Well I ain't sending the paramedics either... Let em crash and burn LOL. Oh, btw... you are so right believer. I called this morning to see about some money to pick up some things from the grocery... he said I'll bring them by why don't you cook some breakfast. So I made breakfast... and he took care of my am diet coke fix... it was nice. He was here watching tv and I was cleaning and cleaning and cleaning. I figured I'm not gonna hover over him anymore waiting for him to finally figure it out. So while I was cleaning I kept seeing him watching me... he'd look away everytime I caught him... but he was watching. I kept trying to figure out what he was thinking. And the testing, oh I think you are right... because I'm cleaning and hadn't gotten to the living room yet... and he's just laying on the couch and says there's a bunch of **** on the floor in the living room. GRRRR it my normal state of my previous mind... I woulda just lovebusted big time.... but now I know that's just killing my marriage, and I'm going to try hard not to just scream, "No crap, you think I don't know there's stuff on the floor... I haven't cleaned in there YET." Maybe, he was testing to see how I would react... cuz normally that woulda sent me into a tizzy. And it did hurt biting my tongue, but I just said Yeah thanks I still gotta vaccuum in there... and then I realized I don't think he was being sarcastic which is what I would have assumed in my previous lovebuster state... made a judgment. But now, I think I can learn to live like this... and after he saw me working for awhile... he got up and helped.... now why didn't I think about all that before instead of screaming, yelling, and hollering to get him to assist me.... grrrr wish I knew then what I know now.


Lefty.... I am sorry you have to go through this too... be careful on those dates thing... because mine's set deadlines too... but then he couldn't do the NC thing.... he wants to come home but he can't do the NC. He's still deciding he suggested that let's just move her in here thing again.... LOL. I'm almost tempted to do it sometimes.... she's a looney basketcase and her son is over the top crazy.... but it'd be almost fun to watch him realize She ain't all that and a bag of chips. LOL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">grrrr wish I knew then what I know now.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So do I Heavenlee, so do I. Hopefully, its not too late for either of us. On my thread, I've mentioned how he's been calling me a lot today. We've had some great conversations, very deep about our situation. Its been nice. I'm trying not to get my hopes up, but it feels so good that he misses me and wants to talk.

And isn't it cool how you didn't LB and look what happened? He helped! I think that's where we go wrong so often is jumping to conclusions about what the other person meant by what they said. Then you LB, then they LB and the walls go up.

Way to go Heavenlee!

OK okay okay...

I'm just here momentarily to LB.... LOL

GRRRRRR okay my son's (12) teacher calls on a Sunday afternoon to say my son is having angry outbursts and is having trouble focusing in school. Now this is a kid who has never even so much as had a scolding from a teacher in 7 years. Now he's having problems.... ummmm wonder why? Of course, my WH thinks it has nothing to do with the A and what has happened.... my son of course, won't tell his dad what the real problem is... but just like the other day my son said I was the only sane parent he had... then today he told his sister... now you know what I feel like when dad yells at me all the time. He is convinced that his dad likes his sister better because he's mad at his dad... while is sister who is 8 is just trying to make everything better, so she just hangs all over daddy. Grrrrr....and he can't see that his actions are impacting the kids. I think having him over continuously is getting confusing for the kids... maybe I'm gonna have to step up plan B. I'm just not sure what to do... he's here everyday... the only difference is he doesn't sleep here. It's just getting old too.... the whole flippin thing is getting old... I want my husband to grow up and act his age... and not like some stupid 14 year old who's got his first girlfriend... he can't live without. SHEESH.... is that asking to freakin much?

Okay here we are having a great night at home... dinner watching tv with the kids. It was nice to feel like a family. Then he's holding my daughter on his lap and trys to be sneaky with his cell phone. He looks at me like the a kid that just got caught with his hand in the cookie jar... and sneakily trys to put his phone back in it's holder without me seeing. You know when someone trys to be sneaky at **** like that they just make themselves look more guilty. So I get pizzed and kiss the kids goodnight and say I'm going to bed. He comes up and says, "what's the matter?" Like I've just all of the sudden become a crazed person. I say I just got sick to my stomach and I want to go to bed. He says well I don't understand what's the matter... I say what do you think is the matter? He says I have no clue.... I say let me see your phone a minute. He says I took it out because it was sticking me in the stomach... I said then fine you won't mind me seeing it... he just stares and I say well can I see it... he says no you can't. I just say you're a liar and go upstairs... he leaves.

So much for a great evening ruined by the OW otherwise known as the B...Tch

heavenlee, great job in the way you handled the phone call tonight! You confronted him without lovebusters. But I would say that the evening was ruined by HIM because he won't end contact with the OW.

And awesome job of sticking to your guns and not settling for less! Its so hard to do, but I think you realize how much more painful it will be if you relax your boundaries and let him move back in on HIS TERMS. Your persistence will pay off in the end.

