i have been over on the recovery board for just a little while and realized im not ready to be there yet. almost a year now since i confirmed that my W was having an affair with the guy i thot was a good friend of mine. of course i heard the usual "i never intended for it to happen, it just happened" line. she stayed with me and the kids because she said she had nowhere to go to figure out what she wanted to do. she had planned to leave us all behind for him, but he sent her home and he went back to his wife.

without any doubt, i wasnt doing a lot of things that i should have been doing. so far, everything that she has pointed out that i was doing wrong, i have made big changes and continue to make improvements. the thing that is startting to get to me more and more, is that she hasnt changed anything except to stop the affair. i have no reason to believe that she has any contact with him anymore, but i am also certain its only because he wont have anything to do with her.
now im the bad guy for ruining her one chance at happiness.
i had this feeling over the weekend, that im like a kid that feels like if they are good enough, mom and dad wont get a divorce. if i am good enough to her and for her, maybe she will stay around and not do it again.
i vowed i wouldnt let this turn me into a bitter person, but i am having a seriously hard time with just that.
she has apologized, and i do forgive her, altho i have to remind myself on a daily basis that it is a decision and not a feeling.
the lack of remorse, or should i say apparent lack of remorse does start to get to me. she still treasures the relationship because it was "so special." puke
i have started working out, started a new business, and try like crazy to stay occupied so my mind dosent go there. i do have a regular appointment with a C, but she doesnt think she needs to go.
she feels attacked. the one time she did go with me, the affair wasnt even mentioned. it was all about us. what we need to be doing. both of us. but she still feels as if the spotlight is on her.
she wants to go back to "the way things used to be" but when i suggested that we are where we are because of the way things were, she didnt want to hear that either.

im just tired, i guess. sick and tired of always having to make sure im on my best behavior.

i know she has issues too, i would like to know if there is anything i can do to help her get past herself and think about others.
she wont come to this site, and is upset if she finds out im here. insists that all it does is keep things alive in my mind and makes it impossible to move on. i try to tell her what she could do to help me move on, but of the three things i have suggested, she has yet to do any one of them.

yes i am frustrated and im rambling a bit, but i dont know where else to go.
any suggestions would be appreciated.

Have you checked out the emotional needs questionnaire? You need to be trying to meet hers. Usually women wander because their emotional needs are not being met - that is why she "treasures" her relationship with OM.

Also your marriage could move forward and be much better than before. However it won't until she gets on board.

What I would do is try to meet her EN's for a short period of time, and then confront her with the fact that you are stuck. That she needs to get involved, or no progress will be made.

good question. i have filled out the en questionare, she wont. i have asked her what i could do that would show her i love her. she dosent have any idea.

i have told her i feel stuck as long as she has no input, and all she can tell me is that its my problem, deal with it.

the old noggin is getting bloody from the brick wall.......

Keith,
I've seen your question posted before. The best response that I've seen is to do the following: Look at the EN's questionaire. If you really have no clue about her top three needs make some assumptions based upon your relationship and from what you know about her relationship w/OM. Did it start as a friendship? If so, then she liked the "conversation" that he gave her and that is a need that he filled. Take one of the needs that is one of your your top 5 guesses and one at a time put them in to practice for a week or so. Depending on how she responds you'll be able to determine if it's an important need for her.

Later you can ake her if she enjoyed spending time together in conversation or whatever.

My wife's top three needs were Conversation, Financial (of course she's a woman) and Affection.

BTW, most woman don't have SF in their top 3 unlike the men. LOL

Give it a try!

cwmac

BTW, relationship talks and affair related items don't count under the label Conversation. It should be fun or informative. Get to know each other agian just like when you were dating. Talk about the future if she'll go there.

cwmac

Keith_03,

You sound like you are EXACTLY where I was once. My H's EA was long gone, I was busting my tail trying to figure out what his top EN's were, I was avoiding LB's. I was certain there was NC... so why did I feel so stuck?

My H was like your W - the EA was over, done with, he was repentant and remorseful (truly), he had no contact with her... what's the point of dragging it out again? Everything was "fine" and he wouldn't fill out the EN questionnaire. There was nothing else I could do to make him feel more loved. You describe it all better than I can but other than that I could have written the exact same post you just did.

Let me tell you what I did, so you don't make the same mistake. Let me also tell you what I wish I'd done instead.

