Originally posted by Sarie:

"He didn't say anything for a couple minutes and then he said "I told you during that 3 weeks of intense discussion that I forgave you. Please please stop bringing it up, let's just go on without talking about it anymore!"

"So I changed the subject and talked about our other daughter's new puppy, his job (that always opens him up)...."

A perfect example of conversation between two married conflict-avoiders.

"The evening went fine" .... might mean that intimate conflict was successfully avoided.

Sarie, didn't you ever wonder if true marital intimacy should include conflict and uncomfortable discussions?

Opening one's self up to express painful feelings, thoughts, and wounds with one's spouse is one of the cornerstones of actual intimacy. Trusting your spouse to accept your tender underbelly of emotional vulnerability is what brings our souls closer together.

Maybe this is what you still miss .... why you still cling to the OM's memory .... you don't trust telling your H your deepest feelings. (He might say "Let's not discuss this any further" .... which is tantamount to a rejection) You are too busy being "pleasant" and never quite "real" with your H. Your H, while a nice man, is somewhat of a coward when it comes to opening up and showing you his insides..... true or false?

Just a thought.

Just getting along quietly without arguements or intense sharing of feelings .... might be what drove you to seek an affair partner ..... just another thought.

What is your definition of marital intimacy?

Take care.

Pep

Thanks Lisa for your kind words.

You were right, I had said once a month...
From Aug until Jan.

It is just recently that the 'new rules' are being put in place! My husband and I are still 'babies' in this recovery time of our lives!

I just got this e-mail from my husband and I thought it worth sharing:

"Let's not keep looking back because that is NOT the direction we are going.
Sarah, I love you, (Husband)"

Wasn't that sweet of him?
I do love and appreciate him.

It is strange how a person (I doubt if I am the only one) can love two men but in different ways; as each man has his own unique personality! What a deal!

<small>[ January 20, 2004, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Sarie ]</small>

Sarah that was a nice update but pepper does have a point in not avoiding talking about the painful issues IF one or both of you feel strongly enough to discuss them. Your H told you he was going to better spouse by giving you more attention than before, well ask him what he meant when he said that for it might have a different meaning for him than it does for you. Ask him if his attention is only limited to feel good, non thorny issues or whether it also encompasses these as well. Personally, I wouldn't want my W to only pay attention to me when it involved non conflictive issues, and something tells me you wouldn't want that either, am I right?

Sarah,
You wrote:
"It is strange how a person (I doubt if I am the only one) can love two men but in different ways; as each man has his own unique personality! What a deal!"

What you feel for the Om will fade as your love for your husband increases. This will come if you follow the principals on this website and those explained thouroughly in Surviving An Affair.

As both of you are meeting each others needs, your love for him will increase. Then you will be able to look back and realize that the real treasure you have is your wonderful husband.

I think you are to be commended for telling your husband, and cutting off all contact with the OM. Only through NC will you be able to get over him...I think you know this. If you haven't read the book...please consider it. You will see yourself in Sue...(a WW Harley uses to illustrate his points)

Think of what needs the OM met that made you fall for him, and see if you can communicate to your husband new and creative ways to meet that need. The questionaires on the web site may help you. Your husband may not want to fill them out--but you need to do it anyway.

Please keep reading and posting. It takes awhile for all of this to sink in...you won't change your way of thinking over night, it takes time, but your feelings will change if you keep reading, posting, showing your husband love, and staying completely away from OM.
Good luck,
Diane
A formerly WW who is in love with my husband!!!

Dear Too Much Coffee Man.
I think I am a little like my husband, as I don't want to discuss the affair anymore either.
If he brings it up, I will, but really enough has been said during those 3 weeks after I told him.

We talked a lot.
It seems it is time to move on and not continually talk about it.

That is what stops a lot of healing in marriages, to continually talk it over and over.

You asked what he meant by giving me attention.
I will ask him that.
It kinda came out kinda nasty, like I need more attention that the usual female?