LOL well he is just infuriated that I would call him a liar, so I say well why don't you bring your phone back here and let me see if and if I am wrong I will apologize. Of course, that's not the point... he doesn't deserve to be treated that way by me... and I have no right to act like I'm better than he is... and since I didn't yell and scream, rant and rave... he just thought I was being santamonious (sp) and arrogant. I told him I tell ya what bring me the phone and if I am wrong I will apologize and you can have her move is with us... F..U was his response. I said why are you angry with me... if I am wrong you can have exactly what you what... but then I have no clue... so I said well let me tell you what bring me your phone and if I am wrong you can move back in and keep your mistress and we'll just go on living like we did the past year. So he didn't like that idea either... but this is a man who will drive 10 miles out of the way to show me a sign I was wrong about... or go to the internet and print dozens of things off to prove me wrong, but he won't show me his cell phone to prove me wrong about his g/f calling. Yeah he's just mad at me because he got caught... that's so childish.... I think with this I am just going to plan B.

He told me last night that he might as well live her he does everything here but sleep. He spends all his time here... and even though I haven't done plan A long... I have done it well enough that I can rest in that...

I mean he obviously can't make his choice... and if he comes back here now... it will end up just like did tonight...

So what do you all think? Should I start plan B?

heavenlee, I think you are almost ripe for Plan B. He is on the fence but can't make up his mind. I would sure start giving it some thought.

Have you given any thought to counseling with the Harley's? They might be able to put you on the right track.

I would love to... but since I have been out of work due to the cancer... I have had no paycheck for almost two months. I am barely getting by and it will take a while for me to get caught up when I get back to work next week. So I think it would be great and I would love to be able to... but I'm going to have to wait until my checkbook says okay... LOL

Since I haven't been in plan A for the length of time it has been suggested, but I feel I need to give myself some space from my WH, I think a pre-plan B might be in order. He has been out of the house for 3 weeks on Saturday. Since that time, he has been to the house every night but two (one he was out of town on business so he couldn't been home anyway, so I'm saying technically one). The only thing he doesn't do here is sleep... the pain of having him leave every night is tearing me apart and upsetting my kids. I need to limit some of our time together. After his little "phone fiasco" tonight, I am thinking limiting the days he spends with us is in order...sorta a pre-plan B. During his time here I will plan A my a off and the space will do us both some good. Thanks

<small>[ February 23, 2004, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: heavenlee30 ]</small>

Hey Heavenlee, your letter is a little too long I think, but I'm not an expert here. Hopefully some of the pros will offer their advice.

Are you sure you're ready for him to take the kids twice a week? That can be just as difficult for them too. Maybe they can just go out together and then he can bring them home. But especially on a Wed. that is so disruptive to their school. I am a teacher and I've seen lots of kids in this situation and you can always tell the days when they won't be "home". It is really hard for them to go back and forth. Would YOU like to do that? I know I like the comfort of my own home and bed. I think kids do too. I'm all for him spending time with them, but I hesitate on this being the best approach. Anyone else have an opinion?

<small>[ February 22, 2004, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: nid ]</small>

I can't believe that Nid.. I am a teacher too... go figure LOL. WOW another coincidence again. It's like we are starcrossed or something...

My plan is for him to only take them on Friday night. We will spend time together as a family (so I can plan A) on Wednesday, Saturday, Sunday. Monday, Tuesday, Thursday will be spent apart. I think you are right.... I just don't know what to cut LOL. Thanks!!!

There's a light fog between you and your partner, and even though you're comfortable with ambiguity, you might want to make an extra effort to clear the space between you.

This is my WH's horoscope for today... UMMM maybe that's good news LOL...

What you are calling a pre-plan B is a good idea - there's nothing saying you have to always be available when he wants you to be to be in plan A. And personally, I would skip the letter. If you're right about narcissist - or even if you're not right, but he's just in a very, very selfish place right now (and I would say it is at least that, from what you've said,) then a long letter like that, where you're telling him why you're holding you're ground, would not go over well. Talk to him about letting him take the kids. I like the idea of just having them go with him for a while and coming back to spend the night.

Find a support group. Find some friends to do something with. Head out to a gym, or even find a mall or nice park where you can go an walk for an hour or so. Anything, but make it something to work on yourself, and something for you. Find all the movies you've wanted to see, and start going to see them, even if it's by yourself. Do that at least one or two nights a week, and ask him to watch the kids. When he wants to know what's up, just tell him that you have some things to do, you need a little time alone for a change, and you know that he's missing the kids anyway, so you thought that would work out well.

Remember, plan A isn't just about showing him what he's missing, it's working on you. That way, whether he realizes what he's missing or not, or even if you decide that you need to move on, you're in a better place to do it. Right now, it IS all about him. It's that way to him, and you're helping to reinforce that. Now's the time to start making it about you too.

Getting him to take the kids a few nights has the added benefit of injecting some reality into the affair too. Gives him the opportunity to see what being divorced would be like. You can still plan A while doing all this. But I must stress again - plan A is about working on yourself - and part of that is learning not to LB and such, which is the part that will make him want to be with you. But it isn't all for him, so don't make it that. And it needs to be about you being an independent person again too.