I figured my H just wasn't a "touchy feely" guy, and that he flat wasn't going to do the relationship talks. Heck, he TOLD me as much! I tried to be "good enough" for months. I read books on affair recovery. I hung out here. I recovered myself as much as I could, but alone I couldn't fully recover our M. I wanted an intimate, totally-open M and I felt like I couldn't even TALK to my H about what was "missing". I wasn't sure what was missing myself, exactly. Our M was better than any other I knew. I decided my expectations were unrealistic. I accepted what we had (and I *was* happy, for 3 or 4 months).

I fell for a guy who'd been a friend of mine for a couple of years. Saw the warning signs, the red flags, and despite NOT wanting to go there, ended up with an inappropriate friendship. Nothing physical, no talks of leaving my H to be with him, nothing like that. But I was putting the OM before my H in my thoughts. So I had to end the friendship and that really hurt. I also told my H, and that really hurt us both. Several times I thought we were doomed. It was horrible.

What I WISH I'd done, and what I suggest to you, is that you tell your wife you're stuck. That you're not happy with the M the way it is. That you don't want either of you to end up in an A or leaving. That you are in danger of losing your love for her, and need her help. That you want a good, strong, M. Tell her this is IMPORTANT to you. Be brutally honest.

If it were me, I'd put those three suggestions before her again, and ask her (don't demand) to please pick one she is willing to do with you. If she is totally closed to those three, the two of you should come up with something you both can agree to. Don't let it go. Don't brush all this under the rug. I cannot stress how important it is that you DO continue exactly what you're doing.

Whatever you do get her to agree to, take it slowly. Don't let it be a punishment or something she dreads. Have lots of fun while you're working on the M.

My H and I are now on the same track. We're slowly reading "Fall in Love, Stay in Love" - we read once or twice a week, for about an hour (the first time I suggested we read it, he flopped down in a chair, heaved a HUGE sigh, and said "Oh, F***" - so you can see my H wasn't real open to this, just like your W isn't right now). Sometimes we only get a page or so read because we talk so much. It's still a roller coaster but the ups are lasting longer and the downs are shorter and don't come as frequently.


Another thing I just noticed - your W really feels attacked. Your post made that abundantly clear. Perhaps she has not yet come to grips with what she did. Perhaps the feelings of persecution are her own guilt. It wouldn't hurt, though, for you to examine the ways in which you interact with her and re-read the info about LBs. You don't want to be throwing out any disrespectful judgments or making any demands or threats.

thanks turtlehead
i needed that. just knowing im not the only one that is in this situation helps more than i imagined it would.
like you, i had a friendship with a person that i confided in. she is a business associate but lives 850 miles away and we have never met. when my W found out about it, she accused me of having an EA. and yes, i guess it was. it did last for a couple of weeks and was dropped. anytime her A comes up, she reminds me of my EA.

as for her feeling attacted, i think you are dead right. there is just no show of remorse whatsoever.
i will continue to do what i have been doing and just keep my shoulder to the wheel.

it is really amazing to me how my attitude is affected in such a positve way by having somewhere to vent and know that someone truly understands what im in.

thanks turtlehead
i needed that. just knowing im not the only one that is in this situation helps more than i imagined it would.
like you, i had a friendship with a person that i confided in. she is a business associate but lives 850 miles away and we have never met. when my W found out about it, she accused me of having an EA. and yes, i guess it was. it did last for a couple of weeks and was dropped. anytime her A comes up, she reminds me of my EA.

as for her feeling attacted, i think you are dead right. there is just no show of remorse whatsoever.
i will continue to do what i have been doing and just keep my shoulder to the wheel.

it is really amazing to me how my attitude is affected in such a positve way by having somewhere to vent and know that someone truly understands what im in.

Keith_03,

I'm glad my post encouraged you. You'd be surprised how many people end up in a "revenge" A, either out of anger and a desire to get even or out of not handling recovery well. I've read a couple of posts here from people who were considering having an A themselves to "build their self esteem" or other trumped up nonsense. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Be VERY careful who you confide in - you should never confide in a female (guess you knew that, though, huh?). In my situation I never "confided" to the OM. I never said anything to him I wouldn't have said with my H there (until the goodbye, I'm ashamed to say) I talked about my H frequently and positively. We discussed daily things - meals, child rearing, house renovation. Even so, the *feeling* that I could talk to OM safely, and the *feeling* that I couldn't talk to my H safely led to big problems.

Continue talking to your W. Let her know how important this is to you. If you can get her to work through *something* with you, that will be a great victory. All you need is that first step. If she flat refuses, you'll at least know you did your part in communicating honestly with her about how you're feeling.

