(original post now deleted)

That IS the reason I am jealous- NOT because I do not want another man for her, NOT because I am so shocked at the divorce, but because I have waited SO LONG to see this side of my WIFE again.

There is a single guy who is now dating her. This is after 10 months with one counselor, 3 months with another, and 2 sessions with yet another. I have found the children home alone on (17) occasions in the last five weeks- always after 9 PM.

The last time we had counseling (this week) “Mommy is gone again”, this time at midnight, and after I had the kids together she showed up- with Darren in her car. She later explained after a long series of lies that in fact she was taking him from one bar to another, and had just decided to come home with him for “a minute”… Whatever!

He circles the block whenever I am there. I have received strange phone calls, and a mysterious note with a bag on my door: “Thanks for the $5 Tip, What’s it For?”

Today when I called her room in Hawaii her roommate asked me if I was Darren; she said “She is in the shower, but I can get her out if this is you, Darren.”

Before I would start purporting to know “all of the facts” I might think about the possibility that a lot of times there IS another side.

I will continue to try and save my marriage; your prayers are greatly appreciated, but quit bickering about my business until you have unfortunately walked in my shoes. –J


ADDENDUM:

I wrote the note above some two weeks ago, and decided to wait and think about things before posting it. I was angry, and as part of my healing, I have been looking at how I deal with anger- and learning to step back and take a breath before I express my feelings.

My wife and I have been in counseling, as some of you might know, for 20 months. We recently began counseling again- after it was evident that she was taking her medicine. And of course, as those of you who do know her know by now that the “Cheater Man” –or whatever you guys call them here (I have my own words for him these days)- began.

Now she has told the children, after 3 months of dating him, that they may get married. This man who I have talked to on the phone and tried to explain the history of the mental illness, and the children, and the fact that we have been trying to put our marriage back together for 20 months- bought my kids a puppy for Christmas.

On Friday of last week I was supposed to have the kids from 10AM (The day after Christmas) until the 5th of January. My wife asked if the kids could go to a party with a lawyer lady she knows from work, and that she needed the job with her. I of course said OK; she was supposed to call at noon and confirm that they’d be with me by 2PM. So, I cleaned and cleaned- she had promised to come in and have a cup of coffee with me- and I was excited. Come 4PM I still had not heard from her. I called her house 5 times, which I would later learn that my son had seen me calling, but was prohibited from answering the phone.

At 9PM she called me from a bar and said “I only have 5 seconds to talk so make it quick. I am out with a friend.” She said she would call in a minute back. Then, 46 minutes later she called and said she was too tired to bring the kids home. I said “I will just come get them then” and she eventually said OK, after I reminded her that this was my time with the kids.

When I got there, she was obviously very drunk. The first thing my 5yo said to me was that “We’ve been at a drinking place!” He said that the other guy had given him quarters and told him to go have fun. This is a bar in Houston that is KNOWN for being a seriously rough place- it is a biker bar. So anyway, my 11yo son showed me the new puppy, and I was a little surprised.

The next day, my 5yo says “Daddy, [name omitted] doesn’t have a mother”. And I was like “I am sorry to hear that”. And then my 11yo goes “Well, I guess he just has problems”. And I was like “What problems?” And he says “Well he keeps telling us how his mother used to hit him in the shins with a rolling pin, every time he did any little thing wrong”. And I am like “What in the world is this guy telling my kids that for”???

Then, I am watching a kid video with my 5yo, and he starts clinging to me real tight, and I am like what’s wrong Wesley? And he says “Daddy, xxxxxx is going to put John James (my 11yo) in jail”. And I am like what???? And he says “it’s true- xxxxxx is going to put John in jail.

And so I called my 11yo and was like what?? And he said, “Well xxxxxx and mommie went to take Wes to the Mexican flea market to buy a dog and I didn’t want to go, and then they came back drunk, because they had been at the xxxxxxx xxxxxx bar, and they said we are all going to Joe’s Crabshack to eat, and I said I was hungry but did not want to go- and she never brought the food from Kroger that she said originally where she had gone with Wesley, and she said why? -and I said “because I don’t feel good about it- I think the guy is a psycho”.

So then my wife grabs the Rolling Pin and begins chasing him around the house- but she’s drunk enough where she can’t run straight. My son yells “I am going to call 911 if you hit me with that!” and then xxxxxx gets in my son’s face and screams “I’m going to give you a reason to dial 911!” –while poking his finger into my son’s chest. Yes, unfortunately it did leave bruises, and yes I have photos, and yes I have a CPS claim, and yes I have petitioned the court for a temporary custody order, and yes my lawyer wants $3500, and yes I will pay it….

In the end, they went to Joe’s and had “special dessert” and my 5yo said they all sat around and toasted / laughed that John was not going to get the “Special Dessert”. Then, they went BACK to the xxxxxxx xxxxxx bar and DRANK MORE- this is when she called with “5 seconds”. Finally, they came home and announced to John how they had had the dessert and laughed that he did not get any.

My kids tell me that mommy and xxxxxx drink “forever, for hours” and “then we get in his car and he drives fast”. I said “where do you go?” and they said “bars”. My 11yo tells me xxxxxx’s car is parked next to where he gets on the bus each morning for school. What’s up with that?? 3 months of knowing this guy?? I am beside myself that I have been married to someone for 12 years who capable of this kind of behavior.

Yes I cheated! Yes it was wrong!! Yes I am sorry!!! God, please help me…

<small>[ January 21, 2004, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: -Nut Cheerios ]</small>

What's your WW's MB handle? If we are to help her we need to know who she is.

NutCheerios,
Don't worry about that right now. Many here are certan we know who your WW is.

Right now, we want to help you. What can we do for you? What do you want to do?

What can you do right now to keep your precious children safe? I know I'm not alone when I say I fear for them, being around this kind of behavior, and out with drunken drivers at all hours.

Please, PLEASE see the danger they are in. If there is any way to substantiate any of what you are saying, I think you should move for an immediate custody hearing and remove them from her possession.

First let's get your boys out of harm's way. Then we can talk about how to help your W and M, ok?

I apologize, but I am only interested in communicating with those who already know my wife-

I feel there is too much history- moving too fast- for anybody to catch up.

As you might also guess, I am also a little weary of those who only know One Side of the story.

I appreciate you all- yes, I am trying- you have to please understand that my wife is a GREAT person.

I Love her, but I'm pretty sure our marriage is gone. One PI tells me that her boyfriend is SLEEPING outside her front door...

Okay, I know who your W is. Her screen name combined with yours is a breakfast cereal, correct?

I'll tell you NC, I'm not sure what to think with all this unstableness in your relationship and how your children are being profoundly affected by it, how can they not be. This has been going on for years now, aren't you concerned for them, and what are you going to do differently to make a STABLE life for them? I know you love them, but they are not being protected, and it's not just recently, it's been going on for years. What are you going to do about it?

I'm sorry if I'm coming across stern or even mean, but please start putting THEM first. They are the children and innocent in all this, you agree? It's time for both of you to grow up, IMHO.

Jo

OK nut cheerios - who to believe - you or her??? I mean she has been posting for quite awhile - making it seem like you were the alcholic not paying child support - etc... And when anyone would say something that she didn't like she would fly off the handle - Now basically what do you want anyone to do??? What can we do??? All we know that they are two boys - that are either living with a mother with major problems - or staying with a father who doesn't work - who drinks all of the time or that lives in a seedy neighborhood...??? From what I can tell your kids are the tragedy of this story... If she is driving around or exposing your kids to bars - just like she used to say that you did all of the time - I would give you the same advice - that I would have given her - get the kids away from her - call the police - get custody of those kids and protect them... At all costs they are what are important - not your marriage at this point - those kids....They at what 11 and 5 have been exposed to way to much and for way to long... Make a decision in this situation but make it in the best interest of the boys - these kids need stability - they need the stable parent - they need the one that is going to think of them first and not themselves ... They need the grown up .... Stop think about what situation they are living in and do what is in their best interest - not yours not your wifes - but theirs.... I truly hope that you both find your way - if not together than apart - but the destructiveness must stop.....

OK. Gosh. I am here with my kids- making them dinner, so whatever. Like I just found out, xxxxxx is sleeping on my wife's doorstep- saying that he loves her. I have tried to explain to this man that he is playing a High Stakes game- for something he has no idea what he is getting into. But believe what you will- take the things I say with a grain of salt, because I still love her- but like I said, I am pretty sure the marriage is over.

As for maturity- Yes, that IS a point, but again I have no desire to deal with those who have a limited view of the situation.


Thank you again, J

<small>[ January 03, 2004, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: -Nut Cheerios ]</small>

Jim,

This is hardly a limited view of the situation. Your wife has been posting here for quite some time, and I am one of many that have not always agreed with her.

From both your accounts [i.e. combining your story and her story], there has not been stability in your marriage or in the two ADULTS in your marriage for YEARS. If you only want to hear from people that will agree with you and validate you, then you, like your wife, have come to the wrong place.

Jo

Hey,

Fair Enough. Thank you for your honesty. Please know my ONLY intention has to try and offer an alternative perspective to the relationship I am in.

It made me sad to learn I had been painted in such a light.

Try walking in my shoes sometime; I hope you never have to. But like I said, I DO love my wife very much.

If you are ever interested in seeing the bruises my son has from his mother's new boyfriend, then just please drop a line.

In the mean time, please make your assumptions as they seem appropriate. I just got done explaining to some family members the same thing....

Talk at you later, Jim

J,

I don't doubt in the least that you love your wife or children. What concerns me is the instability and destructiveness your children are living under.

We here at MB hear that when they are with you there's drinking in the picture and times the kids are in the car when this occurs, and on and on. Then, we hear from you and hear the same and excessively worse.

Who do we believe?

If you were us, wouldn't you suspect both parents of the same?

Jo

Hello NC,

Your wife has been especially supportive of my posts in the last few years. I'm sure she is a good woman and her posts have often tugged at my heart.

Whatever the story is between the two of you, I pray you both gain the courage to seek the help you need to heal yourselves and your marriage. The future of your children depends on this...please, whatever it takes, DO IT.

My prayers are with you.

J,

While I am not partcularly "interested in seeing the bruises my son has from his mother's new boyfriend," but I'm sure the police would be interested.

What do you hope to accomplish by being here? We are all here trying to get you (and earlier, your W) to grow up, become the STABLE ADULT your children need, stop the destructive behavior, and figure out what you want to do.

As I have stated over and over to you, Please begin to take care of your boys. All the time, not just tonight. If there is abuse going on, file for protection. Get a stable environment for them. Then, and only then can either one of you start thinking about what your future (together or separately) should be.

There's too much drama. Too much "He said, she said." It would be impossible for us to know the truth. My H's elderly aunt used to say "There are 3 sides to every story - Your side, her side, and the truth." THAT is the truth. I am trying to look in-between what both of you have said and find the truth. I do believe much of your "side of the story" - but what concerns me now is what you have added to equation about what she is doing while having your boys around om.

All I can see is two very self-centered people, who might love each other, but have self-destructive behaviors........and who are unable to put their own WANTS aside to care for their children.

Please be the one who starts to change that. Right now. Please.

Please know that I do identify with you in frustration of people not hearing both sides. I too faced that when my husband who has a proven track record of pathological lying, yet seemingly every word from his mouth was believed by a few people in my church.

Over the past few years I've too become frustrated at times with your wife's inability to "hear" the wise advice given here. Never in any of her posts did I detect rudeness or cruelty. You're right, she is a good person.

Given that, I find it suspect that we don't hear from you until she moves on with her life. As bad as the story is on your part, it was just as bad on her part. If she were so mentally ill, why did you leave her with the children?

Just as others my main concern now is with your sons. Could her parents take the children until all of this is sorted out? They need to know that home is a place of security and peace.

By the way, I didn't know there was medication for personality disorders...

Uggh. I am sure that I have had no agenda for what I expect from you people. I have expressed repeatedly my apprehension at trying to repair marital problems with folks who have a one-sided view, I had hoped to express thanks to a few ofyou, and did not expect the reaction I have received thus far.

Thank you for your time and insight! I will think about you guys (and gals) this evening.

In the mean time, just so you know: YES it is possible to love someone who develops mental illness. I am living proof. And YES, it is possible that those who fall in love might be ill themselves- again, I am living proof.

But I WILL get better, and the kids WILL have a measurable improvement (those of you know what I mean).

In the mean time, thank you all so much, and I will try to keep you posted.

Please say a prayer,

Jim

By the way, YES there is medication typically prescribed for Personality Disorders. Usually a PD involves serious depression or, in this case, "Mania".

That is what happens when someone is unable to express happiness in an effective manner.- The usual result is someone who is un-naturally giddy and typically incoherent, as has been the case for us.

Don't try to paint me in the light of someone who does not care... or someone who does not at least TRY to understand... I have tried 20 years by LIVING it.

Thanks, Jim

<small>[ January 03, 2004, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: -Nut Cheerios ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by -Nut Cheerios:
But I WILL get better, and the kids WILL have a measurable improvement (those of you know what I mean).

In the mean time, thank you all so much, and I will try to keep you posted.

Please say a prayer,
Jim</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jim,

There are prayers going up for your family, and for you to make sound decisions for you and your children.

I have to say, most of what you wrote in your last post was so abstract I'm having trouble deciphering it.

But I will ask if you can tell me what you meant by your passage up above in BOLD font. Are you taking steps to ensure your children's protection. I truly pray you are.

Jo

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">-Nut Cheerios wrote:
I wrote the note above some two weeks ago, and decided to wait and think about things before posting it. I was angry, and as part of my healing, I have been looking at how I deal with anger- and learning to step back and take a breath before I express my feelings.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is a good start, and I commend you for it, J. It isn't easy to change our ways, change is so unnatural.

I have a different problem with anger, I internalize it and it manifests itself as depression. My depression from anger was situational from my ex-H's betrayal. I've come a long way since then.

I always thought anger was a bad thing, but come to find out it's a natural reaction to some of life's situations, and "being angry" is not necessarily bad as long as we express it in a healthy constructive way.

I just think it's admirable to recognize a needed change in ourselves and do our best to make that change. It isn't easy to do, but very worthwhile.

Jo

<small>[ January 03, 2004, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

Hi NCheerios,

Welcome to MB. I wrote out one of my 'short' posts to you and well, H deleted it 'on accident'. So I will try again and make it 'shorter' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

As with all 'newbies', I encourage you to read the concepts section. Have we heard a bit about you? Yes, we have. I am sure you have heard a bit 'bout us too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Ok, know that this board is made up of BS, WS, children, friends, relatives, etc from all walks of life. Basically here to help and learn from not only our mistakes but to learn and avoid others as much as possible.

R all BS good and all WS bad? Nope. We are all imperfect and most of us are here to learn and heal. Some learn fast others a bit slower but most learn. The ones that don't....leave. Know that a few trip over here from the dark side (TOW board) and so it isn't 100% in favor of MB who post here but the majority are respectful of this site.

Given the above, I am glad you came to post. This is a free place to put your thoughts and know the healing of a family requires the help of all. It is not the 1st nor the last time that the tables can be turned. Now it may be your time to show that you really mean what you say. It sure looks different when you are out of the fog and really see your family, right?
I know, my H was the Ws and his demeanor is way different than the past. Almost human or humane - ??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ??? While in his A, he was an angry man more than the past and turned into a creature that literally scared the daylights out of me. Of course those were turbulent times but we survived. When he came home, I had the urge to step out and leave also....you see when the WS starts to return to their senses, the BS feels they don't have to keep up the guard as much and this is a very vulnerable time for the BS. Yet the WS tends to expect the BS to keep up the same pace to be all and do all as during the A/foggy days. That is not fair.

I am NOT defending unhealthy actions by any BS. I am merely stating that it is a tiring position to be in having to be the mainstay and never knowing when a moment to relax will come. Kinda like being on call 24/7 forever.

To address your children. They need to feel safe, be safe, happy and healthy. That is the responsibility of both parents. Whether or not u 2 like each other at the moment.

If you really love your W, you will continue to show loving acts. The undeniable one. If she chooses to end the M, understand that she maybe past her physical and emotional limit of dealing with the issues from the past or she may need healing time for herself. Her healing may be just as hard as your was. Don't be angry at her for that.

Realize that just as much as you had felt she could not tell you what to do, you have to accord her the same also. Oh yea, it goes both ways and neither one feels good to the other spouse. Swallow it. Don't let your pride get in the way. She did put up with a lot from you right? Ok, dig your heels down some of that may be thrown back at you.

If she chooses to make a fool of herself, you have to make sure you and the children are safe. She is an adult and sometimes adults do stupid things. Make sure you control your actions and if that makes her angry, step aside and let her actions speak for themselves.

By the way, that is what we told your W to do to you. It took her a while but eventually she was able to try some of it. Looking back, I am sure you see where even you would have had a hard time if you were on the receiving end of some of your previous actions, right?

Just some food for thought. I am sure both of you will be reading the posts on this thread. That being the case, please know that I have nothing to gain by seeing you continually hurt each other..... but I do hurt seeing that happen.

Please, have a heart and make this 'ol gal smile. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

take care,
L.

ok J, I'm going to ask a few tough questions. Your choice whether you answer or not.

Are you an alcoholic?
Do you have a job?
Have you supported the children monetarily?
Have you refused to live in the family home because her parents "own" it?
Did you post pics on your website of your other women along with disparaging comments about your wife?


I know "your story", as much as anyone else here looking in from the outside. I'll tell you what I've told your wife, the children and what they are learning from this is the only thing that matters. Protect them.

Hi NC,

As you can see by my sig, I've been here at least as long as your W, maybe longer. So yeah, I've heard her story, and I as many others have tried to a) be encouraging in a positive way, b) be as unbiased as possible, including being brutally honest with her at times - that maybe her "way" wasn't the best way. So rest easy on that front, at least.

I don't claim to know your full stories... I'm sure if you take the pieces from both and put them together it would be a huge challenge, even for a professional counselor - something none of us claims to be.

Which brings me to a first idea... You say you're in counseling together. How do you feel that's working? Is it being productive? If not, PLEASE consider finding a "better" counselor. The fact is, many counselors simply sit there with dumb looks on their faces and offer no real solutions-based direction.

Now I know that MarriageBuilders counseling is very expensive. It was expensive when I did it, and I understand it's even more expensive now. BUT... It IS solutions-focused and might be worth exploring, even if just a few sessions. (No, I'm not a salesman, can't even claim it "saved my marriage" - but it's got traits I'd think you'd want to resolve this huge conflict. First and foremost it saved my sanity, and for that it was worth every penny!)

Second, if your W is as ill as you describe, counseling may not be very effective. The same can be said for ANY ADDICTION - a marriage CANNOT HEAL when there's an addiction involved, or at least it's extremely difficult. There's plenty of evidence out there to back this, including on this site. So... specifically as it relates to alcohol... and focusing on yourself for the answer... any issues / problems there? Or asked another way, has alcohol ever been a factor in arguments? has it affected judgment? has it been used to "escape" ever? You're a smart guy, you can see what my questions are getting at.

Healing a broken marriage takes a lot of work, obviously. And it takes a lot of self-sacrifice to get to the point of being able to say, “I did all that I can.”

So what DO you want? In an ideal situation, what would happen?

<small>[ January 04, 2004, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: J.R. ]</small>