Believe me, my STBX was all about what everything was to him. It was his way or no way. And a big part of what led up to everything with us was that I just sort of...disappeared. And when not existing anymore made me unhappy, I took it out on him. My life was no longer dedicated to making him happy - I started complaining about things. Given my situation, I don't think understanding plan A earlier would have helped - I think he had porn and cheating issues that I didn't know about from before we married now. But the more he demanded, the more I gave, and the less I had of me. A real plan A on my part would have probably ended things a lot sooner than the 10 years we were married, but only because I don't think anything was going to change the was he does things - I think he's a serial cheater who refuses to change. But a good plan A would have given me back myself a lot sooner, and that has been one of the best things to come out of all of this for me. I missed being me!

I know you are probably thinking that being with him IS what you want, that it's what you would like to do for you. But you'd be surprised, if you just give yourself a little distance, you may find that a little space really is what you need now, and a chance to do something just for you. It's what you would do in a healthy relationship - go out with your friends once in a while, or take a night off to pamper yourself. It will recharge you, trust me. And though he'll act like you doing things without him is an LB, it isn't. Just make sure you do it in a way that you aren't LBing. "I just realized that maybe part of the problem is that I haven't really been taking care of myself the way I should, and I need some time to work on that."

Heavenlee, when was your D-Day? How long have you been in Plan A?

I would first suggest that you not send any letter until you are 100% ready to go into Plan B and then go into Plan B. You don't want to water down the effect.

Secondly, I would just handle all this in person. Tell him that you want him to start limiting his visits for now and taking the kids with him on some nights.

Also, you don't have to baby him or walk on eggshells with him, just don't convey the message with lovebusters. Say it firmly with a smile. I think sometimes we are too afraid to just say it straight out.

Thanks guys...

Yes I do need to take some time for myself I am reeling from the pain and hurt and have no where to dump it... I need to get it out Maybe the gym will be a good place to start.

I have been in plan A for about 5 weeks.

Thanks for all of the advice I have got to limit my pain, right now.

Originally posted by heavenlee30:
because I just told him exactly what I thought of his girlfriend. The more I think about it... the more I begin to wonder if they don't deserve each other... and I deserve something a hell of a lot better.

I know you are suffering so much ... but I am hoping to suggest a different approach you may want to try.

This statement from my WH was part of what turned him around: (BTW, we are 8 years recovered! I am on these boards to support and give some experience from a survivor's viewpoint)

"I was, in the beginning, imagining a life with OW and how she would make me feel so great. Then, I also began to imagine another man living in my home. loving my wife and kids, and it made me wake up."

Heaven, right now your H is imagining a life where he gets you and the kids, gets to father his kids from your home, but has the benifit of OW to boost his "whoopee" quotent on the side. I seriously doubt he is contemplating a life with her while you are happily married to another man.

Talk to him about this. Ask him if he has ever imagined you re-married and living with another man as a family.

Just pose this question. Don't attempt to help him with the answer.... allow him to rant and rave and struggle with this... Even if he calls you names "selfish" or whatever .... just keep on topic and ask him to imagine this life in 3-5 years.... YOU happily married and another MAN raising the kids with you.

I didn't even bring this up to my H, he thought of it all on his own ..... and I am guessing that one of the subconscious reasons your H wants back into the house if for this very reason.

I am NOT NOT NOT suggesting that you play any games with your H and pretend you are interested in another man at this time, but you can ask him if he has ever imagined this possibility in the next 5 years or so.


Your H is about to break.

Don't talk about OW .... this is an error. it makes him her defender, her white knight, and you just don't appreciate how >gag< lovely and special she is >gag<.

Your H's fantasy right now is to have both you, your family, and OW as part of his life.

Allow the reality of this word to sink in .... "NEVER"...

Ask him, if he ever thinks about this as a possible outcome in 5 years .... YOU are remarried and part of a happy family .... and he gets every other weekend visitation?

Reality bites.

Pep

Too coincidental!

Okay, that sounds pretty good.

How did he respond to your letter? Did you send it?

My H and I had a really nice conversation late last night. No hopes up yet, but its progress.

Thanks Pep...

Your advice has been great.

We have talked about that fact before... he admits that bothers the hell out of him, and I think one of the reasons he's gone from total hate to I do still love you.

I didn't send that letter. I did a short version in which I told him he could have handled the "phone situation" differently, and that I think that maybe we are spending too much time together and that my frustration and sensitivity get higher and higher because i see him everyday with no real decisions on his part.

He said he didn't think that was the solution... he stated that being apart would drive him further away but that if I didn't want to see him, he would stay away.

He agreed about the phone and being able to handle it differently. Right now he's just waffling I think... testing me... seeing if I will give in on the boundaries.

I am just not sure what he wants.

Originally posted by heavenlee30:


I am just not sure what he wants.

Just be sure you know what you want... you don't need to be sure what he wants.. he keeps changing.

Pep