Plan A is not never, ever doing something which may be a LB.
For instance, if your children are being beaten, it is a LB to take them away from your spouse.
But it IS something you have to do.

This is just an example of when it is okay to LB.

I started this thread because some people some to think it is NEVER acceptable to do something whcih may be a LB.

Gotta stop & think about what you are doing and why. But sometimes, certain situations demand you do something.

<small>[ January 27, 2004, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Adding to the list: plan A is not accepting and condoning that WS is meeting OP. I&#8217;ve read here stories along the lines that &#8220;WS always gets angry if I mention why he/she is still in contact with OP&#8221; . I think the answer to that one is: yes, continue to mention it, if the content of that message is tough to accept for your WS, then so be it &#8211; what you can control is the tone in which the message is delivered. I.e., don&#8217;t shout, make angry scenes, ultimatums, blackmail etc etc &#8211; but stay firm on the message that no, it&#8217;s not OK for WS to continue to be in contact. Just say it nicely.

Great thread Chris.

Plan A is NOT taking the WS' blame as your own. Allowing the WS to put their blame on the BS and family (or anyone else).

OT: Under the concepts section is a statement about how to handle stressful confrontations:

"If you reach an impasse and you do not seem to be getting anywhere, or if one of you is starting to make demands, show disrespect or become angry, stop negotiating and come back to the issue later."

This is critical in maintaining control while in plan A. Remember that all issues don't have to be resolved when the BS is ready. The WS is in the fog and in many cases is not mentally ready to have a deep and important discussion.

As Kenny Roger's said: 'you got to.....know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em. Know when to walk away, know when to run....."

Sometimes the BS tries to resolve the issues when the WS has already mentally left the room and floated back to the 'mothership'. At that point, it is a waste of time and energy to deal with the WS.

JMHO,
L.

Plan A is not NOT exposing affair to the light of day to a well thought out few individuals...

including the BS of the OP>...
affairs thrive in their secrecy...


ofcourse the WS will be angry about the exposure......
but it they are sooooo happy with their choices then they should not care...

ark

The following words from Dr Harley helped me so much when I was trying to learn what Plan A was and what it wasn't:

Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse

The love busters are disrespect, demands and angty outbursts. Refusing to accept infidelity is not a love buster, it is sanity.

If you read the entire article on What Is Plan A and Plan B, it is noted strongly that an affair is the cruelest experience for the BS. To me it was the worst form of abuse and I am so happy I learned to yell OUCH!!!!! in the right way. I truly have never been happier.

This is a good thread!

TW

Chris and Nick, I'd like to pursue this a little bit with regard to NC. My W's ONS was in 2/02 as
was her confession. But being very naive I let contact continue in a weekly bar league. Now 2 years later contact continues outside the league via regular phone calls to "chit chat". OM is single and 11 yrs younger so I'm very convinced that it is EA only. W however conveniently won't ackowledge EA. Instead she'll make token efforts to hide the phone calls. While they are short in duration it simply shows she is thinking of him. I have had this discussion for literally two years with no end in sight. To make it even worse I am occassionally in contact with OM and have never said I know. Main reason was to protect W's reputation within a group that has many tentacles into other areas of both our lives.
I think this was a good decision at the time if she had backed out of the relationship. I now go to MC alone to let W know that it isn't getting any easier for me to accept this situation. Compared to other peoples troubles this may seem minor but as most know it is like water on a rock.
My newest idea for my own peace is to explain to W that I will never be in these peoples company again. That means the whole team. This will put lots of pressure on her and she'll be pissed but I really don't think she'll view it as a LB. In her heart she is well aware of the pain it causes me. I guess my question is do I tell her I'm never going to be in their company or simply turn down each and every invitation as they come up. Also do you have any further suggestions on how to get this M back on the right track?

WOE,
Reaad tossedwave's response above.

Now 2 years later contact continues outside the league via regular phone calls to "chit chat".
ALL contact needs to be ended between her and the om.

OM is single and 11 yrs younger so I'm very convinced that it is EA only.
What? This would lead me to believe that it is a PA.

To make it even worse I am occassionally in contact with OM and have never said I know. Main reason was to protect W's reputation within a group that has many tentacles into other areas of both our lives.
They has been in this group for two years and you think they don’t KNOW what went on? Of course they do.

I think this was a good decision at the time if she had backed out of the relationship.
Yes.

Compared to other peoples troubles this may seem minor
Sorry to day but you’re in the same boat as most here. Your wife is having an affair. Probably EA, very likely PA.

My newest idea for my own peace is to explain to W that I will never be in these peoples company again.
Your “new idea” is not gonna do anything for your marriage. Your WIFE needs to get rid of these “friends”.

This will put lots of pressure on her and she'll be pissed but I really don't think she'll view it as a LB.
This is EXACTLY the reason I started this thread. It does NOT matter one iota (a small particle <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) if it is a lovebuster or not. It is something you have to do.

I guess my question is do I tell her I'm never going to be in their company or simply turn down each and every invitation as they come up. Also do you have any further suggestions on how to get this M back on the right track?
So you are going to tell her, “honey, it’s okay if you continue your affair but I’m not gonna be around all these other people who have known what is going on for the last x years.”?

If you have not read “Surviving An Affair” do so now.
Read all the links below.

<small>[ January 28, 2004, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Chris, you've helped me before and I guess I need another smack for how this situation has manipulated me instead of the other way around. I have never read this book but will put in on the list. I am working on Not Just Friends and have read HNHN quite a while ago. One of the things I read in the Glass book is that Woman have affairs because of years of dissatisfaction in the marriage. This is really hard for me to accept but I don't doubt it.

I agree without a doubt the group knows what happened and that defeated my whole purpose for keeping quiet. Very big mistake. In fact I think just about everyone knows she had an affair as they would routinely ask her "whats wrong with your husband" as I walked around like a zombie for months.

You may think I'm very naive but I am very convinced that it's EA only. That is just based on feel and I could be further blindsided. But she is always where she supposed to be and our SF is normal etc. I know that she initiated it and that's why I have never bothed to worry about the OM. In fact you may have been one of the people that told me a long time ago that he is not my concern. He is single and a player. He's bragged to W that he's been with 10 married women.
A real winner.

I mentioned that I go to MC by myself. And have another appointment tomorrow. He is very experienced but is puzzled as well and also warns that it may be PA. Maybe I'll take off my pink glasses and begin watching very closely again. That would result in immediate Plan B. Thanks for your help and I will review both the other post as well as your attachements.

Hi WOE
Not sure what to make out of your situation. If it indeed was only a ONS, potentially fuelled by alcohol or something other which induced a moment of madness, and she confessed, then this is a relatively small incident in the larger scheme of things (compared to other stories here on the board)
However, the fact that she doesnt join you to go to the MC raises some alarm bells in my head. You are doubtful yourself: is her contact "only" because you all hang out with the same group of friends? is it an EA? ... is the PA still going on?
Bottom line, it still churns away in you and you're not any wiser yet. I recommend you take her to MC too - to bottom out the feeling you had re. "years of unsatisfied marriage".

The other point I wanted to make is re. your circle of friends: if *you* avoid them, but your W not, then that's bad. You should socialise together - otherwise you continue to drift apart, and it will only be a question of time until the next "accicent" will happen. So, join her - or get her to leave the circle of friends too.

N

Part of Plan A also is exposing the A.

Why not tell the OM you know? Why not tell her "friends" you know what went on, and what is still going on? You may be surprised at who, of her friends, does not know what is going with OM and W.

I've heard it on here many times, and my H told me too, he probably wouldn't have stopped until I found out and contacted the OW.


2 years seems like quite a long time to put up with this inappropriate behavior. Her behavior has been very selfish...her need for fun on bar league night, and for a connection to the OM through phone calls takes precedence over your M?

StillHere, Nick and of course Chris thanks for your time and insight. The truth is somewhere between Nick's and StillHere's version and Chris' version. It is not PA I am certain. The problem is she has been in the league for 4 years. While I could not dismiss this ONS as alcohol induced that may have played a part. But that fact may make it more tolerable between me and my W but it does not make it any easier to be in this guys company. Every case is different but too make a long story short I can say in all honesty I knew she would sleep with this guy before he did. A ridiculous as that sounds it is true. I was hearing "spritual connection", "cutie petootee"
"beautiful blue eyes" well before ONS. Why didn't I do anything? I have no idea I was simpy paralyzed. In some way I let her down. But the ONS is processed and forgiven. But it is still a way out of bounds relationship. I could and would accept that she go out to the bar once a week, play the game and return straight home. No phone calls, no socializing outside of the league etc. Kinda like a bowling league. If nobody every leaves the bowling alley how innappropriate can it get? But once you take it outside those boundaries you get into trouble. I have tapdanced for way too long. Lately it is wearing my down. While Chris wasn't thrilled with my plan, it is my intention to simply explain to W that I will no longer be in these peoples company ever. That would throw a lot of cold water on the situation because everyone would recognize that something is very wrong in the marriage if I no longer involved. It would continue to increase pressure on W. And at some point she has to understand how much she is giving up for how little she is getting. Yes affairs thrive in secrecy but they also serve a purpose. Cake and eat it to. Well if the home front continues to digress she will need a 3rd man to replace the needs I fill. Or, she will have to address the problem. I have been the most romantic person I could be for the last several years. For the first time in 20 years I gave her no x-mas card. She didn't even notice. Now I will not ackowlege Valentines day. I don't do this out of spite or to get her attention, I do it because it's how I feel. How can I give her a mushy card when I don't feel it. And "Feel It" is exactly why I'm back and seeking advice. Because the LB is empty as was predicted here. Finally I did get her to one MC session and she conveniently didn't think it was helpful. I have gone to at least 10 by myself. She sees that money going out and this also must hurt her. She is selfish, yes, but not oblivious to my pain.

It is not PA I am certain.
You’re certain because?

If nobody every leaves the bowling alley how innappropriate can it get?
She is having an affair (EA or PA) with this guy. ANY contact is COMPLETELY inappropriate.

While Chris wasn't thrilled with my plan, it is my intention to simply explain to W that I will no longer be in these peoples company ever.
And that will accomplish zilch.
Everyone will think you are completely naive about what went on/is going on or you don’t care.

That would throw a lot of cold water on the situation
No it would not. In fact, everyone would probably lighten up a bit cause they wouldn’t have to tap dance around the issue.

because everyone would recognize that something is very wrong in the marriage if I no longer involved.
And they would see that you do not want to address the problem.

And at some point she has to understand how much she is giving up for how little she is getting.
Why would she have to understand it?

Yes affairs thrive in secrecy but they also serve a purpose. Cake and eat it to.
Huh? That is what happens (if the problems are not addressed) but that is not the “purpose” of them.

Well if the home front continues to digress she will need a 3rd man to replace the needs I fill.
Why would she need a 3rd? She has dart boy. He can start to fill these needs you don’t. Also, what would stop her from getting a 3rd. You simply stepping away from the situation is telling her you don’t want to deal with it.

Or, she will have to address the problem.
No, she will have less to deal with.

I have been the most romantic person I could be for the last several years.
Romance may have had very little to do with the situation. Especially if someone is in an emotional affair, your attempts at romance may have done nothing for her.

Finally I did get her to one MC session and she conveniently didn't think it was helpful.
This is “normal” in her situation.

I have gone to at least 10 by myself.
And is this simply you moaning about your wife/marriage or is your counselor giving you things to do which will positively impact your marriage?

She sees that money going out and this also must hurt her.
Why must it hurt her?

She is selfish, yes, but not oblivious to my pain.
Maybe not oblivious, but she isn't/does not seem to be concerned at all.

<small>[ January 29, 2004, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

just a couple of points -
Dont engage in any games like not sending xmas cards, not going to the league anymore etc etc - either do a good, honest, solid plan A, or, if you can't, draw the line in the sand and put yourself somewhere safe, ie plan B with you avoiding hurtful contact with her. the danger of doing something in the middle between plan A and B is that your LBs, outbursts, litte games etc will give her even more reason to continue her affair. Also, your message wont get through as she will be confused by the mixed signals.
In short, I would: communicate clearly to her that your love for her, trust in her, indeed your whole relationship, marriage and future is severely impacted by her inappropriate behaviour. if you have problems communicating, then go together to an MC to learn it, ie not to hit each others' triggers. Continue to be the romantic, loving person you can be - unless you're in danger of losing all love for her and getting emotionally too exhausted. If that's the case, then contemplate plan B.

Chris and Nick. Don't mean to lump you two together as you have very different styles yet both dead on in their own way.

Chris,
I feel very certain it's not PA but just as certain it's EA. Why? I think you feel it and that's the best I can tell you.
I am going to give you a lot more ammunition. When I say I won't be in their company I am referring to the 5 or 6 times a year I see them. W is in the weekly league not me. It's Pool not darts, so we'll make him pool boy. There was a reference to Kenny Rogers song, "you got to know when to hold em and when to fold em". And as we all know we are dealing with very fragile WS. However I realize I am getting to point of strenght in that I think she is now playing with a full deck as opposed to complete FOG. I think you get what I mean by this.
Also I don't care what these people think. I've done nothing wrong and I have no need for their approval. I'm not in this circle it's just forced down my throat a couple times a year.
Does the MC do any good. No more good than what I get here. It's just added pressure, another perspective etc. I likened him to an actuary and asked him to predict my outcome. He said your asking him to predict a situation based on a case of one. He has been doing this for 25 years and I consider him very good, but he says he's never seen anything like this. He basically thinks most men would have given up and I think that's the part he hasn't seen before.

Nick, the xmas card and valentines day wasn't designed to be game playing it's just me being true. I just can't muster the feelings to do it. Basically my heart isn't in it. Romance has been a waste of time I'll agree. And you're right that my Plan A time has passed and has been ineffective. With 3 kids and an otherwise good relationship I have resisted Plan B. To move out over this would just be way too drastic I feel. I am going to communicate my feelings as you suggested in a letter so I don't make a mistake and have it convoluted. I will state all the possitives in our relationship and how much we've been through in the past. Also the impact on our M and children and ask for her to end it. I have never asked her to quit the team only to end the EA. And it is understood that real healing can only begin once she's out of there.

For each of you to consider I would like to say that W and I spent 9 years in an apartment as a result of my compulsive gambling. She stuck through a lot of tough times and this may explain some of her actions now as well as my inaction. I personally have beat this 10 years ago whether she has ever forgiven is really on her at this point. I have paid and paid, both literally and figuratively for my mistake and obviously two wrongs don't make a right.

So would anyone care to make suggestions as to what goes in that letter? W is in Florida with D for the weekend so I will be able to work on this without any extra emotions getting in the way.
Thanks.

Walking

Also I don't care what these people think. I've done nothing wrong and I have no need for their approval.
I’m not suggesting you should care. However, simply bowing out will do nothing.

Does the MC do any good. No more good than what I get here.
Except this free and an MC costs $$.

It's just added pressure, another perspective etc. I likened him to an actuary and asked him to predict my outcome. He said your asking him to predict a situation based on a case of one. He has been doing this for 25 years and I consider him very good, but he says he's never seen anything like this. He basically thinks most men would have given up and I think that's the part he hasn't seen before.
If you are not getting results, I suggest you get another. He’s never seen this and he doesn’t know what to do or expect.
I highly recommend you call Steve or Jennifer Harley here at MB. (see below) Keep in mind this is not simply talking about the problems. You will come up with a solid plan of action. They can tell you what you should expect to happen. This is not something you need to do every few days or even every week. It’s as needed. I talked with Steve only 6 times over a year and a half. Best money I ever spent.
I believe it would be very, very good for you to get an understanding of what you are up against and how you should approach it.

Nick, the xmas card and valentines day wasn't designed to be game playing it's just me being true. I just can't muster the feelings to do it. Basically my heart isn't in it.
So what? Just do it. You don’t have to make it all mushy and pour your heart out. This is one of the problems a ws has with reconciliation. They say they can’t do it because they don’t feel it. Almost every book will tell you to act “as if”.

