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It has been a month since my wife agreed to read some of the self-help books that I have collected since D-day more than four years ago. I know it wasn’t much in term of progress, but at least it was her first step of this difficult and unforeseen journey. I don’t expect anything out of this, but I hope she would at least learn something from what she’s read.

What do I mean by “do-it-ourselves” counseling? Well, we have been driving to the park near the lake on Saturday or Sunday morning and spending couple hours or so alone reading books or walking in the park. People in the park might wonder or find it odd or strange to see the two of us sitting in the car both reading books. Little that they know, we are reading the self-help books. For me, at least, we’ve finally had a chance to spend a quality time alone (in the park full of people).

Anyway after many chapters and many books, my wife began to realize that her resentment related to sex is still there after all these years. To make a story short, my wife has been trying to figure out why she’s lost her desire to be sexual with me after our second child was born. What led to her affair? And after why the sex thing is still a problem. To her surprise, she still resents the time when she asked me to do a vasectomy after our second child was born and I didn’t. She ended up doing it (because she didn’t want to have any more kids). To her back then, I didn’t seem to care or love her enough to do it. I didn’t seem to care what would happen to her during that procedure. To add to that resentment, she felt that I didn’t make the decision not to do it on my own, but from other people’s point of view (like my siblings or friends).

And that is still bothering her than she realizes and/or every time I touch her, especially in a sexual way. She said that she NEEDs to figure out somehow on how to forgive me on that subject or get over it in order to feel close to me again sexually.

What do you think of that? Is there anything I can do to help her overcome that?

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OOOO - I don't have a suggestion for your question, but this could be the most progress you've reported - ever?

Problems can't be solved until they're identified. You are a patient man!

I look forward to JL's reply...........

WAT

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This is some GREAT progress! Reading books together and spending time at the park together are both big steps in a postive direction. Best of all, your W is doing some serious introspection and sharing her discoveries with you. Fabulous!

Obviously you can't go back and change the past. However, it's clear that from your wife's perspective your (plural) POJA skills were in need of a major overhaul. Maybe you two have done that, maybe not. I'd suggest you let her know you understand how she feels and why, and I think you should ask *her* if she thinks you (plural) need to work on POJA and negotiation.

I think that with a few major decisions decided jointly and negotiated well, your W may begin to let go of that old resentment. I also think that simply having realized where the resentment is coming from will help her let go of it.

This is such fabulous news.

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OOOO,

YOur W read some of the books & has come up with a problem, unbelievable.

I hope she is really trying and just not trying to put you off until she is ready for a D. sorry to be negative.....

You know I hope only the best for you......

And a side not to you and Wat......my OS just returned from Spring Break in Singapore....he had a wonderful time and I am slowly learning to let go........thanks to you both and many others who cyberly held my hand 3 yrs ago when all parts of my life were falling apart.....

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OoOoOoOo

Bear with me cause I feel a tangent coming on... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

All right...lets just be as logical and grownup about this as we can...

To her surprise, she still resents the time when she asked me to do a vasectomy after our second child was born and I didn’t. She ended up doing it (because she didn’t want to have any more kids). To her back then, I didn’t seem to care or love her enough to do it. I didn’t seem to care what would happen to her during that procedure. To add to that resentment, she felt that I didn’t make the decision not to do it on my own, but from other people’s point of view (like my siblings or friends).

OK so realistically as grownups what can we do about the above....
here's some options I see...

1. what she is saying holds truth and you have or are planning to apoligize for those actions that caused her hurt....AND you have made great leaps and bounds that your wife believes that that person (that YOU) no longer exists...and the YOU that is in front of her now would never do those actions again...

2. What she is saying holds no truth and is irrelevant based on the fact
you can't change the past...
and the real issue again would be whether or not she believes the person INFRONT her her today...YOU is iether that same person or not...
and if not...then she has to realize, and accept that that was then and this is now...
so if what she is saying is not truth there is no point in powerstruggling it...

3. That regardless of the past she still holds the power to decide whether or not these things have great power over her...they are not entities of themselves...and only hold meaning when we feed into that meaning....

here's my tangent...

no matter what spin people place on this day and age......we have it easier than anyother previous generation...and it only gets better...and yet we create this environment of victimization...

that if we don't have "issues" and things to cling to...then our lives would be God forbid happy....

OoOoOoOoOo...
your wife is in my prayers...honestly...I don't know what else to say...
so much of this is simple choices that she makes over and over again...
and unfortunately the choices she is making now are ones that keep her from being a happy person...because even happiness is a choice...

ARK

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OOOO,

Well, at least she is reading. If she thinks that she has identified the problem, then keep a watch out that she continues making progress. Don't let it be another stall tactic, where she says "ah, this is the problem" and then she stagnates for another couple of years until you force her to become even more creative.
If she feels that she knows what the problem is and how to solve it, then you should expect action. If she doesn't know how to get past it, then she has an unrefutable reason to go to therapy.

cleo

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OOOO,

I read your post and had my mind just split. In half of my mind, this seems like great progress. That perhaps she is finally seeing what she has done, and is willing to at least consider counseling. That maybe there is hope.

