zacharysmom,

You know I was the first few people response to you way back then. I only want you to be safe & better.

ML tries to tell you from her beleive and faith, there is a merit to it. However what is important now WHAT THIS LIFE EVENT MEAN TO YOU ?.

You only hear 1/2 of the story of their M from "John". How did you verify his story ?. Let him go and next time get single or unmarried man ...

-rh-

Isn't it the case that MM paint the picture of their marriage as bleak or dead? Don't they make the spouse out the be the bad person and at fault? Don't they do that to justify within themselves and to the person they're having a relationship with that it's right?

Bless your heart ZM..you were an OW and you can't see it.

ZM was he legally seperated?

If he was legally seperated and not living with his wife I think there is some gray here that needs to be considered.

Legal seperation often is a prelude to divorce or as my attorney told me a dress rehearsal. I never filed legal seperation so I can't say.

But if I had and I had moved out as well more than likely I would seek female companionship within reasonable boundaries.

If there was a spark I might have followed up I can't say.

But I veiw legal seperation as a trial period. And part of that trial involves the possibility of exploring feelings for others of the opposite sex. At least in my book its the purpose of legal seperation the last step before a divorce. It allows both directions to be pursued and I interpret that as being the reason for a legal seperation.

zm, a few thoughts/observations for what they are worth.

First, your annoyed reaction to some of the posts suggests you are doubleminded (about this)yourself. If you are secure you weren't in an EA, and so forth, those comments wouldn't bother you, yet you are bothered and respond defensively. Whether you are or are not an ow by some arbitray set of rules really isn't the issue anyways...by your account they were essentially divorced...so no foul in terms of being an interloper...however, you are a AW (another woman) even if not a OW. What you have discovered (the hard way) is until someone is truly "done" one becomes the op by default. That means you have second class status, and are subject to being dumped, often summarily IF the primary relationship heats back up. That is why one NEVER dates someone who has not moved on....and there is no way one can concoct a condition that one still married has moved on....just cannot be done, the stakes, and emotional connections are just way way too high......

Ok, so you "believed" him, and you are not technically the ow, thinking despite legalities, you were both free agents. That was a fair assumption, but a very high risk assumption. IMO this was the best thing that could happen to you

1. It has taught you a valuable lesson about assessing relationship material.....that being do not date anyone who is currently, or recently involved in a breakup of a substantial relationship (married or not)...that includes a personal assemssment of yourself as well...don't date until some time has passed.

2. Like it or not, you now know you were used. This man had no real intent to pursue a healthy relationship with you...he simply talked a good line (whether purposefully, or just ignorantly), and was attracted to having his needs met by you. It makes no difference whether he was predatory or not, the point is he is not a safe person...do you understand? So absolutely do not have any future dealings with him, regardless of whether he comes "back" to you. You have just saved yourself a substantial amount of wasted time, resources, and heartache.

3. You have also got an insight into his character....he essentially dumped you like yesterday's news...even if he "discovered" he wanted to try again with almostX, he still could have been more caring and considerate of you....he wasn't zm, and you have every right to be hurt and annoyed, you were mistreated.

4. It occurs to me you only have one side of the story. IMO it is always a good idea to make independent contact with someones X, to get verification of what they are telling you.....this can be a real eye opener on occassion. People lie ZM, they lie frequently, everything he told you could have been substantially misrepresented, or outright false. He might even have used his relationship with you to make his almostX jealous, happens all the time....in any event, I suggest you get over being mad....and thank God you got dumped, and dodged the bullet, cause that is exactly what happened, you made a poor choice, and survived.

Dear Zachery's mom.
I actually feel sorry for you because now your mind is caught in that mental obsession over another man.
Every spare minute you will be wondering about and thinking of him!

It is NOT a fun place to be and it is a very hard place to leave!

You are being advised to write a NO CONTACT letter and stop all contact with this 'man friend' forever!
And probably being advised to tell your husband of this "emotional/intimately passionate in conversation's affair" as well as his wife .
More than likely, YOU have given this advice to others since you were origianlly the BS.

Hopefully from this experience, you will be able to help many people here because you will now have an understanding and an empathy for the BS and the WS.

And hopefully, you will be able to work things out with your husband and find the love you had when you married one another.
It is there, deeply hidden!

If you get a chance read the message I wrote in Sally's post. (Happy Holidays Guys!)
It was not written by me but by a very wise person
Love, Sarah

<small>[ January 05, 2004, 06:46 AM: Message edited by: Sarie ]</small>

Thanks again for the advice...Sorry for my defensiveness last evening but I felt I was being attacked and judged when I wasn't looking for advice on the moral issue of legal divorce and whether I was really the other woman.

ML, you are right, I made the conscious choice to date a man who may not have been over his marriage, we all take that risk when we enter into ANY relationship. My intention is not to paint myself as the victim at all. I just stated my hurt over being treated like I didn't count, in some people's mind, I know I don't, but that is not how I felt. I am not looking to place blame on anyone, I think the misunderstanding is that I came on this website looking for someone to back me up in going after this man. I have stepped away, wished him the best of luck and am moving on, whether people feel I should or not, I needed to say my peace to him, and in no way begged, pleaded or professed my love to him. If you want to read the letter I will gladly send it....One thing I agree with, I may have used poor judgement in trusting someone and perhaps having a different opinion on the legalities of separation. Although I think you said some harsh things ML, there are things that did hit home with me as well...


Jph, I appreciate your thoughts, and no I don't see myself as the other woman, the minute he chose to go back to his W we ended our friendship, and our friendship started well after their separation that she wanted. We obviously have 2 different definitions of this.

Stunned Dad, yes he was legally separated and had purchased their home from her, they have no children so that was non issue. We could battle out the moral issue of legal divorce vs separation and it does come down to a matter of opinion. To some people i am the WS now,as I am still legally married only because the D is in process. I have been separated for 16 months now, so again that is a matter of opinion.

sufdb-THANK YOU, I agree with what you are saying about AW more so than OW, yes I took extreme offense to being call the OW, because I have been there, his W was not the BS, she was in her own R and walked away from the M. I took it to heart.
Lessons learned? You are right, unfortunately my trusting nature is not the same, you can't take someone at their word, ask to see legal papers in order to have some assurance that they have "moved on". I took a dumb stupid risk, one that, although I tried to be prepared for anything, obviously wasn't. Please remember I am not sitting bashing him saying "how could he do this to me", my original anger at him only came from him not respecting by talking to me face to face/one on one. My question on here is more of a general nature, but as ML stated only the 2 people involved know that. I am a huge advocate for marriage, I have put myself through the ringer trying to reconcile with my H, but I had to finally figure out myself when I had enough.


Sarie, thanks for writing, but I don't see where you believe I have a mental obsession? I thought that I deserved a dignified conversation about his returning to his wife-end of story. Not just "we need to talk-there's lots going on", then nothing. There is no reason to write a NC letter as we are not having contact with each other. We exchanged words on Saturday about something that has nothing to do with this, and I sent him an e-mail only explaining why I was angry and I wanted him to understand that, BUT that I hope he finds happiness and all that, best of luck etc. My personality is that of someone who needs to make amends with people, no matter what. Is that something I would like to change?-for sure, I wish I could just say "screw you" and move on. I am like that with anything....I owe my H nothing, but he did know about "John", he himself has been dating people on and off. I did tell him because I have no reason to keep secrets, not because I owed him anything. And I will not tell his W, that is up to "John", again she walked out on him and was dating, so what he did is for them to figure out what they want to know. Thank you for your thoughts on me and my H, but there is no hope there and I am finally ok with that. He is not a person I want to be married to anymore.

Can you supply me the link on Sally's post or the subject?

Again, thank you for the advice that has been given, I don't come on here to hear only I want to hear, I know there are different opinions, I only felt judged rather harshly by some for something that I wasn't looking to justify. I have learned a valuable lesson in all this, believe me......

<small>[ January 05, 2004, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: zacharysmom ]</small>

ZM

I don't think anyone here means to judge you, it is not for us to do so. I do understand how some of the comments may have upset you, but as ever with MB, take what you find useful and leave the rest.

I think sufdb made some very good comments, and if it were me, I would take quite a lot from that. Do you feel disappointed with yourself, because John told you categorically that there was no hope of reconciliation but that is what happened? Sometimes, we believe people - want to so much, and they let us down. That is the bottom line.

I don't think your original quesiton of "when is enough enough" one with an answer. I think you are right. The two people concerned may think enough, but something (be it love, be it duty, whatever) will keep it going. Who knows.

I am sorry John has hurt you. I also think you should leave it now. John owes you nothing, and the more you try and find out, the more you try and get your answers, the worse it will become for you. Right now, he's not wanting to talk or give answers, because (for whatever reason), he is working on things with his W. It will play on your mind constantly if you keep trying to work things out and will do you no good. Know that you did your best, honestly, in this situation, but that it wasn't meant to be.

I know MB is a pro-M web-site, but I don't always agree with all of the principles, and that one size fits all. If he had separated, financially as well etc. I can understand how you would have believed him. I can understand how you could become involved. In other places, people would say "He was separated, split up, not going back with his W, of course ZM could date him". At the end of the day, none of it really matters, it is what you do now and how you deal with it that is important.

Wishing you well from London

Lisa

Thanks LIL, I appreciate your words, I am taking the advice that sufdb has given me and really looking hard at it.....

I have left it alone, as much as it hurts, I needed to send the e-mail to him on Saturday for my own satisfaction,whether it was right or wrong, there was something I needed to say, hopefully he has learned a lesson in this as well, but I am leaving him alone and respecting the decision he made.

Thanks again for your words....

<small>[ January 05, 2004, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: zacharysmom ]</small>

Hi ZM.
This quote is from your topic message.

"I sent him an e-mail today explaining how hurt I had felt, and just want to know if he was putting me on about his feelings for me etc, how I truly cherished our friendship, and hope the best for him.

Now the question....Am I wrong in thinking this M won't work? That maybe he and I did have a real connection? Am I wrong in hoping to some degree that it doesn't work? She left him for several reasons, he thinks she may have even been cheating (I think she came back maybe because her A ended and now she is lonely). There is a lot of detail about their R and ours but I would be here forever. I am just wondering when is enough-enough and you do find that person, is it wrong to move forward with someone other than your S?"

I do not have the answer for the above; my WH and I worked things out: I forgave him and gave him lots of love and affection!

It kinda sounds like you hope his marriage fizzles and that he comes back to you, is that right? And who knows, maybe it WILL happen!
Do you want him back?

What I was wondering was, did you get an e-mail reply from the OM?
Is his e-mail address a joint e-mail account that his wife could read?

Would you mind sharing with us what you wrote in the e-mail to him?
(Of course it may be too personal, but since we are strangers, we might give an objective responce!)
Love, Julie

<small>[ January 05, 2004, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

Dear Blessed, I think a part of me was hoping it wouldn't work maybe for my own selfish reasons so I wouldn't feel like I was lied to, a part truly truly hopes this is what works for him. Would I take him back? Not sure, I don't think I would right away, we had an incredible friendship and I think I would need him to know that I couldn't move forward again until he works his things out, then maybe.

I didn't get a response, and haven't expected one, hoping maybe, but not expecting(I said what I had to say, now I am done). I will share with you but I am not posting it on this site to have it torn apart (sorry!) but if you want to give me your email address i will forward it.

Thanks,
D

Also, it is his own personal work computer that the e-mail was sent to, if I had any thought that she could get ahold of it, I wouldn't have sent it. When I was calling him about some $ he owed me, I made sure to only call his cell that he was away with as opposed to his home #. That is up to him to tell her if she doesn't already know.

ZM - I would chalk this up as a painful, painful lesson learned.

I knew when my marriage was done - by the time I moved into another room and said "I want a divorce" there was no repair possible. Vows were over, marriage was over, and the divorce decree really meant nothing beyond a technicality. At that point, I felt free to pursue other relationships if I so chose, and could do so with a clean conscience.

My thought in reading through this is that you may have interpreted or believed that his self-knowledge was the same as yours. Here's what I mean: you knew when your marriage was done, when you had tried the last try. I think it's natural for you to assume that he meant the same thing when he said he was at the same place. Obviously, he didn't.

Do I think he owed you more than a terse "no contact" email? Yeah, I do. You had a loving, honest (on your part anyway) relationship and it's painful to see him less committed. From the marriage perspective, though, we all know that if he is going to try again, I have to believe his wife would want a short, terse no contact letter. He's made his decision very clear. As painful as it is, I would honor his no contact, write him off and not look back.

Whether he makes his marriage work or not, I don't think I would want to be in a relationship with someone who could write me off as easily as he dropped you, regardless of whether he was doing the right thing or not.

K

Yes, I will give you my e-mail address.
It is rather odd but we are farmers!

farmerjoe20012002@yahoo.com

I had the following written in my journal and thought I would share it with you.

"Trying to find ways to fix or get back a relationship you know in your heart is over is like going to an empty cupboard hoping that instead of a few crumbs you'll find a big fat loaf there.

You won't, and as long as you're going back to that cupboard you won't see the deliciously full one just around the corner.
Close the door on it and walk away."

I don't know if that message pertains to your husband or your friend; but that would be something only your heart has the answer to.

I am sure you look at your husband's affair a little differently, now that you have felt this tremendous temptation with this man friend of yours.
(And how it affects your thoughts even now.)

By the way, from what you have told us about your friendship with this man; I feel 99.9 % certain that you will hear from him again!
He may even want you to be his 'honey' on the side, but I am sure that you have too much self- respect and would absolutely say "NO" to that request!

Hang in there....Give it time.
That is why I came up with the ID Blessed TIME because that is what it is!
(Very healing of past hurts!)
Love, Julie

<small>[ January 05, 2004, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

KS, thank you...you are right, my thought was that he was more clearly over his marriage than I was of my own at the time we even became just friends....I stated the first night we met the likelyhood that I would take my H back was high, he was however very adament that he wouldn't, she had done way too much, so I believed him.

I am not even sure if his wife knows about me, she and he didn't have much conversation other than technicalities about house etc. She didn't ask, he didn't offer (I don't necessarily agree with that though). As for his decision, I have honored it, he never stated no contact to me though, when he sent me the quick note he told me to call him that night if I wanted to chat, that is what started to make me angry was then he screened my calls....My e-mail was my way to feel better and say goodbye...


Blessed time-nice quote-very fitting, this is definitely how I felt about my marriage when I realized it was over....As for my H's A, I actually had a very good understanding about it from the start, I accepted my responsibility in the deterioration of our marriage (don't agree with how he handled it), but he is the only one who wants blame.

You can guarantee I will never be anyone's honey on the side, I wouldn't let him pursue a friendship with me as long as he is married for sure.....

Thanks to both of you for you kind words and understanding....

Thanks to all the advice thus far..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (Good or bad).....

Just wanted to share his response, I received it about half hour ago, and whether you agree with it or not, I feel so much better. If nothing else my judgement of people is not completely gone....
"I sent your check out in this mornings mail. And to answer your question, yes my feelings were genuine and likely won't easily go away or be forgotten, why do you think it was so hard for me to tell you what was going on. I'm certainly not angry with you by any means. However, like I said before. If I'm going to try and make it work with Sherri, I need to be 100% committed to that, which unfortunately means cutting off my communication with you, for obvious reasons. I'm aware that I may have made the biggest mistake of my life, but that will be mine to wear if it turns out that way. You are a good person and deserve to be with a good man.

Take care of yourself."

That was the closure I needed.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi.
I am SO glad, for your peace of mind, that you received a reply with an explanation.

And yes you now know you didn't judge him wrong and yes you will miss your conversations with him.

I think us that were betrayed by our spouses are more vunerable when someone shows us attention, affection, and makes us feel special.
(After feeling rejected!)

I answered your e-mail but when I put a cute little hot bar animation, I lost it the message,
(error report thingy) so will answer here.

Your note to him was fine; you were expressing your feelings and you did need to understand why he seemed to suddenly change .

Do you think you will answer this e-mail from him?
If so, it probably should just be a sentence or two.
Sometimes the short messages are better remembered than longer ones.

We all care about you and hope you get that big fat loaf!
You deserve more than crumbs.
Love, Julie

P.S.Once a special man friend told me "A smile happens in a flash and sometimes the memory of it lasts a lifetime."
That was told to me in 1980 and I still remember swapping big friendly smiles with this fellow!
I can see clearly in my mind him smiling at me!

Hopefully, your friend can remember you with a smile! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ January 05, 2004, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

Blessed, thank you, yes I did respond, here it is:
"I appreciate your response....Take care of you...and you are a good man.....

I hope the best for you.....
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> D"

He sent me a smile, end of story...time to move one...He did make me feel great after a very long time of rejection in marriage and separation, that was a high for me, but please know, I have EVERY intention of respecting his decision....

Thanks for your response....

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> -rh-

Thanks for the smiles Redhat!!!

D <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> -back at you..

ZM - could I ask you if you would e-mail me there is something I would like to ask you?

I am glad you got your closure. You have been through enough pain with your H's A to start being pained with anything else. Are you feeling OK now? I do hope so. How I wish we could just turn our feelings off - it would be so easy.

I will delete this once I know you have got it. I really would appreciate a personal chat!!!

Many thanks and wishing you well.

Lisa

<small>[ January 08, 2004, 02:42 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>