Maybe he thinks that is why I strayed, but he HAS to know it was in no way his fault.

I think BS's still don't get it when we say it has nothing to do with them!
It is our own over-whelming infatuation that obsesses our minds and makes us yearn almost beyond human denial, to spend some time with that OP.

Entirely selfish and wrong, ABSOLUTELY, however, it is the obsession of all obsessions; I read it is stronger even than the desire for drugs!

Sincerely, Sarah

<small>[ January 20, 2004, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: Sarie ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sarie:
That is what stops a lot of healing in marriages, to continually talk it over and over.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Originally posted by Sarie:

I think BS's still don't get it when we say it has nothing to do with them!

The condition of the marriage is the responsibility of both partners.

Sarie:

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE listen to TMCM & Pepper! They are SO right about communication being key.

I myself had an A 3 years ago; my amazing hubby forgave, but we only went to MC for a few weeks & changed our habits only temporarily. Neither of us ever properly addressed the issue, nor did we actively work on making any changes. We very quickly went back to the "same old same-old" routine, and I recently became the unwitting co-conspiritor in a VERY short-lived (and widely-broadcast) EA.

Naturally, having now established myself as a "repeat offender," hubby is out the door & planning to file for divorce.

Please take the time to discuss the A, your respective ENs, and WORK at rebuilding your marriage. Don't make the same mistake hubby & I did, which was to "patch & forget about" the incident.

My heart goes out to both of you. I am adding you to my MB prayer list.

I just went back and re-read the entire thread.
I had missed Whippit and Pepper's replies because I must have been posting at the same time! And I just read the latest one from C.
(I am sorry your husband did not forgive you a second time; maybe it is NOT too late for your marriage, as many couples have recovered here at this site.)
Thanks to all.

There is much much to think about.
I know there is lack of conversational intimacy, but I think there are a lot of marriages like that.
Many women turn to 'girlfriends' to fulfill that emotional need in their lives.

I talk a lot with my sister, (NOT about the affair) as my husband just does not like conflict whether it be about things that are happening on the news or gossip around town or my feelings about emotional things; he wants no part in the conversation. Yes, he avoids conflict.

Once my dad had a little talk with me when I was younger about a hired-hand of his, that I rode with on the tractor (I am a farm girl) That one time 'lecture' had more impact on me than if my dear dad would have said it over and over!
That was 25 years ago and I remember what great respect I had for Dad for talking to me.

I was having a bit of an emotional connection for this 'tractor driver' and it was nipped in the bud by my dad's kind admonishing words!

For me, it works much better if friends here try to LEAD me out of the FOG rather than to DRIVE me out of the FOG.
Sincerely, Sarah

so why don't you lead yourself out of the fog?

Originally posted by Sarie:

I know there is lack of conversational intimacy, but I think there are a lot of marriages like that.

In YOUR marriage, do you think this lack of intimacy is perhaps (a part of) your marriage that made you vulnerable to an affair for 10 long years?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In YOUR marriage, do you think this lack of intimacy is perhaps (a part of) your marriage that made you vulnerable to an affair for 10 long years </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know it certainly was for me.

Welcome back Pepper. I missed you.

Susan

Sarah wrote:
"I know there is lack of conversational intimacy, but I think there are a lot of marriages like that."

I think she is right about this. In my own marriage it was true...although getting better, it is easier to talk to my girl friends...and I want to change it. My friend whom I wrote about a few weeks ago (husband recently confessed to an affair) has the same problem.

Those of you who have a level of intimacy in coversation, how about giving Sarah (and the rest of us) some ways we can change that will help. My husband is alot like hers...hard to get to open up. I'm working to change myself but could use some suggestions. Thanks Diane

Sarah would you say that it was easier to talk to the OM about topics your H would normally shy away from?

My H never talked to me at all. We just talked about what we had to talk about and otherwise sort of lived our seperate lives.

After two years of therapy, we discovered the damage this did to us. We learned communication and listening skills. I learned to get behind his eyeballs and see and feel what he felt and he learned the same.

Even now, it is easy to slip back into the habit of not communicating. I am keenly aware of it when it happens. I start to feel the distance growing and I bring it to his attention. Then we both try to do better.

It all revolves around recognizing the problem and making and effort or working together to change.

Susan <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

We men tend to be problem solvers and when we become involved with listening to our women, that mindset tends to kicks in. If we find, what we consider a solution but our wives don't care too much for it, we end up feeling like 'what's the use of this conversation anyway?'. It seldom occurs to us that the point of the conversation (for our wives) is not to come up with a solution to a perceived problem but to simply listen (in other words, the Mars/Venus thing). Maybe if you could explain to your H that when you want to talk about a subject that he might not be to thrilled about, that you are not asking him to solve a problem but to simply give you his undivided attention and just listen to your expressing your most deepest thoughts and feelings, then he might not be so quick to say 'no way Jose! I'm out of here'. Would you give some consideration to this?

Highlights from SKM's message .... isolated for Sarie to consider.....


"He knows when something is wrong, and he cares enough to find out what it is."

"I think the one thing that has helped my H and I get through this is open and honest communication."

"And I guess, for me at least, that my H would just sit in silence with me if I didn't feel like talking, he would ask questions, he would ask follow-up, probing questions to get at how I was feeling, but the most important thing was that he was willing to listen to what I had to say and at least try to understand where I was coming from."

"I mean, he doesn't know what I'm going through - or what I went through - or why it happened, but he listens with an open mind."

"In one year [we] both have learned how to take a marriage to a new depth."

"In one year [we] have learned not to forget. So [we won&#8217;t] ever forget what [we] have learned."

Sarie .... just putting it behind you will not take your marriage to a new depth.

You need to challenge your H to open up ....

Pep

Sarie,

I'm glad you told your H, and his reaction. But, that you are lieing to him about what you are really feeling and thinking is a problem. Your H wants you to be yourself, what does he mean by this. Probably wants you to be the person he married not the person you became when you started the A. I do think that you both do need to set aside some time to talk about the A, and the M. But that is something you do need to talk to your H about.

Its good that your finally going to write an NC letter, NC is the only route for you to go. One thing for you to do is if you receive a call from him is to hang up. You did promise your H about contact, and just because the OM is the one calling doesn't mean that you should talk to him. That is contact. That you told your H is very good.

You are right to say you shouldn't be driven out of the fog, but a lot of people are trying to help you come out of the fog yourself.

I'm sure you will come out of the fog, its only a matter of time.

I do encourage you to not bury your M problems or not to communicate about them. Those feeling and thoughts do need to get out. It's better to do it in a healthy manner then to let it degrade your M any further. Are you and your H going to see a MC? Both of you need to open up to each other. Your H needs to be open and honest on what he is feeling, just as much as you do for him.

Time, Patience and Love.

Sarah, your M can be much better and stronger. But it will take both of you to do it, and that really doesn't include just letting it go. Problems must be faced and dealt with. I do believe you when you say you Love your H. I also know that your H Loves you. Your both still at the beginning of the beginning.

God Bless

toomuchcoffeeman: Hey, I have a question about talking with the WS. How does the w approach a WS about talking and revealing when the other spouse isn't do this in the first place? How does a spouse ask for finaincial details when the WS is not telling the facts but concealing the info. They do this because they think they are 'handling' things not been devious. If you ask and are given the top layer of cake what do you do with this info.? How do you know that you have been shown the facts if you ask and are shown what is available? Do you call the Bank and ask for additional copies of the statements? Do you hire the PI to check things out? If they will hedge the truth and not call that lying then maybe there will be monies diverted in his name only and other dealings. How can we be sure???? Peace

Sarie,

I read this whole thread and you said many things that really worry me. First, I would like to congratulate you on telling your H. Next, I would like to tell you that you are luckier than you realize or deserve. I make this last statement based on some of your statements. It seems you have no idea what love, devotion, AND RESPECT mean.

Knowing SKM and her H, I can say that she got one thing that you don’t. OM was not of value to her or her marriage. She had many ups and downs, but there was little doubt who loved her, and supported her. Her H is a very very special man, and she knew that. You don’t seem to have a clue.

Someone mentioned that a lot of what you post is about you and frankly it is. You are failing your H big time and I will explain this comment at the end of the post.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "The trouble with love affairs, they are not for keeps, to face living alone the rest of your life with only a few fleeting moments of companionship is quite ominous and leaves you with an empty feeling....You need to comprehend what the feeling is like to be alone every day and every night in your home with no one ever there--maybe you can imagine if you try.

You have your husband, I am alone, and now I have the opportunity to spend the rest of my life with a woman that loves me and I have love for her. She is a wonderful woman. She has been widowed for 3 years. She needs me and I need her.

Sarah, I will love you and remember you until the day I die, but I accept I can never have you for keeps.
You know that is what I always wanted but you absolutely refused to even consider it.

We are now at the crossroads, and darling I wish you only the best in your life with your husband and family.

You have been the sunshine of my life for such a long time. It was you that gave me a reason to live when my life seemed to be at the end.
Thank you for your love and caring.
Love always______(Other man's name" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The parts in bold just turn my stomach. YOU and OM should understand what it is like to be betrayed and abandoned by your spouse. You had your H, but he did NOT have you. According to you he never talked so how did having your H help you. This man never considered what he was stealing from your H and yet he wants your sympathy. I am sure he will love you until the day he dies, you were free for him. No costs, no commitment, just a free ride.

I know you look at this as a romantic letter, but it was so full of disrespect for your H and what YOU robbed him of. Someday if you ever really do recover, I hope you look again at this letter.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I shouldn't admit it but he does call me once a month in a friendly manner. No past lovemaking talk or reviewing special memories; (well some actually, we have a lot of history together) but mostly just to see how I am doing.
I tell him I am happy to be on the right path with a clear conscience and peace of mind.
I told him my husband knows and we are trying to make our marriage the best it can be. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So you consider once a month NC??? I know you claim that YOU don’t contact him, how convenient. Oh! And perhaps Feb. would be convenient for YOU to stop. WHAT ABOUT YOUR H??? Do you think it might have been convenient for him if you stopped you’re a some time earlier than a decade later??? Have you no idea what the heck you have done?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I tell my husband that I no longer love the OM and yes it is a LIE but one I am willing to tell to my husband.
You just don't know how much I love my husband, it is beyond words. And how I could have betrayed him, I have no reasonable answer for!
I HATE what I have done to him yet I am still not entirely off the 'drug', I am sorry to say. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great, a lie you a willing to tell your H. I am sure he would appreciate it if you were WILLING to tell him some more, for say… 10 years or so. WHAT ARE YOU THINKING???? Surely, you are not thinking about your H. Then you say we “don’t know how much you love your H”. Hello, I doubt that you know what the word means. You are simply lying and lying and making up stories. No wonder he doesn’t talk to you, it is about you and it is a lie. Why bother?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He didn't say anything for a couple minutes and then he said "I told you during that 3 weeks of intense discussion that I forgave you. Please please stop bringing it up, let's just go on without talking about it anymore! I believe you when you say you will never contact him or let him so much as touch you if you meet on the street. And I am going to try to be a better husband because I now know you need a lot of ATTENTION. I don't want you being especially nice either, just be yourself, if you are upset about something, say it. I don't want you doing the 'pentance thing' for the rest of our lives!" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course his belief in you is founded on a lie. Second, has it occurred to you that you should be talking about the FUTURE with your H and what you have learned from you’re A , and what you are going to do to make the future better, besides lie to him?