The other have just said "oh! brother" she has managed to shift all of the blame to you again. Please allow me to explain </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> To her surprise, she still resents the time when she asked me to do a vasectomy after our second child was born and I didn’t.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is one of MY greats peeves in this world when someone decides that an action should be taken for their benefit, and then they demand that some other person take the action. I mention this because what you are reading is my bias here. She did not want more children so the solution is that YOU go under the knife. Apparently, you were not sold on ending at two.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She ended up doing it (because she didn’t want to have any more kids). To her back then, I didn’t seem to care or love her enough to do it. I didn’t seem to care what would happen to her during that procedure.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The great irony here is that she made a decisions that SHE did not want more children. She is mad because SHE had to handle her own demands. What makes this ironic is that she then has an affair AND she refuses to have sex with you, which meant that she really didn't need to have the procedure performed. Is this making sense to you??


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> To add to that resentment, she felt that I didn’t make the decision not to do it on my own, but from other people’s point of view (like my siblings or friends).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Really? It was a crime to seek outside advice? I guess that explains why she has not gone to counselors all of these years, why she moved you out of the bedroom over a decade ago, why she had an affair, why she has not been a W to you for over 4 years. It was because she could rely on herself to make good decisions WITHOUT outside opinions.

My point in pointing all of this out is that I do think there is some progress, but she is still unwilling to take any responsibilities for HER decisions, but blames you for NOT responding to HER decision that you should have the vasectomy.

I see progress in that things are being voiced. I don't see progress because what she is voicing is still that YOU are the one that makes mistakes, NOT her. I think she needs serious counseling and I don't think she will get it because the "do it yourself" counseling suits here well. She gets a revelation and can blame all of the stuff on you. You cannot fight back without shutting down the "do it yourself" stuff and she doesn't have to deal with an independent party telling her she has made some bad decisions and that her thoughts are messed up.

You are safe, you are defenseless, and therefore she can make it look like she is trying while still doing what she has always done: Blame you.

Please see if you can convince her to get with a GOOD counselor to address this sex issue. Once there perhaps the counselor can address the deeper issues I suspect she has, like the need to control you and all around her.

OOOO, I don't want to be a downer, but I fear this post is. I see changes, and in some cases ANY changes are better than the status quo. Yet, I see the same patterns. I hope I am wrong. Please get a professional involved if you can.

God Bless,

JL

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I knew I could count on JL for a good analysis.

It reminds me of my WSs reaction when I asked her why she felt it was necessary for her to move out of the house (since she WASN'T having an affair <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ):

"I HAVE to move out - you are making me do it because it was YOUR decision NOT to move."

WAT

<small>[ March 15, 2004, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

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Oh, WAT! I feel like I've been here a really long time now, because I remember that conversation with your wife like it was just yesterday! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

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Thank you all for your insight.

When it comes to half-full half-empty my brain splits in half too. I don’t know what else to say.

Basically, I kind of said to her that I felt it was/is a little too late for me to look forward seeing our future together because I see no change in her ever.

Her response was “again you’ve never looked beyond what I have changed to improve how I feel about you; if I give you an inch you want a yard.”

She also said that even though it has been four years since this life event happened, to her, she wasn’t ready to work on the relationship until the last few months. She said things take time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Oh! About seeking professional help, I kept saying that to her. First, she was concerned about money; I said that was not an issue. Now she says she is concerned about confidential issue. She said what if after several years later they don’t destroy the file properly and her issues become opened and other people may know about and some may say something to our kids or grand kids, and bla bla bla…

OMG, she is paranoid or what. Kookoo, kookoo

Basically, she doesn’t care what people do, but she cares what they think about her or see in her.

Back to the vasectomy issue, first of all, birth control pills made her sick after our first child. Then, condom smelt or turned her off. Then, counting days our second child was born (accident happened). And finally, she lost her desire to have sex and didn’t really want it any more, but I still wanted sex, I should be the one who has it cut, not her. And again, not only I refused to do it, but also listened to somebody else. That made her so mad about sex.

Oh! About her affair, she said it just happened. She thought it was just a friendly lunch and then things led to one another and kaboom.

When I said to her if she realized how much she’s hurt me, she said she knew darn well because she intended to hurt me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

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OOOO,

My mother has very serious mental health issues. Each of the excuses your wife gave for not getting professional help are excuses my mother gave. In addition to that, my mother thinks that WE (the family) are the ones with the problem not her. She always places blame ANYWHERE but on herself. I don't think she does this on purpose but that it is part of her illness.
It's possible that your wife has something similar going on. She is very defensive to anything you say. It might just take you giving her an ultimatum. Enough is enough. If you do that, be prepared to follow through. That might be the only way she will ever do something about herself.

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Cleo,
I thought about the mental issues before. What popped up in my head was Bipolar Disorder or Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

And lately, she seemed to forget things or come up with words.

In term of ultimatum, like I said earlier, I’ve kind of already given that. It was more like a semi-ultimatum. She DID say that by this summer if she can not find the way to forgive me on this old resentment then divorce will only be an option if I still want it.

She asked if somehow I can find her books to read on how to forgive. Are there any books out there about forgiveness, especially related to sexuality?


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