For each of you to consider I would like to say that W and I spent 9 years in an apartment as a result of my compulsive gambling. She stuck through a lot of tough times and this may explain some of her actions now as well as my inaction.
She may feel that she “deserves” this “little” thing because of that. I don’t know.
But it’s hurting your marriage so it’s wrong.

So would anyone care to make suggestions as to what goes in that letter?
Don’t make it so long that she will look at it and roll her eyes. 1 page max.
You do love her and want your marriage to be better than it is.
Her relationship with pool boy is hurting you immensely and you would like her to end any association with him.
No finger pointing.

Chris, very sound advice. I was going to write an epic but I agree it will get the eye roll. Also thanks for the reminder about being acusatory, I needed that. It's so hard to be objective. Finally your comment that you used Harley only 6 times or so over a year and a half is quite interesting to me. It shows what a long haul this can be as well as changed my perception with regard to quick fix even with the Harley's. That is what I'm looking for. W has had the sh$t kicked out of her by friend after friend. Yes, she makes mistakes but never seems to deserve what she puts up with. She is a very giving person. So she has finally carved out this one thing in her life where everyone looks up to her and she is just her and not my W. She is stay at home mom and everyone constantly tells her you are so lucky to have him. It's uncomfortable because I feel so lucky to have her. I think I will put that in my letter. So to yank this out from under her is really not my intention. Since it is not longterm PA I could accept contact in a certain context with proper boundaries. I understand it's contrary to healing but every case is different. Look I could call the OM right now and complain bitterly about the calls and he would crawl under a rock. I could take it further and say I know about the ONS and insult him further in this area. But I really don't have any anomosity and if I have to be the one to end it, it defeats the purpose. She made this mess and she needs to clean it up so to speak. Chris I admire your patience and dedication to your M as well as the community at MB. Finally, OK I agree it would be a LB to let Valentines Day go by without a decent effort. I'll "feel" like I would hope to feel and act accordingly. One more finally. Do you think it would be wrong to tell her in this letter than I will no longer be in these peoples company? Should I state that as fact or simply leave it out altogether? I'll check back soon.

Walking

Since it is not longterm PA I could accept contact in a certain context with proper boundaries.
The only acceptable context would be NO CONTACT!
Read this link Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery After an Affair

I understand it's contrary to healing but every case is different.
It’s not contrary to healing, it’s contrary to HER getting over him and the affair. As long as former lovers have contact, there will be no recovery.

Look I could call the OM right now and complain bitterly about the calls and he would crawl under a rock.
Very doubtful. After all, two years ago, he had sex with your wife and he STILL sees her every week and talks with her all the time. Why would he stop now? Because you "complain bitterly"?

I could take it further and say I know about the ONS and insult him further in this area.
Sorry, but that would not be an insult to him in any way. You are the one who has known about it for (how long?) and have taken no actions.

Do you think it would be wrong to tell her in this letter than I will no longer be in these peoples company? Should I state that as fact or simply leave it out altogether?
Tell her WHY you won’t be in their company and request that SHE no longer be in their company as they have enabled her affair.

All I see you really trying to do is sidestep the issues with her. If you want your relationship to not get any better (and it WILL get worse), you are going about the right way.

<small>[ January 30, 2004, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Chris, I like what you've said. I suppose like anything in life, you start to get complacent. What was completely intolerable at the height of this A has now become marginally acceptable over time. I will give you a glimpse or a reality check I had recently. On X-MAS night we had W's family over and at our bar we have a photo album of people who have visited our bar in basement. Well W opened to the pages with the team and just started saying how she adores them etc. After she walked away I made a derogatory comment to which my W's aunt pounced on it in my favor. It then heated up about how unacceptable it was for a married woman to be going around with this group. It got so tense my MIL walked out of the room and told the aunt to stay out of it. W's sister and neice also present. I told them just about everything except the ONS. They were all very sympathetic. W doesn't now this took place. I tell this because it is both a reminder of how painful this really is to me and how really ridiculous it looks from other peoples perspective. Yes I have gotten to accept something that is unacceptable. I will write the letter and explain that I can no longer be in their company because of the pain. I am really considering the Harley call. You make a great case. Also I read the link about no contact and the withdrawal process. Sounds like I got a lot more work ahead then I do behind me. I say behind me not jokingly, but because I really felt I was winning the war. But I guess you're right - I'm not winning anything and I know in my heart it will get worse. How long could I be expected to be disrespected. Thanks.