I got to the point that I was so frustrated I felt like I should leave. Things weren't horrible, in fact they were good -- but I didn't feel like we had a M that was intimate and safe from future As. I didn't trust that the good times would last. I didn't feel safe talking to my H and NO WAY was I going to go through another A. So I got firmer, put my foot down (what did I have to lose?) and politely let him know that this was very important to me. He agreed to read the book and I think he's understanding a LOT more about where I'm coming from, though he understands it intellectually and may never empathize. I'm okay with that, because you know what?

The best part of all is that now I know I can go to my H and tell him the good stuff, the inconsequential stuff, and the bad stuff -- and if it's the "bad stuff" I know he may react badly at first (we're all human) but I know now he'll stick by me. I know he values ME and our M. I know he's learning to avoid the LBs that hurt me so badly. We have the tools to approach problems now whereas we didn't before. I think we've learned now that when our spouse comes to us with the "bad stuff" it's really a gift of trust and honesty. We tend to appreciate the messages with "bad stuff" now, instead of punishing each other for them. I hope this lasts, because it is GOOD.

finally back!! things have been very busy at work and i have just been snowed.
but things arent going so well at home. i feel as if im always on edge. she has taken all the reading material that i have gathered in the last yr and put it up on a shelf behind other things so she cant see them.
she wants things to "go back to the way they were before" and i dont want that.
how can i let her know that that is not acceptable to me without it turning into a LB??
she is talking a lot about the future, however, she is doing some things that she was doing while the A was going on, and it makes me wonder if there is something going on again. i dont think there is any contact but i wonder.
she insists that i have to trust her. i did once and got bit.
can i ask her if she has contact without appearing not to trust her??
should i just blindly trust she is telling me the truth now??
as long as she refuses to talk about it at all, is there anything i can do that im not already doing??
i find my love for her is shrinking and i dont want that to happen.
i feel so lost

Hidey-Ho, Keith_03.

How can you let her know that tossing everything under the rug (or behind stuff on the closet shelf) is not acceptable to you, without it becoming a LB? By explaining how YOU feel, and making a polite request. Don't demand she do this. Don't insinuate anything about her or her character should she decide not to do this (DJ).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she insists that i have to trust her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BZZT! Wrong answer, thanks for playing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

SHE has to EARN your trust. You don't give it to her.
What kinds of things is she doing that she did before, that make you wonder? These are the things that cause you not to trust her. You can explain this to her in a non-confrontational way, and avoid LBs. You can't control whether she hears you, well, that's up to her.

For example, she keeps her email account locked and off-limits to you. Rather than accusing her or blaming her "You always lock up your email account, what are you trying to hide?", you could leave her out of the equation and present your feelings, then make a polite request "The fact that your email account remains locked concerns and frightens me (or angers or whatever). I would very much appreciate it if the account were open to me. Would you please share your password with me?"

You can't demand that she read the materials. You can just explain to her that this is something YOU really need in order for YOU to heal and move on. Tell her that you need her help, and ask if she would please join you.

After that, it's pretty much up to her to decide to get on board or not. If she decides not to, it's up to you to decide if you want to stay in or not <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I got to the point where I really, really wanted to Plan B my H - and his EA was almost two years in the past! I wanted to kick him out and write a Plan B letter laying out the conditions under which he'd be allowed back. Instead of NC with the OP, I wanted a commitment to work through the books, to do the questionnaires, etc. Everyone here advised me against it, but I sure FELT like I wanted it.

In the end, I just got really firm about the fact that I was *stuck*, I needed his help to proceed, and I politely requested (more than once) that he join me. Luckily for me, he did, and for the last few weeks things have been going swimmingly. If he hadn't though, I think I'd have opted to move on w/o him because I wasn't willing to have the "old" M back. I wanted better.

I've rambled; don't know if it's helped or not.

i knew i could count on you, TH. and thanks.

im planning to sit down with her tonight after she gets home from her appt. with her counselor.
lay it out like you suggested and see what she does with it.
if i ask her for her help to get "unstuck" is that pleading?? she already thinks i need to grow a spine. maybe it will grow in ways she doesnt like too well.

im feeling the way i did a year ago before i knew for sure what was going on. when we are together, i have a tough time talking about anything. i feel as if im gonna be overwhelmed with the feelings i have, that she dosent want to talk about.
i want to talk about US and dont know how to approach the subject without her tuning me out. but really, what have i got to lose??

im gonna be giving it a shot anyhow and see where it all lands.

ill let y'all know what happens.

