made this happen.

Maybe it is that I must decrease so He can increase. Maybe if things had gone back together earlier, it would have made it look like "Saint Mortarman" was the hero, was responsible for the recovery.

I have a lot to think and pray about this weekend. But I do know that all of you are being used by God to get thru to me. (JustJ...it is an amazing thing when you know God is using you, isnt it?)

Thanks for your willingness to listen to Him. What you have done here means more to me than you know.

In His arms.

Mortarman, my bro in MB as well as in Christ.

Read Malachi 3:16 "I hate divorce". You are not done yet and you should not filed.

Tell her that you don't have energy to carry on and you need her to help you out otherwise one of you would take the Dv road. If she asks you what she needs to do ... tell her how she could fillin your LB$. Tell her exactly how you feel w/ no LB, let her reach to you back.

God blesse you -rh-

Why don't you surprise her and the kids and go to that combined Thansksgiving family dinner?

That would sure be nice of you and show you are a very caring & comprimizing fellow.
Sincerely, Sarah

Maybe it's time to close this love bank account and open another love bank account for your W. Why? Because the old marriage is dead, you and your W are different people than you were pre-A. To expect SF from this 'different' woman without first connecting emotionally with her is to court disaster. Yes technically she is your W and it is her wifely duty to show you love through SF, BUT do you really want it if her heart is not in it? Women are more perceptive than us men, and they can tell when a man wants nothing but sex from them. Most women who enjoy sex do so because they are emotionally connected to the men they are with. While the following is stupidly obvious and we men pay lip service to it, it seldom sinks in and so it must said repeatedly: WOMEN ARE NOT MEN WITH VAGINAS. The more a woman perceives pressure for sex from her man, the less she is going to want it. A man's resentment is and never will be an aphrodisiac to any woman. If you want to fulfill your role as lover, then you have to demonstrate to her that your love for her is NOT dependent on her giving you sex. The greatest lovers in history have always conveyed that message to their women.

<small>[ December 02, 2003, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Men are so weird about sex. Anything you say about it makes them SOOOOO sensitive. (Can't remember...was your W the one that referred to marriage as licensed prostitution, and you got all bent out of shape about the cliche? Maybe someone else.)

My advice: try not to rock with every earth tremor. You have many ahead. The overall temperature seems to be getting warmer -- as someone (you?) told me long ago, don't go by the day-to-day temperature, look at overall trends.

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!

I have been reading your posts and have come to the conclusion that you are correct in filing for divorce. You have tried to forgive her for having the affair and rebuilding the marriage but she has not forgiven you for things you may have done in your marriage before the affair. Instead of trying to create a new marriage she is still trying to justify her affair. She states that she does not want to have a divorce but wants to have a legal separation. IMO this attitude to run away shows a lack of commitment to rebuilding a marriage. This is the same thinking that she exhibited during her affair when she was having an affair. She didn't want a divorce but still wanted to continue her affair. Only when she saw that you were serious did she break off the affair and come back to you. MM you cannot rebuild a marriage by yourself. The fact is that your wife's past and present actions show that she is not interested in being married to you.
If she was she would be telling you right now that she does not want to separate but will be doing everything to help build a happy marriage. By saying that she will go along with your decision to file for divorce shows even moreso that she is not interested in staying married by not wanting fight for the marriage.

MM,

I have no idea how i found this thread. Just wandering around the boards and I clicked on this one. I never even come to GQII. I stay in the Recovery board. So know this isn't an accident!

I'll first tell you that I am a female BS in your shoes. I read through most of the whole thread and boy, could I hear myself in your words. We have been going thru recovery now for almost 2 years but true recovery only about 7 months as we had a false recovery.

I am a deeply committed Christian and desire nothing but for God to be glorified through all of this mess we have found ourselves in.

About a month ago God had to use his big 2x4 on me through one of my friends and it sounded very much like Lupolady's post to you. I was very, very much in your shoes. "I am right, I am right, I have done everything, he has done nothing, I'm finished and ready to move on. I am not waiting for however long it takes until he decides to get it right."

YOu see, God had tried to gently tell me to stop having certain expectations about our recovery, how my FWH should be acting, what he should be doing. The first time it was a gentle statement from a godly friend. The 2nd time was a little more emphatic with a statement from our pastor that went something like, "You know, he's not going to do it exactly like you think he needs to." My eyebrow raised a bit but I didn't really take it to heart. Then a couple of weeks after that my dearest friend let me have it, so to speak. I heard it loud and clear and I was humbled beyond belief.

