I have been out of the MB loop for quite awhile, and just to let everyone know, my situation with WH never improved, except I have finally closed that chapter to my life happily and am starting divorce proceedings. What I am writing about this time has nothing to do with my marriage.

Anyone who has had contact with me over the past 18 months knows I truly believe in the sanctity of marriage, I stuck by a man for way too long for that exact reason. One thing I always a hard time with on MB is reading peoples stories that were truly not in love with their spouse any more for various reasons, or BS's and even WS that were married to truly difficult people, and the kind people of MB talked non-stop that no matter what you have to make your marriage work-no matter what! Believe me, I am true believer in trying, but is there not a time that enough is enough and you truly could have feelings for someone else, maybe you have truly met your soul mate? I'll explain a little more:

A couple months ago, I met this guy, and we became really good friends-totally friends first, but with the potential it might lead somewhere. He had been separated for 5 months. From the get-go we asked if our S came back would we try again, his response_"No way, too many things happened-he's moved on", myself "possibly, we have a child and 14 years", long story short, H and I decided to try counselling and this is when I realized I am truly done with our marriage, once that happened, things started to progress with "John", only once I realized my marriage was over, I also realized that I missed "John" like crazy-I think I was finally over my H (BTW, my H agreed to counselling but didn't think he was still ready to "work" on our M).

"John" and I took our friendship to the next level, we were on the phone 2-3 hours most days (he is on the road frequently), an extremely intimate relationship in our conversations. WE discussed our M's, how we felt about each other, when he came home we spent a weekend together (non-sexual), I picked furniture out with him, decorated x-mas tree. We talked about his W showing up one night crying etc, but he realized he was done with her, he couldn't help her anymore. He told me that in all his years of M he had never felt so comfortable, we were falling for each other....The week of Christmas we called each other a few times a day, he would tell me how he would wake up thinking of me etc. Boxing day he took his son (from a prev. R) to see his ex-in laws as they hadn't seen him in 7 months and that night, his ex showed up at his place and begged and pleaded to take her back, they talked for a day and a half and he finally agreed. All I got from first on the Sat. was that we couldn't get together that night, some stuff has happened and we need to talk. He was flying out the next day and would try to contact me. I ended up getting an e-mail confirming my fears, he was sorry but had a lot invested, not sure how it will work be needed to try...I tried to call him and I finally spoke to him 2 days later, I was not angry-just hurt, he explained how it happened, he might be a sucker but again, he needed to try. He was very guarded with me. I sent him an e-mail today explaining how hurt I had felt, and just want to know if he was putting me on about his feelings for me etc, how I truly cherished our friendship, and hope the best for him.

Now the question....Am I wrong in thinking this M won't work? That maybe he and I did have a real connection? Am I wrong in hoping to some degree that it doesn't work? She left him for several reasons, he thinks she may have even been cheating (I think she came back maybe because her A ended and now she is lonely). There is a lot of detail about their R and ours but I would be here forever. I am just wondering when is enough-enough and you do find that person, is it wrong to move forward with someone other than your S?

Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to give as much understanding as possible.....

<small>[ January 04, 2004, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: zacharysmom ]</small>

ZM, what happened in your short relationship is often what happens when MARRIED people date. It is often a disaster. That is why its always best to A) be divorced and B) be completely over the last relationship before you start the other. You folks were neither.

Apparently he was not finished at all with his marriage. It is always best to try and save a marriage, if possible, but that doesn't mean you should try to save every marriage. Some are simply BEYOND help. It sounds like his was not beyond help at all and he is trying to do the right thing and repair his marriage and save his family.

I just hope you respect that and don't do anything to interfere with his marriage. He needs all the help he can get, not interference.

The lesson here is to wait until you are available, emotionally and legally, to date.

I am sorry to hear that you and your H weren't able to work things out. Hope you are doing ok.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zacharysmom:
<strong>

Now the question....Am I wrong in thinking this M won't work? That maybe he and I did have a real connection? Am I wrong in hoping to some degree that it doesn't work? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're wrong for thinking anything more than wishing him the best. Anything else is not your business. He is a married man and his first obligation is to his wife. He has a much stronger connection to her, he is her husband.

zacharysmom,

You have an EA with this "John". There is no right or wrong ... it just what you could live w/ yourself. I do not impose my beleive or value ... I once violated that too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> .

However take a step back and look at your situation again. WHAT THIS LIFE EVENT MEANS TO YOU ?.

1. Dv paper is just a piece of paper same thing with M certificate. The key in here is ... when do you think you are married to H and when do you divorced to H ?. For some people says when one filed or one cheated on the other, for other it is when it is legalized. For me is the later, not until it is done. If you beleive the later then you should wait and not to even "window shopping". If you can't wait b/c of feeling lonely then get someone who is willing to wait 'till Dv, respecting your M, and willing to be your freind (non romantic R).

2. In this time of hurt we are so prone to fall into the fog our self. We tend to pick up the first one we think is our "soulmate" ... sit back and look at what you think of John and who John is. Between your "fantasy" of him and "real" him. You might see the writing on the wall.

3. You should send NC to him. Don't even think of write "I will wait" or "I will be here " ... You should make it clear that you want NC and wish him the best with his M. This is actually for your own good !. If he dump his wife b/c you interfere ... you are no different than OW ! and your chances of making this R to M is 3% plus he might have gulity feeling later.

Please ... please ... Live Love and Lean ... You live the life you want ... You love your self and You learn from your mistake.

I know it is suck and hurt!. I have my own story to tell but it is not going that far (romantic R) at all. However it is still hurt like crap!.

-rh-

One more to add ... he might not have the same value <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> .

<small>[ January 04, 2004, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

THanks ML, In all fairness he and I thought he was completely done with his marriage-no question, at first it was me that was keeping his eyes open. I know what you are saying that his obligation is to his W, but I also wondered where does the scorned persons obligation end?? I know if my H came back tomorrow begging, the advice I would get here would likely be the same about trying to save my M, but I think I fulfilled mine, I begged and pleaded, attempted counselling, left it alone, and he had no obligation to me. "John's" W left him because she didn't want to be married anymore, his job puts him on the road too much etc, he asked for counselling etc and she said no, took half the furniture, got an apt. and showed no obligation to him. Honestly, I hope he is doing this for the right reasons and not only out of obligation. I have no intention of interfering in their attempt to work on it, but I felt that I needed to explain to him why I was hurt, I deserve my closure in this. I did say that I wished him the best, as well, if he honestly ever needs a friend, he knows where to find me.

Please make no mistake, we talked so much about this there was no reason to think that he wasn't over it, except for the legality, in which case, that is also only a piece of paper, feelings aren't ruled by that. I know you say that"legally" he has a much stronger connection with her, but what about emotionally? That is what I was asking about? What about when all your feelings die for someone and you can't get them back, are you still obligated to stay in that M?

Please don't mistaken my question for not applauding him for trying, I am all for never living with a "What if", but given what we started I deserved a proper ending, maybe especially because he said more than a dozen times he would NEVER take her back. If he would've said maybe, I will never say never, then maybe my eyes would have been a little more open...

PS-believe it or not, about my M I am finally doing ok.....

Redhat, thanks.....I have not made any promise to wait, I have only said that if he ever needs a friend, he knows where to find me. We did have a great friendship first and foremost, but under no circumstance will I accept this friendship while he is working on his M.
I guess maybe as I reflect I was wrong in sending this e-mail to him, my only purpose was to validate how I felt, and I wanted proper closure, not to add confusion to him.

I have been separated for over 15 months and right now the D is only a formality, maybe different people have different views on that. With him, he was only separated for almost 7 months when we determined how we felt, but he had purchased their house, bought new furniture, starting the D after Christmas, again, seemed like a formality...

Redhat, believe me, I hope I have learned, but now am I more guarded, the same thing could happen to a divorced person. I guess now my lesson is, never invest 100% emotionally. This was not the first person I had an opportunity to have an R with, only the first person I had the desire to have an R with in over a year....

ZM

Recovery sometimes turns out to be just personal recovery not marital recovery.

The MB's population is not a cross section of the general population. Instead it is a select group of people willing to go the distance and then a few more steps further to save their marriages.

So understand that this group by the very nature of the site is pro marriage.

But there is a reason 50% of all first time marriages fail. And its not always about unmet needs or infidelity.

Sometimes we make foulish choices in a spouse. Soemtimes we fail to see differences that should have kept us from marrying our spouse.

Anyhow I think everyone wants marriages to work but I think most realize that is simply not how things work in the world.

If you went the distance. If you loved in good faith and things still didn't work then don't fault yourself.

You already went to the trouble to make sure years down the road you didn't do the "what if" game and thats more than many do.

Good luck regardless of the outcome may you find recovery if not for your marriage then for yourself.

ZM,

I really don't believe you have found your "soulmate".It seems to me that it is a term heavily used to describe those feelings found in a NEW mate that a person probably hasn't felt in a long time.It is infatuation and only the first stage of "falling in love".Every couple's love goes through stages and it never stays the same.Only those couples really adept at meeting eachothers needs are able to keep the type of love that we all want long term.But as a lot of us know,we get busy,don't pay attention or are not "schooled" in just how to keep our relationships fresh and alive.

"Soulmate" I think is again,a term that some people use to justify questionable behavior.

No matter what this man was telling you,unless he is DIVORCED,you should not have become involved.I am one of those that does NOT believe that separation means going out and dating other people to see how that works.Separation to me means going away on your own to sort out thoughts and feelings about your spouse and the marriage.Even if this man is trying to work on his marriage because of *obligation or any other reason,it should be first before anyone else.People really need to take a break after a divorce and NOT be with anyone but themselves IMO.It is not wise to jump from one relationship to another and not reflect on what that relationship really meant to you and why it failed.You are doomed to repeat those mistakes without that reflection.

O

Stunned Dad, thank you, I believe in my own marriage I did everything I could, I am walking away from this happy, that is also why I am not bashing "John" for trying, I only feel that I deserved a "proper ending", out of respect and I wanted him to know that is more why I was hurt.

I know several people will flame me for not being divorced first and believe me I have had my own internal battle, but I think I towed the line and did what I could, now the divorce is just a formality-sorry if some don't agree.

Octobergirl,thank you also, but I used the term Soulmate generally speaking not for my situation, I may have mis-wrote that,sorry for the confusion. All I can say is we had strong feelings for each other at this point.

Please don't get me wrong, although I believe there is too much water under the bridge for them, I have not said that him, I haven't even validated his thought that she had cheated on him. The other day when we spoke and he said "I might be a sucker", I responded by saying "Only you will be the one to find that out, no one can tell you otherwise, you can't live with a What if".

I have been separated for 15 months and have done a lot of personal growth, I do know now that I have more to do....

<small>[ January 04, 2004, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: zacharysmom ]</small>

zacharysmom,

Now let me tell you one of my 2 stories ... I was Dv for 9 months ... I am window shopping ....

I met a woman that was separated for 2 years and Dv for about 3 months. We have mutual attraction so we went out for coffee and so on. It is a freindship date, "get to know you". I detect right away that she isn't over with her "Dv guilt" ... hers was no A, no abandonment, it is a family pressure. I am putting up my guard up but I still talk to her to convey MB principal that she could rekindle their love and give a try to her M. When I see a spark in her eyes, I knew I am in trouble. She wants to bring the R to the next level and express it to me. She even stated that she knew she could work on M but tis time she doesn't want to. I would be flattered in a normal situation but not this ... I told her to get help to decide but I am going to be NC with her in the mean time. If it meant to be our path will cross again. When she decides she might not want me but I rather have peace w/ myself. In practical sense if we bring it up to the next level her Dv guilt is a baggage that will contaminate our R.

-rh-

One thing I always a hard time with on MB is reading peoples stories that were truly not in love with their spouse any more for various reasons, or BS's and even WS that were married to truly difficult people, and the kind people of MB talked non-stop that no matter what you have to make your marriage work-no matter what! Believe me, I am true believer in trying, but is there not a time that enough is enough and you truly could have feelings for someone else, maybe you have truly met your soul mate? I'll explain a little more:

No one at marriagebuilders can make anyone's marriage...
No one at marriagebuilders can make someone stay in a marriage...it is there choice alone...

and people here definitely do not presecribe to making a marriage work no matter what...

people have 10000% free choice...
nothing posted here has any real power over what someone chooses in their own marriage...

people come here stating they want to make their marriage work...other posters offer tips and advice...

people come here stating they thought they wanted to make their marriage and have changed their minds...
other posters offer tips and advice...

each person solely chooses when enough is enough...
not the kind people of MB

ARK

Ark, I meant absolutely no offense, I have found a lot of solace in this site. There were times that I would read threads and hear these horrible stories, about extreme infidelity and extremely unhappy marriages, and some people not all, would encourage the BS or even WS (sometimes they were wanting out of the M for reasons other than their A), and the advice frequently was to try to make the marriage work, I am only questioning when enough is enough? I know only those 2 people know, but even myself at times felt guilty by words said here and I wasn't the one who did anything wrong. AGAIN, this was not directed at everyone....

Now I have a question, I sent an e-mail to him today only to explain my hurt (like I said there was a lot that happened this week, mainly him completely avoiding me), why I was so shocked about him trying again, for my own information, did I misjudge what was happening to him, but again I re-iterated to him-best of luck, I truly hope he finds happiness etc. After posting here, I am afraid that it could be mistaken for a guilt trip, which WAS NOT the intention, I said a few angry words to him yesterday about something else, and I wanted to explain my anger...Now I am tempted to leave him a message letting him know this e-mail was in no way meant to confuse him, or anything, it was just something I needed to explain...Or do I just leave it as is?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zacharysmom:
<strong>
Redhat, believe me, I hope I have learned, but now am I more guarded, the same thing could happen to a divorced person. I guess now my lesson is, never invest 100% emotionally. This was not the first person I had an opportunity to have an R with, only the first person I had the desire to have an R with in over a year.... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But the same thing is MUCH LESS likely to happen to a divorced person. This was a married man who was still legally, if not emotionally, committed to his wife. He is a MARRIED MAN. If someone has taken the steps to go through a divorce, it is much more likely they are not committed to thier spouse. That was not the case here. Nor had near enough time elapsed to for him to be emotionally healed from a divorce, he hadn't even STARTED on that process.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know you say that"legally" he has a much stronger connection with her, but what about emotionally? That is what I was asking about? What about when all your feelings die for someone and you can't get them back, are you still obligated to stay in that M?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He is obligated to do what he chooses and it looks like he has chosen his wife. So there must be some type of committment, and feelings, there for him to go back to her. This is what he wants to do. It is irrelevent whether he is doing it out of a sense of obligation or because he really loves her. The outcome remains the same: HE CHOSE HIS WIFE.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now I have a question, I sent an e-mail to him today only to explain my hurt (like I said there was a lot that happened this week, mainly him completely avoiding me), why I was so shocked about him trying again, for my own information, did I misjudge what was happening to him, but again I re-iterated to him-best of luck, I truly hope he finds happiness etc. After posting here, I am afraid that it could be mistaken for a guilt trip, which WAS NOT the intention, I said a few angry words to him yesterday about something else, and I wanted to explain my anger...Now I am tempted to leave him a message letting him know this e-mail was in no way meant to confuse him, or anything, it was just something I needed to explain...Or do I just leave it as is?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why wouldn't you leave him alone and let him work on his marriage unimpeded? If you and your H got back together would you appreciate it if some ex-GF was trying to interfere with the recovery of your marriage? C'mon, the man is trying to work on his marriage. Leave him alone. Think about HIM, not yourself. Please don't harrass him.

<small>[ January 04, 2004, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zacharysmom:
[QB] I am only questioning when enough is enough? I know only those 2 people know,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But why are you asking the question, ZM? It is not your marriage so it is not for you to ask. It is for him and his wife to ask that question and determine for themselves when enough is enough, NOT the girlfriend. And apparently they have decided that enough IS NOT enough and are trying to save their marriage.

Zacharymom

Go back and re-read the posts by Melodylane. You are missing the whole point by your "foggy" thinking. What you had was an EA with a married man. You obviously didn't learn anything about betrayal from your WH. Marriage is a legal and moral contract between two people. A marriage is NOT over until the divorce is final. You have no right to closure of anykind with MM. He has a W and family to think about. Why don't you do the same.

Beau

I think I honestly made a mistake coming here, I am being targetted as the other woman, I started dating a man who pursued me and was in the process of moving towards a D, buying his house, refurbishing it etc, on all emotional levels he said it was over, she left him and for the past 2 years they did not have much of a marriage.

ML, to say that I am harassing him is harsh, what we started,whether you guys feel it was right or wrong, did start, and as I have said I am not begging him to change his mind , but he said some things to me that I feel I deserve a little bit of an explanation. And yes, if my H and I got back together and had been in an R with someone else, you are damn right I believe she deserves a proper break up, I lived it with his OW, no one deserves to be thrown to the side no matter what choice you make, believe it or not, I didn't feel my H's OW deserved it either. I have no intention in trying to determine when enough is enough for him, I have already said that, I have never questioned him about his decision or reasons for it .

SonofWF-thank you for your kind words, remind me when I am feeling really low and want to kicked again I will call you...I damn well know what it feels like to be the BS, his wife wanted nothing to do with him, she told him several times she couldn't wait until he went away, she was happier without him, and because he started something with me falsely or otherwise, I am a human being with feelings, all I wanted to explain to him is why it hurt me, not that he got back to her, but he couldn't even bloody well call me. So please, don't ever accuse me of being the OW, one thing I thought I could get here was no judgement, and I have seen less judgement on people who are actually screwing around on their spouses. I have obviously come to the wrong place, I was on here today and thought I might seek some guidance, but obviously I am now painted as a WS as well as OW, you are entitled to your opinion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zacharysmom:
[QB] I think I honestly made a mistake coming here, I am being targetted as the other woman, I started dating a man who pursued me and was in the process of moving towards a D, buying his house, refurbishing it etc, on all emotional levels he said it was over, she left him and for the past 2 years they did not have much of a marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But ZM, don't you see? You ARE the OW now. He is a married man. Granted, he was seperated when you met, but he not seperated NOW. Now is the time to bow out gracefully and move on. Don't make it worse than it already is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ML, to say that I am harassing him is harsh, what we started,whether you guys feel it was right or wrong, did start, and as I have said I am not begging him to change his mind , but he said some things to me that I feel I deserve a little bit of an explanation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He owes you nothing. He is a married man and he said goodbye. He said that he is going to work on his marriage. That is all he owes you. The one he owes is his wife, not you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am a human being with feelings, all I wanted to explain to him is why it hurt me, not that he got back to her, but he couldn't even bloody well call me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ZM, I am sorry you are hurt, really I AM, but that was the choice you made when you decided to get involved with a MARRIED MAN. That was your choice, not ours. You decided to take that risk and it didn't work out. And now the decent thing to do is to step aside and leave the man alone. Let him work on his marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zacharysmom:
<strong>I was on here today and thought I might seek some guidance, but obviously I am now painted as a WS as well as OW, you are entitled to your opinion. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But we have given you guidance, ZM, You just don't like what we have told you.

When he said "goodbye", it was a very brief e-mail that ended with "if you want to talk call me tonight I will be at my hotel around 11PM", he put the original offer out to talk to me, then avoided me. Yesterday we exchanged words in e-mail about $ he owed me (I had left him 2 msgs that he wouldn't call me back on), and today I felt bad that there was anger, I only wanted to explain to him why I was hurt and angry, but I understood his choice. The point that may be getting missed, I am not angry at him for getting back with his wife, it is how he handled it with me. I will not see myself as the OW as there is nothing going on nor am I trying to pursue anything with him.

ML, this has nothing to do with not liking your advice this has to do with being called the OW, and making statements that I am harassing him and didn't I learn anything from being cheated on.

My lesson for sure, obviously be more aware that you can never be sure of anything. Please don't patronize me about this being my choice not yours, when we started a friendship ONLY, a certain amount of trust developed there, whether he was still "legally" married or not, she left him, I am not going to battle out the moral issue on dating when you still "married", again that part is a matter of opinion.

Again I will say, I posted my story, but was questioning when enough is enough in general terms. Obviously the view on me is that I am an indecent person who doesn't deserve a "decent" break up, so move on, get over it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zacharysmom:
<strong>

Again I will say, I posted my story, but was questioning when enough is enough in general terms. Obviously the view on me is that I am an indecent person who doesn't deserve a "decent" break up, so move on, get over it. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ZM< I am sorry if I came across as patronizing when I said it was your choice, was trying to emphasize that you aren't a victim here. When you choose to get involved with a married man, there is a very strong risk that he will go back to his wife. You knew that going into the situation. You were willing to take that risk.

Just because a person feels like the marriage may be over today doesn't mean that won't change tomorrow. My point was to emphasize that you made this choice and willingly took this risk. The only person you have to blame is yourself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again I will say, I posted my story, but was questioning when enough is enough in general terms. Obviously the view on me is that I am an indecent person who doesn't deserve a "decent" break up, so move on, get over it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think you are indecent at all, I think you are a good person with the best of intentions. I think you just used bad judgement getting involved with a married man and are now angry that the inevitable happened. I just hope you choose to do the decent thing now and step away and let the man work on his marriage.