Keith,

You have been getting great advice from TH. I would like to refer you to two major tools that Harley pushes HARD. That is "radical honesty" and the Policy of Joint Agreement, POJA.

Radical honesty does just mean she needs to be honest with you. It means you must be honest with her. TH has been telling you this in a gentle way. I will just give you a MB 2x4 whack. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You MUST be honest with her about your feelings concerning the MARRIAGE. However not I said marriage. It is her job to examine her behaviors to understand why you feel as you do.

Next, let me address this "spine" thing. It has been my observation that when people say grow a spine they often don't have one themselves. Your W surely has not demonstrated a spine. You have. IT takes a lot of "spine" to endure what you have and keep trying. However, you are right if you grow a "spine" as she thinks she may not like it.

Finally, go with your gut. If you feel her pulling away something is up. Express your feelings about this, your concern about this and ask for an explanation of any specific actions that you interpret as pulling away. If she attacks you, then look her in the eye and say: "I see by your response that you are hiding something, are you going to finally be honest with me?"

Being honest, but respectful is within Plan A, and really is NOT an LB. However, that doesn't mean she may not like your boundaries. Set you boundaries. Please go over to In Recovery section and read Star*fish's response to fellow there as she explains what plan A is really about. In fact, I'll just bookmark it for you just click on this Star*fish's comments

Please read what she has to say. I think this along with what TH has been saying to you will help.

Good luck with your talk tonight.

JL

well we had a talk. kinda. she was rescued by the phone, but not before i was informed that this is life, deal with it. as she put it, "you are looking for some big,moving religious experience, and its not gonna happen."
she thinks that the only time i want to talk about anything is when im feeling "stuck" or depressed.
not quite true, but i do think about this a lot. bottom line, she doesnt believe there is anything to discuss and i just need to move on with life.
i tried to tell her that i need her help to move on but it didnt make much of an impact. dont know if she heard it or not.
anyway, the phone rang and she jumped for that, which ended our conversation.
this morning, shes acting just all happy as if nothing was ever said. just ignore it and sweep it under the carpet and i just cant do that indefinitly.

any ideas????!!!!!!!!!!
i am feeling ever more lost. i am finding myself feeling that its not worth it anymore.

well we had a talk. kinda. she was rescued by the phone, but not before i was informed that this is life, deal with it. as she put it, "you are looking for some big,moving religious experience, and its not gonna happen."
she thinks that the only time i want to talk about anything is when im feeling "stuck" or depressed.
not quite true, but i do think about this a lot. bottom line, she doesnt believe there is anything to discuss and i just need to move on with life.
i tried to tell her that i need her help to move on but it didnt make much of an impact. dont know if she heard it or not.
anyway, the phone rang and she jumped for that, which ended our conversation.
this morning, shes acting just all happy as if nothing was ever said. just ignore it and sweep it under the carpet and i just cant do that indefinitly.

any ideas????!!!!!!!!!!
i am feeling ever more lost. i am finding myself feeling that its not worth it anymore.

Keith_03,

Can you fill us in a little more about the talk? I can kind of understand your W's reaction if all you got to say was "I'm not happy with our M." Maybe what you are presenting to her is too vague.

Did you specifically address the locked email account? If so, what was her reaction? (She DOES do this, right? It's not in this post so maybe I'm confused <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

In your first post you said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i try to tell her what she could do to help me move on, but of the three things i have suggested, she has yet to do any one of them.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What were those three things? Did you get an opportunity to present these to her again? If so, what was her reaction?

How did you let her know you were feeling that something is somehow missing? That she is pulling away?

(as a blatant aside remark to JL - WOW, you are one of my fave-o-rite posters and to hear you say I am on target really made my day)

Keith... wish I had some suggestions for you. And, I must admit, I'm speaking from the jaundiced perspective of somebody whose marriage is ending.

I had some of the same feelings shortly after I moved out in November. I'd spent the month before the move emotionally distancing from her, sleeping on the couch, not touching her, etc. A week after I moved out I went to Vegas with some friends, and had a great time. Then she phoned me on day 3 of the trip, started a fight, and then we had a 1.5 hour, tearful conversation in which she said she wanted me back, that she'd been really impressed with me in the last two months or so, I'd lost weight, started going to the gym, stopped "asking her permission" before I made plans (i.e. kind of stopped giving a sh*t what she thought).

I responded by saying that what I was hearing from her was, "good little doggie, now you can come back." We had several more discussions about reconciliation after that, and the last one ended about a month and a half ago. (There aren't going to be any more, as far as I'm concerned.)

In each of the discussions we did have, one recurrent theme of mine was my worry that I'd come back and spend the rest of my life feeling like I was walking along the edge of a cliff that could give way at any moment. One foot wrong, she gets unhappy and either leaves or decides to f**k away her troubles yet again.

Nobody should have to live like that. At least in my case, she was repentant (or outwardly, at least -- long story short, she'd been "caught" about a year earlier, and not by me, so who knows if she actually was repentant).

In my case, it would be impossible to go back to "the way things used to be" because the last time they were uncorrupted by her deception and cheating was over a year before the marriage. I said to her many times when we were trying to fix the marriage that I'd love to reach a point where we were together, genuinely happy and faithful, and in which the past wasn't gone but it didn't bother me anymore. But I realized about a month ago that none of that is attainable in my situation.

Sometimes, you have to cut your losses, chalk up the past to a massive lesson painfully learned, and start over. I'm not saying you should do that... just offering my $0.02.

Good luck brother...

no, turtle, i didnt have a chance to bring up the email acct with her this time. the last time i did, she told me it made her uncomfortable to let me have access to her computer because of the fact that i had installed spyware on it before. and thats when i busted her. she says its not that she has anything to hide, it just feels like an invaision of privacy.
i do understand the feeling, but it seems to me that if i was trying to establish trust, anything would be open.

the big thing i have asked from her, is just to be touched. and it dosent have to be sexual, but just a touch on the arm or shoulder. any physical contact would be welcome. she says she dosent have warm fuzzies and it just makes her uncomfortable because she isnt a touchy feely kind of person. certainly not what her emails to OM suggested.

if i dont kiss her when i leave for work in the morning, she thinks im playing mind games. but she makes no effort to greet me when i come home either. last night when the kids and i came back from out of town, she was in bed and didnt bother getting up to meet us even if it wasnt late.
when were in bed, i will roll over to talk to her, and reach out to touch her or take her hand and she stiffens. when it comes to sex......forget it. the few times i have mada an attempt at being amourous, i get the feeling of "just get this over with" without anything being said. the one thing i keep thinking about is from the movie "Pretty woman" where julia roberts says that youre not supposed to kiss the johns because you might get emotionally attached. well, she wont kiss me.. i kinda feel like a john. its just pity sex.
thats when i start sliding downhill again, thinking im second best, because she certainly participated with OM!!

i suppose i will always wonder if she dosent view me as second rate, no matter what happens.

dont think i want to spend the rest of my life married to someone that makes me feel that way.

i know im rambling, but your feedback would be appreciated. it does help me stay a bit more focused when i have someone else point out the flaws in my thinking.
later

she says its not that she has anything to hide, it just feels like an invaision of privacy.
My H said these exact same words. I could understand his point. I really wanted the gesture, though. He finally said I could look at the list of emails but he strongly preferred I not read the contents. This allowed me to see he wasn't sending/receiving to "her" but allowed him to maintain his privacy. I agreed.

Things changed at our 2nd DDay anniversary. This year (last month, in fact) I was paranoid, anxious, jumpy. I'd wake up, unable to sleep, and go find him watching TV or messing around on the computer, and I'd curl up by him and pull a blanket over me. Just needed to be near him, you know? Anyway, a couple of things happened that really made me anxious (can't remember now exactly what) and although I was 98% certain it was coincidence, I went and listed out his Intray and his Sent messages folder. I felt so sick about that - nervous, churning stomach, you know the drill. So later on that day I told him that I'd been having a really hard time, told him what set me off (the coincidental things), and told him I'd checked his Intray. I was crying, because I felt so weak. I was ashamed, but I wanted him to know. I told him I felt weak, and ashamed. He said "Your peace of mind is more important than my privacy; you can read the emails if you want to."

I think, though, that this was the result of some very tough candidness on my own part. I've been working very hard on being nakedly honest with him about my ups and downs. I'm getting pretty good at not LBing so I think he's beginning to hear my fears without feeling attacked. Plus it's been a bit over two years and he's beginning to relax some about it. He has a long way to go before he can forgive himself, poor baby, but he doesn't bristle like he once did.

So, in summary, I think Radical Honesty, avoiding LBs, and sweet time are really helping us out.