My pride was so in the way and God is going to do what he has to do to remove it.

So when reading through this I see that God is really trying to work on you as well. You have to let go of your expectations of your wife. If she is a committed christian God will deal with her and he will restore your marriage if you move yourself out of the way.

Your last post sounded much like me after my friend "talked" to me. I began to see things a little differently. Then I read the following in the book "Forgive and Forget" by L.B. Smedes (changed slightly to reflect my sitch):

One day, Beauty's husband admitted that he had feelings for another woman and had for some time. What? For some time? After all that she had done for him. What about all the years she had slept with him, nursed him, protected him, kept track of his schedules, got him to work on time, made him look good and smell good, and, in general, made straight the highway for him and his trollop to get together?

Beauty's very virtue was her undoing. She trusted; he betrayed. She gave; he stole. She was true; he was a liar. She was faithful; he was faithless. Her only fault was the blindness of her pure love. Virtue had made a sucker of her.

Certain that any fool of a person would see the rightness of her case, Beauty pleaded her case to many friends. But FWH got himself a wise counselor, and he along with Beauty's friends pulled her naked across the barbed wire of inquisition and twisted her words into a testimony against herself at the appropriate times. She began to look like the sharp toothed culprit and he the guileless victim.

But the worse the friends and counselor made her look, the purer Beauty felt.

She spent the better part of the next 2 years scourging her soul with replays of FWH's assault on her innocent devotion. She was insecure enough in her righteousness to risk some counseling with a view to getting psychological support for her malice. But her hate was undermined instead. As she found new insight into herself the bitter pleasure of her hate lost its edge. The long and short of it was that Beauty began to see herself as a tarnished angel.

FWH did not deceive her; she deceived herself. She had really known all the while; but she did not dare to admit that to herself. The truth hurt too much, so she denied the plainest evidence. She wore the blinders of her own fear, more coward than fool. Her first eye-opener - insight into her dishonesty with her own self.

She also came to see that she had not been the self-giving lover she thought she had been. She really wanted security more than she wanted her husband, and she counted on his commitment to give it to her. She bet everything on his morality. He was the sort of character who would stick with what he was stuck with. All she needed to do was remind him to be a good boy and she had him where she wanted him.

When she could see herself as she was - some good, some not so good - she made an opening for forgiveness to squeeze through.

Self-understanding reduced the act of forgiving to a minor miracle that even she could manage. She discovered herself loving her husband with magic eyes, and she felt free to be a more honest person.

I don't like it, but it's the truth and it keeps my pride at bay, most days <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

No, my FWH doesn't meet all my needs as of yet but I know he will if I truly let God lead instead of doing it myself. There are still many days when I can feel cold icy fingers gripping my heart to harden it. I fight against it and realize that it's the evil one trying to do what he ultimately set out to do - destroy.

The Lord is my portion - for those who wait on Him. Lamentations 3:24 If you wait on Him, he will give you exactly what you need - not too much, not too little - a perfect portion.

I know this has been lengthy and I have no idea if this will strike any cords with you but it did for me and I appreciate the opportunity to share what has happened in my situation.

I"m praying for you both!

Sorry, just gotta say one more thing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Actually, I could say about a hundred more but I'll stop here, promise!

When I let go of my pride and expectations, I'm able to see that my FWH is doing some things right, not all, but many. And you know, I know I'm not doing everything right either. We both have to be patient even if it takes forever.

My H has the same reservations that your W has about opening up to you. It's very hard for him to communicate with me b/c in the past I have been very overboard and critical w/ my communication.

It really does sound like your wife wants to open up to you but you have to be able to receive what she is saying

O.K., the end - I'm stopping <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Then, before we got home, I told her that I do indeed want a divorce. That if that is how she now felt about that part of her life (when she showed and told me differently), then this cant possibly work. And I just wanted out.

Excellent reply to her !!!!

Now observe her reaction...

Well, she didnt have anything to say except that I am misperceiving what she said, but that she doesnt have it in her to fight.

This is where you should have replied..." I know I probably misperceived what you said, but I just don't have it in me to fight anymore either, it just doesn't seem to be working."

Also, observe what happened next, as she was truly sensing that you have had enough of this merry go round and you want off.

Anyway, yesterday came around and my wife called me at work. I was supposed to go to the grocery store after work...but she was asking to go with me.

Think that had anything to do with your comments and sudden change of direction of telling her that it wasn't working? Or, just coincidence that each time you have let go, she has picked up the ball....??????

Here is a quote from you that gives me an insight to how effective you comments about giving up moved her thoughts to a changed position. All because she "perceived that you let go"...

She went on to say that she told my wife that she was surprised, that it looked like we were doing so well. My wife said she thought so to. That my taking her house hunting two weeks ago, had energized her into moving forward with me, to start seeing a future with me again.

You see Mortarman, she was telling her friend that she was WORRIED. The reason she was worried was because she KNOWS she has not really shown you that she really wants to be in this. She is lying to her friend by omitting her role in you wanting out...

If I were you, I would stay on the theme of.... "I know we have tried, but it doesn't seem to be working does it honey?".. We seem to be going backward... etc. etc.......

Let her SELL you on why this marriage can work....

Mortarman - I deeply sympathize with all of your struggles. I think you have given it your very best. However it kind of seems like you are fighting a war - thinking about attacks and retreat, preparing your battle plan, trying to out-think the enemy, watching for snipers, on a constant state of alert. As the leader of your family you need to stop, put up the white flag, and turn the battle over to the Lord. Admit you are powerless over this (Step 1 of 12 Step program I think) and ask the Lord to take over for you. Each day when you go back into your war fighter mode, turn it over to the Lord, over and over again. You have not been wrong, you have given it your best. It is time for you to turn it over to the Supreme Commander. Good luck and by the way, thankyou for answering your country's call. We Americans are forever greatful for you fighting men.

MM,

There is so much I want to say to you and to your W. I am almost ready to schedule a trip to your place to talk some sense into both of you.

First, I think I would get your W's friend, your W, and you in the same room. Next, I would explain that your mindreading skills are NOT very good. I would ask each woman how you were to validate your W's feelings if they are not clear. Further, I would point out that you did VALIDATE her feelings. You accepted her statement at its face value. She did not, does not, and probably will not want you in her bed. That is pretty much what she said in your mind wasn't it?

Next, she may ask why you didn't ask her to clarify. The answer is obvious, she was very clear in what she said, and you are too drained to fight with her ( you didn't know if she wanted to argue or what), and you want her to be happy. She has not made an indication that she could or would be happy with you. She needs to start to help you. If she has feelings she needs to express them, NOT just the negative ones, but the positive one. You have been running on your own since you were deployeed to Bosnia and she started the affair, through your return and her affair continuing, to her leaving you and the kids to be with OM. At no time has she offered you any hope. She came back to "try" but even then no hope was offered.

Then ask her friend, how would she have done with such little support or hope from her spouse?

The point here isn't that you are right or wrong. MM, the point you need to get across is that you are drained, hurt, and too weak to fight any more. You need help, her help. Tell them, exactly what I see: A man who still loves his W, a man that cannot fight her, a man who has lost all hope because he has not been offered any, and a man that only hears of his failing and her anger. YOU NEED HER HELP or the marriage is over. Then say simply: "I really don't have anything else to say and I don't know what to do."

I think you need to say this to her in front of her friend. Lay your soul bare MM, and do it in front of her friend and her. It will be embarrassing to you, but I think it will help you. If she asks what can be done, the answer is very simple. Tell me why you don't want a divorce, tell me what there is in your heart for me that I can build on to be the husband you want, tell me that I can fail and still have a chance.

It seems to me if she cannot tell you those things, then it is indeed time to move on. But, I would get together with her and her friend today, tommorrow sometime soon. Just the three of you at your house or hers and tell them these things.

Their response will help you no matter what it is.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Mortarman, yes, it is amazing when you know God's using your voice. It's also just a little unnerving, particularly when you're not even sure you believe in God! But that's all right. My belief may not be all the way there, but when "It" is speaking, I try to shut up and listen anyway.

Having said that, I finally am starting to see the death that you need to die. Stop fighting, Mortarman. No more Actions on your part. No action toward divorce, no action toward defending yourself. A man of peace listens. A man of peace loves the speaker even if the message cuts him like knives. A man of peace says to his wife, "Darling, I love you. I am suffering from my anger. I need your help." (Taken from _Anger_ by Thich Nhat Hanh.)

Let her help you. Ask for her help. Let go of determination, of strength, of invincibility. Accept vulnerability. Accept hurt.

Have you cried in her arms, MM? Have you shaken like a baby and sobbed while she held you? Have you shown her your fear?

You are right to feel relief. Not for filing (don't you dare). Relief for accepting that YOU cannot fight anymore. That's exactly, EXACTLY right. Stop fighting. Right now. Stop fighting. Accept the death of your fight. Mourn for it. And rebuild your marriage.

Mortarman,

I promise to leave the 2X4 in the garage today! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I would just like to comment on a few things you wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
She told me and the counselor that SF for her was uncomfortable (not physically) and that she felt that I had been in it for myself. WOW! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe said in part to "explain away" why she had A. Also probably said to hurt you. And it did. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I'm very sorry for that.
Perhaps she felt it needed to come out, and she felt "safer" saying it in front of counselor.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyway, I was stunned...hurt. I didnt say much else during the session, and pretty much closed down on the way home. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See, <BIG sigh>, this is where the "dying to self" would come in handy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You wouldn't have had the complete wind taken out of your sails at those statements if you weren't taking all of this so personally! DIE TO SELF. DIE TO THAT EGO (that damn "male ego" thing you guys have that makes you NEED to know that you are the best damn lover your W ever had)!!

In fact, I think your W would have had lots more to say if you had not "closed down." MM, why not try this exercise? The next time she says something that hurts immensely, why not ask her to explain? Ask her to re-phrase it. Try this: "Honey, I'm not sure what you are saying to me. Can you re-phrase that in another way? I'm trying to understand what you are telling me, but I'm confused by that last statement." Or, try something like this: "Honey, do you mean -XYZ - or is it something different? Am I missing the meaning? I don't think I understand..."

I have to admit I'm not very good at this sort of thing, but if there's one thing I've learned in 2½ years at MB, it's this: EVERYTHING is going to have to be negotiated, POJA'd. If we don't have good negotiation skills, good communication skills, the ability to ASK when something doesn't "ring" right on our brain, and we don't ask our S's to clarify, then we will only end up back where we were pre-A, holding things in, shutting our S's out, re-playing it in our brains until it causes us unneccesary hurt. We must learn new skills for the new M we are re-building THAT's why the majority of second M's do not survive. People leave M's, and move quickly into new ones, with the same lack of skills that caused problems before!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">what my wife was looking for was me to acknowledge her feelings. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe this is true. It's a skill you'll probably need to develop (but so will she, eventually).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know that I have been required by God to die for my wife...and I have found that I still havent done so. I have hurt, I have bled...but I aint dead. I know that this whole marriage, after what I heard last night, hinges on me...not my wife. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, no, your M does NOT hinge on you. GOD WANTS YOU TO DIE TO SELF!!! At the point at which you do this, HE WILL TAKE OVER AND DO THIS FOR YOU.

Blessings to you, my brother. We're all praying for you both.

AMM:

"(Can't remember...was your W the one that referred to marriage as licensed prostitution, and you got all bent out of shape about the cliche? Maybe someone else.)"

That was my FWW. But you're right, I did get all bent out of shape about it. What did I do that "worked?" Well, I'm still working on that, but the most success I've had has been 2 DROP MY ASSUMPTIONS of what that means 2 her, and ASK her if I want 2 know. I do that, and most of the time I don't understand the answers, so I drop the assumptions again, knowing what I'll do with them anyway!

MM needs 2 do this, 2. His sitch is/has been far more "intense" than mine, though my W's A lasted far longer than his did. TMCM had some excellent advice.

I would one-up him by suggesting that maybe MM should drop the "lovebank draining" metaphor entirely, because I think his adherence 2 it, combined with his frustrations, are being used by his subconscious 2 feed some sort of self-destructive self-fulfilling prophecy.

MM, TMCM is right. Your old M is OVER. You need 2 build a new one, and you can't do that by vir2ally demanding that your "new W" meet your top needs before she's ready 2. Particularly SF.

If I could find lupolady's garage, I'd hunt up that 2x4 and whack you a good one again with it, because your W's telling you she was uncomfortable with SF was another try at being honest with you about how she feels, and you blew it off (by misinterpreting it or her intentions). But you probably felt the 2x4 without me swinging it, anyway. Right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long