Do you know someone who has an insatiable need to be in the superior position. Is it your partner? Is it you?<P>This is step #5 in The Choosing to Forgive Workbook by Les Carter & Frank Minirth that wasstubborn & I were both reading and decided to discuss. Everyone is welcome. <P>This chapter could be related to the last step about bounderies. I think in some ways this is related because if this is a problem, it makes bounderies more difficult.<P>Thankfully in my own married life, this is not a problem. So maybe I'll have a better perspective than I did in the last step where I struggle.<P>Sooo...you may be affected by the lack of equality if..<P>* I get rebuttals when I attempt to discuss problems or concerns.<P>* Others try to motivate me with guilt.<P>* Many times others will not accept my feelings as legitimate.<P>* Too often I feel like I'm the only one being flexible or cooperative.<P>* People do not like when I choose my own way.<P>* Key people in my life seem incapable of change.<P>* The one who wronged me has a haughty spirit.<P>* I am amazed at how insensitive others can be.<P>* I've struggled with people who disregard truth or twist facts to suit their case. <P>* People who have let me down portray themselves as upright and fair.<P>* People who have harmed me are known for being critical.<P>* The wrongdoers in my life seem to huger for power and control.<P>If you checked six or more you may be caught in a game of one-upmanship. If you are trying to forgive, it may be more difficult if you are reminded of your lowly status in the eyes of the wrongdoer.<P>Since this is a Christian book, the main idea is we all have equal worth in God's eyes...so we can remember that when people try to make us feel inferior, but also remember that and not elevate our own worth by seeing ourselves or trying to show others we are superior.<P>Some of us may need to go back to our childhood and examine what we were taught, because sadly some of these lessons were taught to us by trouble parents in our childhood and are perpetuated in our adult lives.<P>Even when we spot the superiortity game, you may be only in control of your own response to it. Communication in hopes of changing the "superior" minded person are not likely to produce the results you want. They may never change, but we can.<P>During early development there are two ways general ways in which people respond to feelings of inferiority:<P>1. They take or believe the inferior position.<BR>2. They try to find ways to feel superior.<P>You may have taken the inferior position if you:<BR>*Are too easily motivated by guilt and duty.<BR>*You feel you have to explain yourself thouroughly<BR>*You work too hard to justify yourself.<BR>*Your feeling of stability lasts as long as you are approved by others<BR>*You apologize for things that don't require an apology.<BR>*You adjust your behavior based on the possible judgments you might receive.<BR>*You use the word CAN'T frequently<BR>*You somehow let people dominate or manipulate you.<BR>*You try to hard to please people<P>You may switch at times to the superior position or you may see the following in the person trying to make him/herself superior.<P>*You cling to judgmental thoughts and feelings.<BR>*Your communication is an effort to outargue or persuade.<BR>*You punish people with silence or withdrawal.<BR>*You hold on to grudges, not letting go of pain or hurt that may have originally been legit.<BR>*You prove yourself by being an overachiever.<BR>*You won't accept any input about how you may be in error.<BR>*You can tear to shreds another person's reasoning.<BR>*You develop patterns of stubbornness or hardheadedness.<P>Attempting the superior position will hinder forgiveness, too.<P>So it is possible to get caught in the cycle of feeling inferior, then striving to be superior by elevating yourself above your wrongdoer, and getting nowhere in the forgiveness department. Superiority is false compensation for feelings of inferiority.<P>The first step is considering that you are not inferior or superior to anyone. God's plan is for equality. We are different in skills and gifts, we are all equally valued by God and we all equally in need of God's mercy and it follows we should value each other as equal in worth.<P>Forgiveness can only occur as you do not repay evil with evil.<P>Four key insights are set out to consider<BR>1. Understand your worth is from God, not humans.<BR>2. Sidestep invitations for False Guilt.<BR>3. Learn to detach from others' phychological games.<BR>4. Learn to comunicate as an equal, even when others won't.<P>1. Understand your worth...<BR>When our wrongdoer makes us feel inferior, it is hard to move forward in forgiveness. God sees us as precious, the words and actions of others do not change how God feels about us. Humans can deter us from seeing that, but they cannot change the truth. So remember this when others are trying to make you feel inferior.<P>2. Sidestep False Guilt. When you or accept blame for someone else's wrong, you may have simmering anger or misplaced guilt and/or desire for revenge...all inhibiting forgiveness. Even if you can pinpoint mistakes you made in association with another's wrongdoing, let God forgive you and move forward. If you let go of guilt that was never yours in the first place, you are more free to forgive.<P>3. Practice Delicate Detachment. (Here is that detachment issue than confused us in bounderies in the context of marriage, but here it goes.) When you remain in the inferiority-superiority struggle, you remain attatched. When the wrongdoer persists in rejection or is not fully repentant, this attatchment results in emotional turbulence. When a person persists in holding themselves superior, resist temptation to respond in kind. (Of course it would be challenging to try to achieve intamacy in marriage when this is the situation, therein lies the confusion.)<P>4. Communicate as an equal. Sidestep invitations for agumentative exchanges. Think of examples of how you can respond that would indicate your view of yourself as an equal, not a subordinate. Remember that others' immaturity does not mandate your misery. In the best case you will be able to work with the other in making positive adjustments, but refuse to play psychological games that have only losers.<P>So there it is...now lets discuss and debate...as equals of course! <P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hmmmmm... Very Interesting ! Okay, I admit my mind is mush this week after a turbulent last weekend - but.... here goes.<P>I can say I am in an unequal relationship with my husband.... do I feel superior or inferior - I think he feels superior, but I don't feel superior or inferior..... I think he's in his own little game that I don't want to play.. And it seems that if I don't play the game I don't get positive interaction - just negative - no connectiveness....<P>Do you understand where I'm coming from? I may need extra help here, remember I'm Mrs. Mush4Brains this week.

Thank you FHL!I think this is a very important chapter for all of us.<BR>it not only helps us to understand how we feel but how our spouse feels as well.<P>I think that in my case, my H does feel inferior because he recognizes the wrongs that he has done. He is devastated at the loss of his integrity. His reaction however is to justify in order to feel less inferior.<BR>So I see it as my job to help him through this. His justifications may hurt me but if I understand the reasoning behind them, we may get through the.<P>In my own case I need to stop apologizing for the things that are not my fault. My H tells me this constantly. so the whole equality thing can get very complicated if both partners are feeling inferior but reacting differently.<P>We need to both look at each other as equals if we can and become partners. My main goal in this marriage!

Trustntruth, I thought a lot about you while relating this chapter. I think you got it right, and I am glad to hear you see it for what it is and are not tempted to play.<P>Your H sounds like he can be nice, even romantic and touching when all is going well in his world, but can shut it off like a faucet when things do not go according to his own plan.<P>Is there anything in either of your backrounds that perpetuate this? Is your H's superiority based on conpensation for inferiority or did people in his life or his own abilities make him feel so "special" that he is entitiled to his special status in his own mind?<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

wasstubborn,<BR>You are right about this being complicated. Both partners can engage in this. Both can flip flop. Both are affected by their own pasts and the what feelings of inferiority/superiority they bring with them into the marriage. It probibly has an effect on who we choose as our partners, and not necessarily in a positive way.<P>So why do you think you take on blame or apologize for unnecessary things?<P>Although I really am not affected much by this, my own tendancy is to take on someone else's problems because maybe I think I am better equipted to handle them. I don't think I feel superior. I was taught to live in joyful service to one another even if it meant putting myself last. On the other hand I grew up an only child in a loving stable family with extended family and many friends always making me feel loved and special. Maybe that was the perfect balance.<P>I do think you have defined things, but do you think you are trying too hard in managing your H's recovery? Maybe you have some "downs" because you feel accountable but have no real control for your H's thoughts, feelings and actions?<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

H background - He grew up in a very poor family, with uneducated and alcoholic parents. His dad was/is an infidel that drove a truck and would be gone for a month at a time. Mom didn't have much money to feed 7 kids - and many times they would catch pigeons to eat, and eat plum soup for days on end, because dad was so selfish. Mom would iron for neighbors to buy food or pay the rent. FIL abused MIL, although my husband doesn't remember - but all his sisters remember.<P>My husband had an imaginary world in which he lived - to overcome, imo. He always used to say to everyone as a child that when he grew up he was going to have a 50 Thousand dollar house and a blue corvettte. <P>My husband has been a saver, planner and hard worker. He has been successful, unsuccessful and in between. He cannot stand to not have his hair not cut, refuses to look less than a cut above - and is very arrogant.<P>I can see where his inferior feelings have motivated him to behave in a superior mode.<P>I am an Adult child of an alcoholic, with a sheltered background. My parents hid their alcoholic lifestyle from my sister and I, and often abandoned and left us neglected. <P>I don't feel inferior or superior, I am happy with the person I turned out to be - and happy with who my sister is too. I think my older kids (25,22, and 19 going on 20) are the most terrific kids - with good morals and good heads. I think I have been an overcomer, not just a survivor. My husband on the other hand, has been a survivor.<P>

When I read this, I know by the grace of God alone, I have lead a blessed and almost charmed life.<P>Trustntruth, what made the difference in you? Did your H's father abuse him? Did his sisters and Mom give him special treatment because he was the male, or youngest that may have fed the warped superiority thing?<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

It doesn't seem that they treat him any more special, at least in current times. But in retrospect, there have been comments by his sisters that MIL thinks the boys are perfect. And, some comment she made a month or so ago was gender preference to the "boys", and I had to counteract that comment to my 6 year old son - that girls are just as special and just as important as boys.<P>So, maybe because he was a boy he was put on a pedestal? I never thought about this before. Coming from a family with only 2 girls - I guess I never realized this could be so profound in other families. <P>What probably helped me, is going to a Christian school. I knew instinctively that my mom and dad's lifestyle was wrong, and I was ashamed of that for many years. But, I think I overcame because I love them regardless, and have chose to accept and be content in my relationship with my parents. I guess I even understood it, and decided to love them just the way they were. I knew there were many good things about my parents and our life, and appreciated this very much. I also decided that I didn't want that lifestyle for myself or my children, so I refused to condone it by participating with my parents when I became an adult. I guess I took the role of maybe the morality leader in my family, and I think my faith in God gave me hope that this someday would change and end in our family. My parents quit drinking maybe 15 years ago, so I guess that helped me remain hopeful and it hasn't creeped up in me or my children - so maybe that was the end of the line for the alcoholic lifestyle. <P>I guess I just always believed in myself, and had a faith and hope that kept me persevering and positive. My husband hasn't had that opportunity.

FHL<BR>My constant apologizing comes from childhood. Definitely.<BR>My older brother had a serious eye injury when we were young.<BR>My mother naturally gave him more attention. He had a very bad temper and it seemed that when he lost his temper it was always my fault. I was supposed to be perfect so as not to upset him. This was my mother's reaction to her guilt over his accident. I played right along. I was only 6 years old when it happened and didn't know better. Not blaming my parents, just recognizing how things developed.<BR>So now I need to work on it.<BR>Yes I do concentrate too much on my H's recovery. I'm very good at telling others to take care of themselves but not very good at practicing what I preach. Part of my past again? Caring more for others?

Did FIL abuse H? Emotionally. FIL did molest all of his sister's (H's aunts -FIL was the oldest.) I do know of one of my H sister's that he molested. <P>The MIL abused his sisters. I don't know much about my husband's childhood, odviously - from him. He can't remember. His sisters are my source of information. My husband lived in a fantasy world, totally self absorbed - maybe to insulate himself from the pain of his family's problems.<P>He has regressed terribly in the last 3 years that he has lived around them, also. Maybe comforted in pain? Maybe an unconscious desire to truly overcome - by choosing to live so close to them? It hurts him very much that his family is jealous of him. He tries to be so simple, but he is so complex.

thanks fhl!!! <BR>This is a great chapter, and one I had to print off for later tonight. H is gone, so I may have time to concentrate? <BR>Maybe I am being critical, but I see some of this behavior on this forum!! Yes, I will go back and read the cures for criticism, I promise! <BR>Not sure yet where it fits into my marriage and family, but will report back. Thanks again, cl

OK...I just skrewed up submitting my response. Try again.<P>Trustntruth. So could it be that your H was given the message that boys are preferred, but needs approval, especially from woman who gave him the only approval he experienced in childhood, yet he sees women as somehow OK to control or abuse because of the mixed message he recieved? He did not see dad respecting women or his mom respecting women. Did he change drastically since you were married, or did you think you could help him? Did his strong personality and success attract you because of your own past?<P>WS...I know the feeling of trying to be perfect, but didn't think of it in this context. I was always trying to be the perfect daughter, because I have no actual proof of this, but I think I suspected, that my parents just wouldn't tolerate a major disappointment. I was expected to be a joy and never a disappointment. So maybe I took this into my marriage with me. Maybe I expect my H to see me in this way as well and perform accordingly whether it is true or not. However, I know my H values self sufficiency and efficiency, and my best areas are mental and emotional, so I think I feel inferior in some areas and may actually sabbotage my own efforts to improve domestically or mechanically because of fear of being a disappointment. So if I move slowly, but never quite achieve, I can point to my small successes and pride myself in trying, not risking disappointment if I go all out and fail.<P>Hmm...I'm nuttier than I thought.<P>WS...since you can see these things, what can you do to short circuit this habit in your own brain?<P>You know we think you are wonderful and Wonder Woman just because you are you. How can you believe that and let other's reactions to you be their's to deal with instead of your problem?<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So could it be that your H was given the message that boys are preferred, but needs approval, especially from woman who gave him the only approval he experienced in childhood, yet he sees women as somehow OK to control or abuse because of the mixed message he recieved? He did not see dad respecting women or his mom respecting women.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think we got it!! No wonder he's so complex.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Did he change drastically since you were married,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes. He was Mr. Wonderful, he was so truthful, so honest, and so protective. He shared my values and goals, and was spiritual.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>or did you think you could help him? Did his strong personality and success attract you because of your own past?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, I was impressed with his ambition, his high goals, his "can do" personality, and his commitment to fidelity after his spiritual awakening. I never saw a controlling side to him. We had not had any disagreements, we almost read each other's minds. It was a connection that I longed for, and I truly respected and admired him. He didn't drink, he didn't appear materialistic, just seemed like a nice guy. Married him right away.... (whoops!)<P>Could it be that because of my past I was more attracted to him? I would say so. He appeared to be just what I wanted in a man.<P>I didn't see a strong personality - in that he was dominating. He seemed so different. I realize now that this is part of the charm that an abusive person develops - and boy did I fall for it. <P>I was in a lot of conflict with my x husband at that time (just finished a custody case that lasted 3 years and $20K in debt) So, probably my husband's performance seemed an answer to all my problems. My 2nd chance at marriage and family. (whoops.)<P>Did I think I could help him? Yes - I guess my need to "fix" - I knew I could help him in his career, and I put a lot of energy into his business, and at helping him parent. <P>His first emotional outburst was when his daughter (diabetic) missed the bus and I let her walk to school. I was accused of wanting her "dead".<P>His first physical abuse was in our office, when he got angry and threw liquid paper at me. <P>I knew what I had married with the first emotional outburst incident - and he begged me to stay with him afterwards - and I did. <p>[This message has been edited by trustntruth (edited September 15, 1999).]

FHL<BR>I'm definitely going to have to review this thread and that chapter.<BR>What can I do to short circuit this? Good question? I can analyze everything but I can't fix it.<BR>Remedial again!!!!<BR>I've been lying down all day as H ordered since I overdid it yesterday. <BR>Now I had better reread the chapter. When I read it the first time I spent most of my time trying to figure out how to help him. Hmmmm is that a sign? That was the first thing I thought of after discovery too. So I am just way too much of a caregiver. How does that relate to equality. Maybe I need to look at H as equal and able to take care of himself. But what if he doesn't act that way? <BR>I'm getting more confused!

WS - FHL<P>Okay I guess it is the same for me... I can analyze to death, but not fix it. <P>Is that it? I do not get caught up in inferior/superior games, and bow out? Let them be equally responsible for their share of the interaction - they fix themselves? And we just work on ourselves?<P>

tnt<BR>I think that's the answer.<BR>We need to work on ourselves and stop trying to fix everything else.<BR>I think there is a part on delicate detachment that I must go reread.<BR>We can really only do something about ourselves. We can encourage the spouse but we need to concentrate on what we can realistically do for ourselves in order to perceive each other as equals. Now we need to figure out hos to do that.<BR>Are we getting back to my old favorite ACCEPTANCE?

OH MY GOD - Another one that's totally me!!!!!! <P>That's it ------Just shoot me now!!!<P>Not only H but (especially now) so many people just dismiss what I say. Mostly cuz they think I'm daffy for doing all this stuff - they don't get that I am learning and growing!!!<P>No wonder why I can't get the boundaries - I don't count so why do I need boundaries!!!!!<P>Oh - this is not good.........<P>

Hello ladies and gents,<BR>First-Sheba, if we were going to shoot you we would have done it a long time ago girl!! Here we have witnessed, first-hand, the great strides you have made and you want what?! Sorry, we want to see more sheba, we want to watch you grow!! <BR>This is interesting<BR>2. Sidestep False Guilt. When you or accept blame for someone else's wrong, you may have simmering anger or misplaced guilt and/or desire for revenge...all inhibiting forgiveness. Even if you can pinpoint mistakes you made in association with another's wrongdoing, let God forgive you and move forward. If you let go of guilt that was never yours in the first place, you are more free to forgive.<BR>Help me with this please!! I can understand how misplaced guilt inhibits forgiveness, but can not quite put this into practice.<BR>

Trustntruth...if his childhood is dictating his behavior then he needs your adoration but he doesn't women as equals to respect. No wonder he sees so much as an attack. Yes, I think you need to work on your responses and take care of yourself and your son.<P>WS...I'm proud of your H for sending you to bed. That's a good sign. My personal opinion is over the years you probibly saved him many times from consequences from his own actions. It may be difficult to let him be responsible for his own actions, but after a few failures, he may step up to the plate and surprise you.<P>Sheba...breath into a bag...I think you are hyperventalating. You are growing and learning...and the people who think you are daffy do not have your depth.<P>cl...I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying you take on some of the guilt for your H and that is bogging you down? Please clarify.<P>And for me. I can analyze too, but fix? I'm trying, but it gets so personal, doesn't it?<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

hi all,<BR>FHL, I am not sure if I take on the guilt or not...just trying to figure out if I might be doing that and it inhibits my forgiveness process. <BR>I like to think I do not-after all waht sort of strong self-assured woman takes on this misplaced guilt! <BR>But I might just be doing a bit of that. For instance H's illness: he was quite ill, and went to many docs since no one seemed to be able to diagnose. Lots of different drugs, tests, etc., with nothing working. Of course I felt guilt since I should have seen it sooner and provided the proper diagnosis and treatment. May have saved some permanent scarring and decreased need for surgery he faces next month. So in a strange sense I have accepted some of the responsibility for extending his physical pain, therefore accepting some of the guilt associates with the illness and his infidelity? <BR>Oh boy....I guess I never thought of this before. Makes my stomach sort of in a knot-sort of feels weak and vulnerable. <BR>I think I do need to step away from this guilt. It is not mine-it does not belong to me at all! <BR>WS, I have to agree with fhl that you have rescued your h for many yrs, allowing him to be less than responsible. This is not to say there is any blame. I think that women have a real tendency to do this from out primal families and societal expectations. It is refreshing to hear that he is coming around. Every little thing should be noticed, and we should keep being thankful for all those niceties in life. He showed great care and consideration where there had previously been little!! He is not a total dufus after all?!