Walking

Chris, here's the intended letter. Criticism is welcome.
Dear W, As V-day approaches I wanted to write a heartfelt letter for you to get a glimpse into my heart. I love you very much and want to let you know what you're doing is hurting me tremendously. I no longer view Wednesday as pool night but more accurately date night. I have asked you to stop calling M but I know you just can't. Affairs are an addiction and although you don't see this as an affair, it is. Your continued contact with M is preventing any feelings for me from returning. You will never "find" me as long as your heart is divided. In fact you will never be happy yourself until you can resolve this through either divorce or reconcilliation. This is no way to live. You mention that you feel everyone is judging you because you go out and play pool. Everyone is judging you but the only that counts is YOU. You are your biggest critic. Because in your heart you know what you are doing is wrong and that your heart should belong to your husband. Why aren't you happy? Nobody can make you happy but you. Something is missing inside and noone can give it to you. Everything else is a bandaid. I have tried my best to forgive and heal but I have learned that all my efforts are in vein as long as you have continued contact. I have stood by you during your darkest hour and yet you still get upset when I complain about your relationship with M. When I stop complaining is the time to worry. That will mean I have given up. And when you stop caring about my complaints that will mean you have given up. I want you back more than anything but I can't accept a marriage like this. Can you? In order to protect what feelings I have left for you it is necessary for me to no longer be in the company of your pool team. I don't simply mean M but the entire team. It is simply too painful. I hope you will consider leaving this group as well and giving us one more shot. But following this current path is going to end in disaster. I wish you could open up to me because I am still and always your best friend. I will end with this thought; (borrowed from MB) what am I supposed to do when the only one who can stop my tears is the one who made me cry?

Love
H

Walking

Not really sure what this letter is supposed to accomplish. It doesn’t say much about what you want or why.

It is full of everything about her. You tell her what she is feeling, what she knows and what she is thinking. (LBs)
I’m not looking for answers to these questions but they’re more for you to think about what you’re saying.

As V-day
Leave this out. Don’t associate this pain with Valentines Day.

want to let you know what you're doing is hurting me tremendously.
What is hurting you?

I have asked you to stop calling M but I know you just can't.
Yes she can but she chooses NOT to.

Affairs are an addiction and although you don't see this as an affair, it is.
Don’t tell her what she thinks.

Your continued contact with M is preventing any feelings for me from returning.
Why?

You will never "find" me as long as your heart is divided. In fact you will never be happy yourself until you can resolve this through either divorce or reconcilliation.
You do not need to mention divorce (or even hint at it). Also, reconciliation is when you are broken up. You’re still together.

This is no way to live.
What way?

Nobody can make you happy but you. Something is missing inside and noone can give it to you. Everything else is a bandaid.
So how can YOU make it better if it’s all up to her?

When I stop complaining is the time to worry. That will mean I have given up. And when you stop caring about my complaints that will mean you have given up. I want you back more than anything but I can't accept a marriage like this. Can you?
Leave out the threats. Not gonna get you anything except a ticked off wife.

In order to protect what feelings I have left for you it is necessary for me to no longer be in the company of your pool team.
You don’t particularly care for these people nor care to be around them. How is this going to protect your feelings for her? She’ll be out with you not around doing? At least if you’re there, you KNOW what is going on.

I don't simply mean M but the entire team. It is simply too painful. I hope you will consider leaving this group as well and giving us one more shot.
One more shot at what? What is painful?

But following this current path is going to end in disaster.
Playing pool is going to end you marriage?

I wish you could open up to me because I am still and always your best friend.
That is what you WANT to be, not necessarily what you are.

I will end with this thought; (borrowed from MB) what am I supposed to do when the only one who can stop my tears is the one who made me cry?
Why are you crying? Her affair two years ago? Because she plays pool?
Don’t end with this.

<small>[ February 02, 2004, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>