I've been so upset that I haven't been able to calm down enough to look at the situation.

For me, the showstopper is what Harley wrote in his book about a man's feelings for the ex-lover. The Love Bank is high. There are no withdrawals when contact stops. Tom will always be in love with Sophia.

Sure, we can build a great marriage. Yes, I think he is committed. Yes, I see that he regrets what he has done. BUT there is a permanent effect of the affair, and that effect is that he is in love with Sophia and will be even if he falls back in love with me.

Do I want this? Is this the best I can expect? Before the first kiss, I talked with him about "chastity of the heart." Really, the affair had already started.

Now what? He wants to rebuild the marriage, I do believe that intellectually he is committed to our marriage, I want our marriage to work, but I am not open to sharing his heart with another woman.

I feel as though I have two choices: put us both out of our misery, or find a way to accept having a man in love with two women. Difficult choice. I don't know that I can ever be happy with that. I don't really know what to do, but I feel as though I've gotten to the core of the issue for me.

I'd be open to any insight, especially from people where the M seems to be recovery. I know many here would be happy to think that their WS is really trying and has given up the OP, but the fact is that the WS can't really give up the OP. The damage is done. The BS has to live with it or move on. Now it's my time to decide, and I just don't see how to get past it. Lots of couples get past affairs, my H seems to think he can, but I just don't get how I can.

<small>[ December 28, 2003, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]</small>

Hi Broken,

for background:
I was the WS, and now exH and I are divorced due to the A. We are not yet in recovery, but we are on our way there, slowly. We've been separated for over three years, and our divorce was final almost 1 1/2 years ago.

I don't agree that the WS is always 'in love' with the exOP. The thought of the exOP repulses me. He enjoyed the power he had in ruining my marriage, and I have no fond memories of the entire almost four year A. It was the worst experience of my life, and it made me become an awful person for a time. THe exOP can be viewed by the WS for what he/she truly is. We might have cheated, but we don't completely lack returned good judgment and common sense!

I don't know if your H will ever feel this way about his OP. Plenty here at MB have spouses who strayed, and they're staying with them. Perhaps they would be in a better position to explain how they cope with the thought of the OP.

To me, it's about choice. You can choose to focus on the OP-- and give that OP continual power. (My goodness, she would love that, wouldn't she?)On the other hand, you can focus on the fact that your WS wants to rebuild your marriage, and continue doing things to build that relationship and make it, as Harley says, "Affair proof". In the end, which thing to focus on will help you the most in life?

Just my take,
Hopeful_Person

I don't know that harley was saying that is always the case, that makes no sense at all. I think how one feels about past relationships is a function of that relationship, growth, new knowledge, and the success of new relationships. There are plenty of ws here that came to realize the op was not a romantic interest they would choose again (for a whole range of reasons)....also how does anyone ever then get over their "1st" love...(or their 2nd, 3rd, etc.) when they go on in life and marry someone else?

On the other hand, all our life experiences contribute to who we are (and how we manifest), so whatever one learns and takes away from a past relationship is not good or bad in it's own right...it just is. You have to decide whether ones emotional/psychological history (gotta love radical honesty, that is how you get to know these things), is a deal-breaker for you. IMO someone who settles for another, while pining away for someone left elsewhere, is not marriage material...they won't be until they can resolve this issue.

Dear BHABA,

I don't agree with this. My H is repulsed by all of the OW. He wants them out of his life and out of his mind and I know that he isn't just saying this to make me happy. He has seen the real truth of each affair individually and has realized that he was a user and that sometimes he was used. He wants nothing to do with the memory of the OW.

I believe that the type of behavior that you have described is more likely to happen in a situation where the WS doesn't dig down deep and find out why they had the affair. If they can take full responsibility for their actions and do the deep emotional work (part of which is realizing how profoundly they've hurt the BS) I believe that they will be repulsed by the very thought of the OP eventually.

I'm so sorry for your pain. Your marriage can move past this. He doesn't have to be in love with the OW for all time!

Stillwed

I am deciding to end the M based on my perception that Tom considers me a poor substitute for Sophia but will stay with me because he fathered four children by me. That is my perception. It is not necessarily reality.

I think this is an issue for the MC, but I would think many BSs would feel that the person chose to stay because of commitment, not care.

Broken arm, I have to say this is one of my concerns also, so much so that after I read your post last night I couldn't sleep and have been a witch all day. My WS also thinks OW is the best thing ever and "was" deeply in love with her. So much so that he is still blind to her faults. Faults that I have seen over 20 years of being her best friend. WS seemed to have simply rewritten them and made her the damsel in distress. I think part of the problem is that he never had those love points removed from her bank which was at the all time high when he decided to "comit" to me. But with our relationship the love points keep getting taken out and put in. O' WS says all the right things, that he just doesn't think about her and that he realizes there are good and bad points to everyone. But refuses to see with clarity anything neg about her.
A friend who has been helping us through this went through the same thing seven years ago. A woman, she told me that WS would always love OW but that eventually he could love me more, but would never lose that love. Thats what happened to her, she still thinks about OM seven years later but feels so blessed that she has a H who cared enough to stick by her and now she has immense feelings for him. Also I agree with others above that state its about finding out about themselves for she realized why she did as my WS is also. But is that enough, will he ever realize the true difference between fantasy and reality or is he just sticking it out. I am hoping it is a phase in the recovery process and as my C told me recently I need to be patient recovery is so slow. I figure if it doesn't get better then I will know but for now I gotta stick it out and see.
Km4

I realize that I have spent the better part of two years trying to change his feelings about Sophia. "How could you go in the woods with that whore and let her...?" "What sort of woman would go after a married man with four young children when she is married and has two young children of her own?" I have been LBing, bigtime.

The fact is that I am terribly hurt. Once, in a familiar sort of way, after the affair came to light and when we were talking about it in bed, Tom reached over and pulled me to him and gave me THE most romantic kiss he has ever given me. I just knew that is how he kissed her. It give me more insight into the relationship than any talk we have had.

So -- he is trying to make those memories fade, he wants to rebuild our relationship, he knows intellectually that it was all a fantasy....

And what do I want? I am repulsed, literally repulsed, by the thought of a kiss. I keep bringing it up, bringing it up... and the months go on and on. MC #2 has told me whenver I have brought it up that she believes Tom is the problem, that I could get over the affair if we rebuilt a good relationship.

Well, I don't know if we can rebuild a good relationship, so now we are on MC #3. I don't want to be with a man who is in love with someone else, even a little! Even a little! I have even considered suggesting he go back to Sophia and continue the affair and then return when he is over her. At this point, I wish I hadn't exposed the affair so he had time to get her out of his system.

Something has to change. Something has to change. I am making the decision to end the marriage based on what I feel he feels about her. I don't want to share his heart with another woman. The funny thing is that I don't have his heart at all right now. I have given him nothing for years. I tried to be supportive of our marriage by forgiving abuse and supporting him in what he wanted to do if I could tolerate it, and I could tolerate a lot but not his having lunches with a woman who was telling him she felt passion for him. HE wanted nothing from me but sex and he stopped wanting that. What I heard from him, over and over and over, were things like "Leave me alone", "I need alone time," "You're too controlling"....

Well, she got passionate kisses and long lunches and long talks on the phone at the end of the day. He'd come home, give me a kiss (sometimes), go read the paper, have dinner, help get the kids to bed, and then watch TV. Now I don't even want what he once told me was a marital peck. Our relationship was devoid of passion. During the affair, I felt repulsed by sex. At the time, I told him I felt violated. In reality, I felt as though he was defecating into me. Now what? Do I really go ahead and let him kiss me when I feel so repulsed? Can I talk through this issue with MC #3? Or, do I give up the trappings of marriage and the hope of reconciliation and move on with my life, resigned to the loss? I will not remarry for religious reasons, which means there is no hope for that passionate intimacy in the future. I can enjoy my kids, I can focus on those things I enjoy, but what I most wanted in life will be closed to me.

For all the problems in our M -- the years of abuse, the years of withdrawal -- what really has the process of marital reconciliation stopped in its tracks is I don't want his heart divided. During the affair, he told me, "You work on your relationship with me and let me handle my relationship with Sophia." Well, now he says she is out of his life. She may not be physically present but emotionally I think she is.

I am just rambling. I can't sleep. I have gained more than 30 pounds since 1/3/02, before the affair came to light, when I cried and said, "I want you to care about me more than Sophia" and his reply was, "If it wasn't for the kids, I'd have been long gone."

<small>[ December 29, 2003, 04:35 AM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]</small>

Dear BH:

I have followed your posts with the hope that you would get better with time. Sometimes the night seems to be the darkest right before sunrise. I can understand your feelings. You are at the point where you deeply feel the sorrow and grief about what you have lost. You are tired of the struggle and your taker is now coming out of the back closet, asking: "What about me?"

BH, you -and only you alone can decide what you want in your life. Did you try to speak with an IC to go to the depths of your feelings about your M?

I was at the point where you are now. I was exhausted from the struggle of recovery. I felt so sad about the loss of my old M. Terrified by the violence. Scared of another A. I was thinking of leaving my H.

I am glad today that I did not do that. That I decided time and again to be humble one more time, to pick up the pieces once again and keep trying. I was rewarded with more than I had ever expected.

There has to come a point in time and in your recovery where you open yourself fully to recovery. Where you leave the hurts of the past behind. Where you can feel the forgiveness reach your heart. My H showed so much committment, patience and love that he made it possible for me to get to this point.

I wish for you that you will find the peace inside yourself. That you will be able to decide what is right for you.

Love

"The straying husband rarely falls out of love with the ex-lover."

Horse Pucky

If we decide that the quote from Harley is always true, then how can we account for so many serial OW or OM?

Most stories I've read through the years here on MB have not been just one OW or OM, seems most affairs spawn a second OP. So if they never fall out of love with OP #1, how can they tout they're "IN-LOVE" with OP #2???

Jo

A recovered alcoholic can never ever take even 1 drink.

Why?

Because of the nature of addiction.

The addict-partner is the same thing as a drink is to a recovered alcoholic.

A recovered alcoholic can get to a point where he/she no longer has active cravings for booze.

A recovered WS can get to a point where he/she no longer has active cravings for the OP.

But put a drink into the recovered alcoholic, and the cravings come roaring back.

Put the WS in contact with the OP, and the cravings come roaring back.

The recovering WS can take responsiblity for their addiction, and seek recovery - and can truely feel remorse, regret and disgust at their behavior. But the affair partner will always be a problem. Period.

This does not in ANY WAY invalidate the WS's choice to love the BS and to recover the marriage.

Addiction is a disease.

Love is a choice.


Broken ~

I've followed your posts for gosh, many months. I think that first off - you are spending too much time deciding (judging) what your husband feels or doesn't feel. Don't. You are headed down a slippery slope. Watch what your husband does, don't (disrespectfully) judge him for what you perceive is in his head. That's YOUR problem, not his.

And second....I suspect your lack of recovery has more to do with a lack from your husband in working on himself rather than a bad MC.

I agree with the alcoholic analogy.

The longer that my FWH stays away from the OW, the more he is able to really experience and understand what he did.

It is a craving for the feeling,etc. that the A provided.

BrambleRose --
I agree that I am off in a pit trying to understand Tom's feelings and decide if I can live with his having a residual of care and romantic love for Sophia. I don't think I can. It doesn't really matter what he does, and it is obvious that he is really trying.

For example, Tom got to the office today and there was a voice message from Sophia. He told me right away which I appreciate. It was unexpected to him, although not to me. We got in a big argument about her just before Christmas because I was concerned she would contact him before Christmas. The last time they talked was in March, and he told me about it beginning in August.

Anyway, I am basing my future on my perception of his feelings. That is so obviously wrong, but I don't know what to do about it. I feel so repulsed by the idea that he would continue to care for her.

You know what? It is immature and unrealistic. Of course there would be residual care for such a deep friendship and passionate sex. He has chosen to stay with me through all of this and it is just coming clear to me that I am unwilling to become intimate because I don't want to share his heart with another.

Yes, I've had boyfriends before marriage, and he's had girlfriends, but those relationships ended. This affair was interrupted when I called Sophia's husband and her husband got the truth out of her and made her quit her job. That's different from an old love relationship which didn't work out.

Our two previous MCs were both excellent. The first one could have been a coach from MarriageBuilders because she had exactly the same approach, but I was simply completely resistent to any sort of care from Tom and I ended up with a harassment order. The second MC was guiding us through negotiating to find win-win solutions, but I simply couldn't continue because it seemed there was a combative "If you win, I lose" (that's an exact quote) attitude on his part. This third MC only takes people where there has been physical abuse. While I am overwhelmed by the affair, I realize that the physical abuse -- especially such extensive and severe abuse -- is an issue that needs to be dealt with as well.

I promised myself that this third attempt is the last. My life is on hold as I try to figure out which path to take. I booted him out of the house for two months, we haven't been intimate since Easter... we need to either reconcile or separate so that each of us can go on with our lives.

I just don't see how I can get out of marriage the intimacy and affection that I desired if there is the shadow of Sophia over it. All other issues seem resolvable, but this issue does not.

<small>[ December 29, 2003, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]</small>

Well I am going to say something that you might not want to hear. What needs to change in this situation is you. It sounds like you are focusing on what you think your H/OW did to the point that you are not allowing him to take responsibility for his actions and try to make amends and work towards rebuilding a relationship with you. You are continuing to punish him for what he did, and while I in no way condone his actions your LB's are holding the two of you in an endless circle. Only you can stop it.

I don't understand why, if as you say he is trying to mend things and make the memories fade you are continuing to remind him and bring them up. Do you know why you are doing it? I know that you are hurting, but you say months and months have passed. What have YOU done to change and make this marriage work?

I have lived the existence that you are forcing on your husband. I know, I had an A and H held it over my head and nothing I could do could break his need for letting me know how 'bad' I was. It did break ME finally and I got so deeply depressed that I could hardly function. I begged him to talk to me about it and explained my feelings and how I wanted to work on our marriage. He decided that I did not love him and had an A of his own. Oh what a tangled web we weave....

It sounds like the first thing you need to do is gain control over yourself. If your marriage is to survive you have to stop allowing the OW ANY power over you and what you do. You have your H back, now is the time for you to let him know that you are the one he should be with. Your constant bickering at him is contrary to that.

As for the love thing, I can tell you without a doubt that if I were to see the OP now, there would be no love lost between us. It would not be fanning an old flame. It is over, long gone and dead. I think that a lot of people have a very shallow view of what love is/isn't. I can say that the love I feel for my H came about over 22 years of life and the experiences that we have shared both good and devastatingly bad. It is an emotion that I cannot describe as words cannot detail all that it involves. I can say that it is like a quiet undercurrent to everything I do and it is always there even if I am not actively aware of it. It is something I just 'know'. It is a great source of peace in my life; not something that can happen over the course of an A. It takes a lifetime to achieve and we are still working on it.

I think any A is mostly based on fantasy. After reading all the posts here, I still wonder how Love units can be withdrawn from the OP love bank if there is no contact? It seems this OP is wonderful. He/she also has dirty laundry but WS cannot see this. It is not Until the A gets going that they start to see the faults.

I was told by my WS that once you love someone you always love someone. I'am i missing something on how to lower lovebank units in OP to stop this attraction? It seems letting the A go the distance would do the trick, but what a price to pay to prove a point. (yeek)

Victoria you are right on target, the longer your together, you feel forever bonded, like an undercurrent. Well put.

Tom's feelings and actions are not within my control. What I decide is within my control. Unfortuneately, what I think is that my decision is going to be based on my perception of Tom's feelings more than his actions or my desires.

Sophia left a voice message for him and he sounds somewhat angry that he has to deal with it when he thought she got the message in March that he wants to go on with his life and she needs to go on with hers. I told him that lots of people on MB think the A is over after it is exposed but the WS goes back to OP. Anyway, he thinks now he'll send a NC like this: "Please do not contact me again. If you do, your H will be notified." Right now, there is no disincetive to contact him because I have a Harassment Order on me so I can't contact her or anyone associated with her and he was kind to her (his own words) the last time she called. Why not?

I hate to say this but I think that her Love Bank balance needs to go down for him before I am willing to be emotionally open to him and allow us to rebuild each other's Love Bank balances. How can that happen? All I did by berating him was to lower my balance with him rather than lower hers with him.

What can I do to address this? I feel all unhinged. I won't do anything, certainly a Harassment Order is effective for me to not do anything, and I am appreciative that Tom was immediately honest with me that she did contact him. All I can do, I suppose is to be an ally with him in saying that I do want our M to work and I have this obstacle to overcome and I don't know how to but I'm willing to try to talk it through with the MC.

Victoria and Iceprincess, thanks for your words of encouragement. Two years ago yesterday was the first arm surgery. One year ago today I called this woman's house, reached her daughter, and said, "Your mother kissed another man on the lips." That led to the harassment order. This year, what I am doing is typing a lot on MB -- a major improvement!

I think that Christmastime and our wedding anniversary (4 days before D-day)are particularly difficult times for me. I wish I could get through this and simply love the man I married, flaws and all, possibly divided heart and all. I don't know. I don't understand why I can forgive a broken arm but not the weakness that led to an affair.

<small>[ December 29, 2003, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]</small>

broken,

I'm a FWS and I disagree with Harley on this point. I'm not in love with my XOW. All I feel now is discomfort when ever I think of her, or am triggered in some way.

On the other hand, I do remember with some fondness and longing the good way she made me feel. And it's exactly those feelings which I'm working to get from my wife. Your spouse may feel the same...

HTH,

__Birm

My H said to me this weekend...

"In-love is chemical and DIES." (though, it can be revived w/ regular deposits...)

My H has learned that LOVE is a decision... a choice...

...so we stick w/ the commitment and love as a choice while making regular deposits into each other's banks... the 'in-love' feelings wane and wax...

...and he protects himself from a chemical reaction to others <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...

Cali

Great post java guy! I hadnt been giving this subject a whole lot of thought until MB boards and we have a couple threads going dealing with this type subject it was really starting to bother me but what you said, I think that is it!
Thanks so much! This really helped me hope it will others too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />