Sarie

Step one completed. I am glad your H is willing to work at rebuilidng your M.

Now, have you send OM a NC letter, or are you still in touch with him? If you are, your protestations of making your M work and committing to your H are meaningless, and deep down, you know that don't you.

Let me know.

BTW, I don't romanticise my R with OM, as you suggested on another thread. I knew it was wrong. I knew it was going nowhere. That doesn't mean that the feelings I had for him were not real. They were. But my true feelings post d-day were of shame, guilt, a burning desire to find out how I could have gone so badly wrong. And remorse - I hated myself. I looked in the mirror and I didn't recongise the person who looked back. She wasn't Lisa, she wasn't bad, she was just a stranger - a stranger who lied, cheated, twisted, manipulated and crushed her H.

What about you Sarie - do you feel remorse? Do you recognise the person who looks at you in the mirror. Did you tell your H the A went on for 10 years?

I applaud you for making a step in the right direction, but you have a long way to go, and I sincerely hope you carry on.

Wishing you well from London.

Lisa

how many such emails, letters, etc do you have still? does your husband know about them? what do you plan to do with them?

Sarah keeping e-mails or letters from the OM forever ties you to him and hinders you withdrawl and marital recovery. Please get rid of them otherwise all your hard earned efforts will amount to nothing more than a sisyphean endeavor.

Sarie:

Before reading on through the rest of this thread, I wanted 2 comment on this statement of yours:

"I told my husband the truth, however, I did not tell him how much I grieve for the lost friendship of this OM."

You were truthful, but you weren't honest. By giving him the facts, you were telling him the truth. But by witholding your feelings, you were being dishonest with him.

It will be painful for him 2 hear how much you care for the OM, but absolutely necessary for him 2 help you heal, if that's what he wants. If he wants 2 sweep the past under the rug, your M will never recover.

-2long

Dear 2 long.
I think you would be AMAZED at how many emotional feelings the WS withholds from her (or his) BS.

That is one place our mates cannot see, our thoughts. (Thankfully)

Too much coffee man.
That is the ONLY note I saved.
It is important to me, although I could delete it or burn it but it is memorized inside my mind, probably forever!

I shouldn't admit it but he does call me once a month in a friendly manner. No past lovemaking talk or reviewing special memories; (well some actually, we have a lot of history together) but mostly just to see how I am doing.
I tell him I am happy to be on the right path with a clear conscience and peace of mind.
I told him my husband knows and we are trying to make our marriage the best it can be.

I do not tell him how much I miss him, I want him to be happy with his 'princess'. (They are both 62 years old, I am 54 years old.)
Love, Sarah

<small>[ January 19, 2004, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Sarie ]</small>

Sarie:

"Dear 2 long.
I think you would be AMAZED at how many emotional feelings the WS withholds from her (or his) BS.
That is one place our mates cannot see, our thoughts. (Thankfully)"

This is absolutely, 100% INCORRECT. I can 'see' my FWW's thoughts. They're in her actions. Everything she does. Everything she says. She does still try 2 withold some of her thoughts from me, as do I from her. These walls absolutely MUST be torn down, or true intimacy will be forever out of our (your) reach. Don't be so thankful that the wall remains intact. It will be your ruin yet.

-2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sarie:
I shouldn't admit it but he does call me once a month in a friendly manner. No past lovemaking talk or reviewing special memories; (well some actually, we have a lot of history together) but mostly just to see how I am doing.
I tell him I am happy to be on the right path with a clear conscience and peace of mind.
I told him my husband knows and we are trying to make our marriage the best it can be.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">these things cannot co-exist. with continued contact, your marriage cannot be the best it can be.

draft a no-contact letter with your husband and send it to om. leave out the milquetoaste, fluffy stuff and inform om--quite clearly--that he is to never contact you again.

Sarie:

"He has now found someone who he can share his life with since he could NOT have me for keeps as I would NEVER leave my husband."

He didn't need you "for keeps", he had you on long-term loan, only your H wasn't shown the decency of being asked if it bothered him or not. You KNEW it would hurt him, so you chose 2 lie 2 him rather than truly protect him like you promised you would 35 years ago.

From your quote of the OM's email (which I agree you should TRASH immediately), I can see how unhealthy an individual he really is, and how cruel he is 2ward his new GF. This man does NOT need someone 2 help him not be alone right now, he needs 2 learn the difference between being alone and being lonely. Because, until he can be a healthy individual on his own, he can't be truly committed 2 anyone else.

Getting him 2 a healthy emotional state is NOT your concern, though. You can have no positive influence on his life other than going NC and staying there. 2 much damage has been done.

Get rid of anything you have 2 remind yourself of the OM. Emails, pictures, letters, gifts. Throw it all away.

-ol' 2long

I DO tell my husband when the OM calls.
He understands that I need a little more time to completely let go. He is a blessed man!

I tell my husband that I no longer love the OM and yes it is a LIE but one I am willing to tell to my husband.
You just don't know how much I love my husband, it is beyond words. And how I could have betrayed him, I have no reasonable answer for!
I HATE what I have done to him yet I am still not entirely off the 'drug', I am sorry to say.

I am hoping SOON I can accept NO CONTACT entirely and that will be a happy day for our marriage!

2 long, there is no way in this world that you could KNOW your wife's every thought.
It is impossible .

And my 'actions' would have never let my husband know of my affair (He didn't know until I confessed) as I have ALWAYS been kind and loving to him.
Secrets are secrets, and secret thoughts are just that, secret thoughts.
Love, Sarah

Sarah-
first, I want to commend you for continuing to be honest when you have been met with some rather harsh comments.
You left a message on my post "vent: then I went to Walmart", and I thank you for recommending that I read this post of yours. It was good for me to know that there are others that feel and think some of the same things that I have and do feel. It's good to know that these crazy thoughts and feelings can turn into recovery - that gives me hope! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
From reading all of the comments and responses here, I have also begun to look at myself and my situation from other angles, as well.
Hang in there, girl! Keep reading and posting and working at it!
SMH

also, Sarah-
I want to encourage you to be totally honest with your husband, as you have here. I have had to tell my H some very difficult things over the past few weeks... but I am so very grateful that I have. I am learning the concept of radical honesty. I am seeing that it has great value! I even told my H today that when I was hurt, angry and scared because he shared a few details (which I found unnecessary to share) with my 19 yr old daughter - my first thought was to call OM. He didn't really enjoy hearing that... but it was the truth... and after I assured him that I DIDN'T call OM even though I had wanted to, we ended up talking about how I thought OM might have responded if I had called him because H wants to understand how OM filled my needs that he hasn't been able to in the past. I am so blessed to have my H. I didn't want to hurt him by telling him what my thoughts were... but we are doing our best to stick to radical honesty... and that was the honest truth!
SMH

Sarie:

"2 long, there is no way in this world that you could KNOW your wife's every thought.
It is impossible ."

Is it? I really don't think so:

"I tell my husband that I no longer love the OM and yes it is a LIE but one I am willing to tell to my husband."

What a miserable way 2 live! And right now, your H just might be unaware that you lied 2 him, but I doubt it. Even if he is unaware, he won't be for long. For about 6 months after d-day 2 years ago, I had a hard time really knowing when my W was being truthful and honest with me and when she wasn't. But with time, I got much better at it. Not because I was getting better at "spying" or anything like that, but because we were steadily getting better at communicating - something that we had gotten very bad at over the 12 years of her A. But getting 2 this point of being able 2 understand what your S is feeling, thinking, is only possible if you can truly empathise with them - how they feel about what you do. All I'm suggesting is that you watch. It won't happen overnight, but if you are truly heading 2ward recovery, you will even2ally know what I'm talking about. Right now, you can't.

"And my 'actions' would have never let my husband know of my affair (He didn't know until I confessed) as I have ALWAYS been kind and loving to him."

But your kindness and love were insincere, because you were involved with the OM. I submit 2 you that your kindness and love 2ward your H were a smokescreen intended 2 keep him from suspecting the truth.

"Secrets are secrets, and secret thoughts are just that, secret thoughts."

You're confusing secrecy and privacy. Secrecy is lying, and with time and personal growth, your H will know you're witholding from him, assuming he chooses 2 grow from this awful experience rather than sweep it under the rug.

-ol' 2long

Actually, this thread got entirely side-tracted.
I did not want it to be about my husband and myself, not at all.

I wanted everyone to read the inspiring message written by SKM, the story of the healing of her marriage in the past years.
A remarkable heart-wearming message of repentence, forgiveness and love.

Sincerely, Sarah

<small>[ January 19, 2004, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Sarie ]</small>

Sarah I agree with how valuable SKM's posts are for those WS that need inspiration to do what is right if they hope to save and rebuild their marriage. But you should also follow her example of ending all contact with the OM. Do you think that she would have been able to rebuild her marriage if she was still in contact with her OM?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"You just don't know how much I love my husband, it is beyond words."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Words and feelings are cheap if the actions are not there to prove them. If you truly love your H then take the step to write the OM a NC(no contact) letter and have your H deliver it to the mail box. That action alone will truly show your H that your love for him is very real.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am hoping SOON I can accept NO CONTACT entirely and that will be a happy day for our marriage!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is like the drug addict or the alcoholic waiting for his addiction to end by itself so that he/she can start his/her recovery, it just isn't going to happen. Every time the OM contacts you it will just put you back to square one and your withdrawl from him will just become longer and more painful. It is for both your and your H's peace of mind and future marital happiness.

<small>[ January 19, 2004, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Sarie

You didn't answer my question directly, but you are still in contact. Recovery will not start until you instigate NC, and are totally honest with your H.

I cannot believe you could be so disrespectful to him as to continue contact with OM. It has to finish. Boot on the other foot Sally - how would you feel if your H were doing that?

I know you said you didn't want this thread to be about you and your H, but of course it is. SKM is well known to most of us "oldies" here. JL pointed me in that direction over 18 months ago - to give me hope, believe etc. that my M could be saved.

I just don't think you get it. People here want to help you if you are truly willing to help yourself. It is not about judging you (SH you are wrong). It is about feeling that we are banging our heads against a brick wall - it pains many of us (both BS and WS alike) to see someone continue to make the same mistakes over and over again - remember my thread that I started for you about my friend?

Do the decent thing Sarie. I believe you are inherently a decent woman - stop lieing and cheating on your H. Isn't 10 years long enough?

Lisa

Sarie

I don't want to join those who are speaking harshly but I must say you really need to stand back and look at your post as a nuetral observer.

You cannot hold onto many of the things and feelings you express and still be 100% committed to rebuilding.

Sarie NO AFFAIR occurs without secrecy.

They start with little secrets like having feelings for someone else. Then by sharing intimate conversation without someone else and keeping that secret....an so on.

No affair starts out in the open. THEY ALL start under the veil of secrecy.

You are keeping secrets. You are keeping those feelings from him. You are seperating yourself from him maintaining a seperate set of feelings you don't share with him. Remember the seperate set of feelings you felt in the begginning about the OM?

Secondly affairs are not reality they are fantasy.

You seem to fail to recognize that you seem to think there was one ounce of reality in what happened.

Was your "dating" husband the same as your "once I married him" husband? Of course not.

When you date someone you see them at their best. You see them when you both look forward to seeing each other. You see them with a sense of having missed them.

Sound familar to how you saw the OM?

You don't see the OM when he is sweaty and nasty from having just mowed the lawn. You don't see him out of the corner of your eye when he scratched his butt or picked his nose. Every day you don't smell his morning breath or the residual smell left after he used the bathroom.

You don't see him when you would drather watch a movie and he wants to have sex. You don't see him when you are fretting over how to pay the bills or get one kid to dance and the other to soccer practice.

If it were somehow possible to for the OM and your husband to switch places odds are you would have still had the affair but this time it would be your husband in the fantasy role and the OM in the familar role.

Until you recognize this you are still in a fog. You still do not understand what really is real. You still hold up this false sense of reality regarding the affair and the OM.

You are in some respects much like the alcholic that thinks because he hasn't had a drink he is just fine. But you ignor the fact you still think about drinking you still hold drinking up as a good thing.

Your recovery at this stage is not a true recovery.

As to the dual pain thing there have been countless threads here about the BS's pain and the WS's pain and how they compare.

I want to point out something you though regarding the use of the word dual.

You are assumming that your spouse's pain is singular his loss but one dimensional.

The discovery of an affair is viewed by most noted experts on infidelity as one of if not the most painful experiences a betrayed spouse will go through. As painful as the loss of a child. As traumatic as being raped.

Until you can honestly look at what you have gained and not what you have lost you will never recover. And as long as you focus on your pain not your husband you will not be truly remorseful.

Real remorse looks at others pain not its own.

IMHO you are still in some form of withdrawal. Your addiction is not over just because you stopped using the "drug". Your addictiona and recovery will happen when you no longer think nor crave that which you were at one time addicted to.

Dear Stunned Dad.
Thank you for taking the time to write to me.
I am always amazed at the caring that goes on here at this marriage builders message board!

Your words mean a lot to me, because you truly understand my husband's feelings since you are a husband that also had an unfaithful wife.

You have given me much to think about.
You are right, I am like a recovering alcoholic that still just wants a little tiny drink.
It just does NOT work that way, it has to be NONE!

My husband and I were driving last night to babysit our daughter's little girls and I brought up the subject and said "Is there anything you want to ask me about what happened with____ and I told him again that I will spend the rest of my life trying to be a good wife and to make up for my betrayal and the hurt I caused him."

He didn't say anything for a couple minutes and then he said "I told you during that 3 weeks of intense discussion that I forgave you. Please please stop bringing it up, let's just go on without talking about it anymore! I believe you when you say you will never contact him or let him so much as touch you if you meet on the street. And I am going to try to be a better husband because I now know you need a lot of ATTENTION. I don't want you being especially nice either, just be yourself, if you are upset about something, say it. I don't want you doing the 'pentance thing' for the rest of our lives!"

Now that was a lot from him. It may not have been worded exactly like that but that is how I understood what he said!

So I changed the subject and talked about our other daughter's new puppy, his job (that always opens him up)....If I sat too silent I was afraid he would think I was thinking of the OM so I tried to kinda jabber about the icy roads, conversation with his mom, eating healthy, exercising more and the like.

The evening went fine.
We came home and made love.

I will re-read your message again,Stunned Dad, as I know I need to make some drastic changes in my HEART.
It is just SO HARD to get over "HIM" as he has been a part of my daily life for such a long long time.
I think it is called an EA as the PA had ended.

Sincerely and lovingly and thankfull to all of you, Sarah

Sarie

How very sad your last message was. Your poor husband believing you when you say you won't contact OM again, but you are still in touch with him.

Again, you choose to ignore my questions to you. I am glad however that you listened to Stunned Dad because he made some very wise observations.

When Sarie will you write a NC letter and mean it? When will you end all contact with OM, and give your H the respect he deserves?

Wishing you well.
Lisa

Dear Lisa.
My husband has every right to believe me when I told him I have not contacted the OM because I haven't!

He watched me e-mail him the note that said I had confessed to my husband and would no longer be calling or e-mailing him again.
I wished him a happy life with his lady friend.
(This was Dec. 28)

It was the OM that called me, two weeks after that e-mail and I DID tell my husband.

I absolutely KNOW I need to take the next step and write the 'CONTACT from the OM' letter and have my husband send it!

What a 'great gift' that would be to my precious
and deserving husband!

I am planning on Feb. 1 as the day that is to be done.
I will share it here with you before I send it.

Once I tried and everyone here said it sounded more like a love letter so I will use the MB example for writing it.
It will be one of the hardest things I have ever done, yet one of the most soul - freeing and right thing for our marriage thing that I have ever done.

Sincerely, Sarah

Well I stand corrected!! Well done you!! I thought an earlier post said that you were having phone contact once a month? I am glad you understand the importance of NC. Believe me, I do know how hard that is. But you are lucky your H is standing by you. Mine didn't and there are many more out there that go the same way. Because we have found MB we are usually the lucky ones because we have a plan to recover our M. But it takes two. But as you know, for me, personal recovery was as important if not more so than my M. Sadly, I really don't think my M was meant to be. BTW, if you have send an e-mail, there is probably no further need for a letter, because you are just prolonging your own agony. It is further contact.

Sarie, you know that any harsh words here are said to you becuase people truly care. As one of my last messages said to you, I believe you are a good person. But continue to be a good and honest person. Both you and your H deserve no less than that.

Wishing you well from rainy London.
Lisa