Maybe you guys could POJA the email thing? Let her know you understand her need for privacy, and let her know you need reassurance, and sit down together and brainstorm how you could each get what you need. I mean, it's not really about the emails. It's about security (yours) and freedom/privacy (hers). Maybe she'd go for letting you list the tray but not read the contents (this was actually my H's suggestion, and it really surprised me).

the big thing i have asked from her, is just to be touched. and it dosent have to be sexual, but just a touch on the arm or shoulder. any physical contact would be welcome. she says she dosent have warm fuzzies and it just makes her uncomfortable because she isnt a touchy feely kind of person. certainly not what her emails to OM suggested.

Maybe you can let her know *how* you like to be touched. This, too, is high on my list of ENs. I have told my H specific things he does (or wasn't doing) that I really like. I told him a couple of times. "Hey, you know what I *really* like? blah blah blah" or "Oooh, when you do blah blah blah, that's really nice." When he DOES do one of those things, I make sure to squeeze his hand or go "mmmmm" or thank him.

Also, it might help to acknowledge to her that she's being honest with you about her fuzzy feelings (well the lack of them).

I hope you only say things like "certainly not what her emails to OM suggested" here. I hope you don't say that to her. That would come across as a real big withdrawal to me.

last night when the kids and i came back from out of town, she was in bed and didnt bother getting up to meet us even if it wasnt late.

How do you deal with this? If you dont' say anything, but just stew and fume, that's not Radical Honesty. If you ask her why she didn't, that could come across as a veiled accusation. Even if you say "I'd really have liked it if you came to meet us" that might come across as whiney but maybe not. I don't have an answer here, but you *should* say something. Maybe simply admit to her that it hurts, even if you know she's wrapped up in a book, and ask for her understanding.

If you can get the two of you laughing at *you* and how amazing it is, some of the places that insecurities creep in, well, maybe she'd feel less guilty. Try to verbalize your feelings but don't let it get too heavy. Then next time she'd be free to come make a big deal out of greeting you, as a joke, and the ice would be broken. Things get too depressing and serious sometimes.

thats when i start sliding downhill again, thinking im second best, because she certainly participated with OM!!

Again, I hope you're only venting here and not to her like this. Is it possible she stiffens and doesn't want to kiss you because she's afraid of what YOU are thinking? Have you two explored this together?

I think you guys "just" need a lot of practice with opening up in an honest but non-threatening manner. It's a very hard thing to learn, and you have to work at it. Lord knows it's been hard for me and Mr. Turtlehead. But suddenly in the last few months, I think we're making headway. Keep chipping away, Keith_03. Keep trying, and really be careful to avoid coming across as accusing. I dont' think you ARE, at ALL - but to a guilt ridden WS every little thing feels like an accusation sometimes. They're so busy beating themselves up they think the rest of the world must be, too. Try focusing on how you feel, and asking for her understanding and support. Ask for her ideas on how you (plural) can address your feelings. And keep it light when possible.

i love reading your response, TH. seeing how i sound from someone elses perspective, certainly helps.
first, NO! i dont mention anything about the om when im feeling down. about no participation etc. YES! i was venting. i am learning to do that here and it certainly helps.
on the email thing, she simply refuses to hear anything about it. period.

things have taken a bit of a turn here and im not sure what to think.
we have quite a bit of debt that could be eliminated if we were to sell our house and rent an apt. for a while. which is something i suggested about 6 months ago. finances is one of her BIG ENs.
suddenly out of the blue, she is talking about doing just that, sell the house, pay off debt, and work on saving to buy another house.
my question is, is she trying to get rid of everything so we dont have the hassles of splitting assets, or is she trying to better our financial picture now??
i hate the fact that i seem so cynical, but it makes me wonder. im not sure how to ask her such a question in a way that it dosent set her off. but at the same time, i have kinda resigned myself to the idea that a divorce seems inevitable unless there are some changes.
if that is indeed the way things go, selling the house now may not be a bad idea. if her heart is in the right place, it still isnt a bad idea, i guess.
gees!!!!! i hate being short of funds and worrying about this other crap at the same time.

turlehead--u made mention of the fact that it has been 2 yrs since your dday.
did you go thru all this stuff for 2 yrs or was there a time or a stretch of times in there that things went along pretty well??
i keep hoping it will get a little better with time.
it never ceases to amaze me how many triggers there are that constantly keep popping up, especially music. the radio is playing all day at work and its a constant barrage of "their" music.

im rambling again so ill shut up for a while