Finally, it seems he feels more remorse for not being a “better husband” than you do for NOT BEING HIS W for 10 years. Don’t give me I cooked for him, I did this or that. You treated him like your favorite puppy, and when you wanted to entertain yourself, you patted him on the head, and left to be with OM.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What a 'great gift' that would be to my precious
and deserving husband! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, NC is NOT a GIFT to your H. It is what you should have been doing all along. You don’t make a gift of something that was already supposed to be his. The gift will be to you. The NC will help YOU. You might just go to your grave knowing that you finally were a W to your H. Given your comments about your Dad and his advice to you, and the timing, I would guess that your Dad saved you from cheating on your H 25 years ago as well. Sarie, you have a lot to consider, and the major one is what it means to be married and what love means. I strongly suggest that you seek counseling.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "Let's not keep looking back because that is NOT the direction we are going.
Sarah, I love you, (Husband)"

Wasn't that sweet of him?
I do love and appreciate him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, sweet and you “appreciate” him as well. He is such a well trained dog. &#61516; Sarie, he is telling you something and you are NOT listening. Looking forward means talking about the future, in light of what has occurred in the past. It is taking the past and learning from it, discussing it in context of what you and he plan to do. But, of course this does require honesty. Something that up until this date he has not had from you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think I am a little like my husband, as I don't want to discuss the affair anymore either.
If he brings it up, I will, but really enough has been said during those 3 weeks after I told him.

We talked a lot.
It seems it is time to move on and not continually talk about it.

That is what stops a lot of healing in marriages, to continually talk it over and over.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, you are wrong. You do continually talk about it, within the context of what you are going to do in the future and why. The why is based on what you have learned from your affair, and what you want to have happen in the future. How and what would make you happier in your marriage. YOU MUST TALK.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You asked what he meant by giving me attention.
I will ask him that.
It kinda came out kinda nasty, like I need more attention that the usual female?

Maybe he thinks that is why I strayed, but he HAS to know it was in no way his fault.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What a dumb comment. You already know he feels it is his fault. He said so. The nasty part may well be the resentment that he is dealing with. IF you don’t get him to talk about that, it will kill the marriage and perhaps him, assuredly it will kill his love for you. THIS IS NOT SOMETHING YOU CAN SWEEP UNDER THE RUG. You talk to him, you ask him questions. Ask him what he felt when you told him the news. What does he feel know? Does he hurt, feel numb, alone, abandoned? Ask, and then sit there quietly and give him time to think and develop his answers. You must bring this out of him or you and he will pay.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think BS's still don't get it when we say it has nothing to do with them!
It is our own over-whelming infatuation that obsesses our minds and makes us yearn almost beyond human denial, to spend some time with that OP. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think WS’s don’t get it. The pain, the lack of confidence in your spouse, the fact that someone else was chosen over them, that someone else got the intimacy that they should have, that their efforts were judged to be inferior to the OP. You don’t understand no matter how well or poorly your H was an H to you, he wanted you happy, he wanted you to love him, he wanted your devotion and he did NOT get it for 10 years. You just don’t get it.

Sarie, I understand an 10 year long affair is hard to let go off. I also understand that your H has little to say because he has not been an intimate part of your thinking or your life for at least a decade. He has been shut out, by your lies and it sounds as if he responded by withdrawing. You need to lead the way out of the withdrawal. This is NOT a normal affair. Over ¼ of your marriage, and a good fraction of your life has been devoted to OM. Your H has a lot more healing to do than you realize, and you two have a lot of work to do to develop a real marriage, not just a friendship. Your lack of effort and lies have done much more damage than you seem to think.

Interestingly, your H is the one that states he will be a better H, but you need to talk to him about how to do that. How he can make you happy so that he will develop some confidence in you and himself. You on the other hand go blithely along saying “I will spend my life making it up to him.” Which is a really big copout. You need a plan and a purpose, neither of which you have. Statements like the above are just platitudes, what is your concrete plan to make this marriage better? Have you discussed your plan with your H? Does he agree?

Quit patting doggy on the head, and start treating him as a real man. He deserves the truth and a role in his future.

Sarie, you have made some positive steps, but you are failing at the crucial ones, honesty, respect for your H, and a plan to rebuild your marriage.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL