Yes, I confronted the OW several times. Each time had more of an effect. First time was dday, OWH and I confronted them together. That time I was mostly crying and asking her and my H how could they? I was a mess.

Second, third and fourth times I got a firmer with her. Never threatened physical violence but made it clear she wasn't going to get my H. My H even confronted her at my request once and tape recorded the conversation. I wanted her to know that he felt that what they did was the biggest mistake of his life. I wanted no illusions left down the road for her...heard too many stories about OW making contact months or years down the road. I wanted her fantasy destroyed.

Boy you should have heard the uproad and varying advise we got on that thread. Think is was around Jan/Feb of 2003 on the Recovery Board.

Melody...I suggested hiring the PI to confront Nid's H with proof he couldn't refute. So far he has been a mastermind manipulator like my H was. For me I had to find something that I could confront him with that he couldn't wiggle out of.

That's the way the early stages of our recovery worked...I couldn't back down...if I gave an inch he took a mile.

All BS's look for the magical bullet that gives our WS the "light bulb" moment. Maybe Nid taking the proactive approach of going Plan B before he moves out and hiring a PI for the irrefutable proof..might bring on his light bulb moment. Maybe he'll understand that he doesn't hold all the cards and that decisions aren't entirely his.

Everytime my H got defenisive in those early days after dday and his committment to NC with my snooping I would explain that I wasn't trying to catch him in something..I was hoping to find nothing. I was looking for peace of mind.

When he would get ugly and tell me that I would have to just trust him and that if I couldn't there was no hope for us...I would just tell him that when he gave me as much reason to trust him as he'd given me to not trust him...maybe I could stop...but for now...I needed to do this in order to stay sane.

Funny thing was...once he no longer had anything to hide...he became an open book. Since about 2 months after dday and to this day...he encourages me to check up on him whenever I get a little scared or have a trigger. He gives me his cell phone, encourages me to follow him, offers additional polygraph's, etc. The more open he is the easier and quicker I calm down.

Nid..as I've said before I really think your H is one of the one's who does love you...I think he is just a scared little boy right now. He needs someone to be strong for him.

My H IC said that my H's inner child was in control for most of the A and for the first few weeks after dday. Just like a child needs their parents to set boundaries and be consistent...so does a temporarily insane/fog bound WS.

FT, I agree 100% that she should hire a P.I., but we are not talking about that kind of snooping here. We are talking about snooping to determine if he is calling the OW. She knows he is, so there is no reason to continue to snoop to only confirm what she already knows. It is a waste of time.

On the other hand, if she had a P.I. or tapped the phones with Radio Shack listening devices [my suggestion] she would have something SUBSTANTIAL that wouldn't be a waste of time.

I definitely agree with that...unfortunately I was the obessive type to so I can relate to Nid.

So yes Nid hire a PI and try to stop torturing yourself with the phone...it didn't do me any good any..he was a sneaky devil when he was fogbound.

He used 800 numbers and Onstar to trick me...the smarter I got the tricker he got.

I don't think he can fool a PI so please seriously consider that route.

As for moving out, he says he's not waiting. But so far he hasn't done any real looking, though he keeps talking about it. Financially, we can't really afford it. I wonder if thats preventing him.

Should I give him the Plan B letter before he moves out? Or if I wait till he moves out, do I plan A for another week or two until he's settled?

<small>[ March 20, 2004, 08:34 PM: Message edited by: wontgiveupyet ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by wontgiveupyet:
<strong>

As for moving out, he says he's not waiting. But so far he hasn't done any real looking, though he keeps talking about it. Financially, we can't really afford it. I wonder if thats preventing him.

Should I give him the Plan B letter before he moves out? Or if I wait till he moves out, do I plan A for another week or two until he's settled? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would Plan A until he is out, but I would ask him to leave now, Nid. Does he have any friends he can stay with?

He doesn't really have any one he would feel comfortable imposing upon.

So as soon as he's out, go to Plan B? Its going to suck. Right when BB is starting. We've always enjoyed doing the line up together and strategizing about the games. Its going to be the worst season for all of us, including my S who is beginning to cop quite the attitude.

My H really wants us to remain in close contact after he moves out. He is said, I'll still be here, we can talk anytime, I can come over, etc. How can I shut the door on him especially if this really is about finding himself? Don't I need to be here? If I'm not he will definitely turn to OW! Unless of course, I send her the email and it has some effect.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by wontgiveupyet:

My H really wants us to remain in close contact after he moves out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly. He wants to have his needs met in 2 places if he can get away with it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He is said, I'll still be here, we can talk anytime, I can come over, etc. How can I shut the door on him especially if this really is about finding himself? Don't I need to be here? If I'm not he will definitely turn to OW! [/qb]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He has already turned to her, though, and will continue that when he moves out. The point of Plan B is to turn him BACK TOWARDS you when Plan A doesn't achieve that end. You have already Plan Aed for some time and it hasn't worked. If it hasn't worked by now, it will never work.

A cake-eating spouse will stay on the fence forever if they can get away with it. Once he realizes that the OW can't possibly meet his needs, he will start to wake up about the affair. He can't realize that as long as he is getting his needs met in 2 places.

<small>[ March 20, 2004, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

I didn't see and realize this was your thread, Nid, until this afternoon.

Your H would not be concerned about privacy, changing his password, if he wasn't guilty. I agree with getting that concrete proof. Either a PI, or the small voice activated recorder, or both. The others are right that he will only get sneakier. I remember well how before the actually d-day there was no more and more denial. My questions, craziness, wanting to disbelieve that he would so blatently lie to me no matter how I'd ask him. If he was missing I'd try to catch him on the phone in the garage or on the side of the house. I never really caught him. I just finally had made myself so sick that I stopped my denial. It was obvious that he was in an A. Your situation is also obviously an A.

Now, when the truth finally came out, and he told me that he didn't love me, was in love with her, and hadn't ever been happy in our marriage, I told him to pack his bags and get out. In hindsight that may have been a mistake, but that was my reaction to having been told I was no longer loved. I didn't have the benefit of MB.

I LB'd lots. After the initial anger, I became pathetic, and cried constantly. It's hell to go through. None of that helps.

You've done what you could with plan A. Yes, he should leave sooner rather than later, and you should go to plan B. Until then be your best Nid.

He needs to miss the EN's he has gotten from you. He needs to realize what he is giving up if he chooses to live without you.

You still have a good chance of having a restored marriage. I really think it's not going to happen overnight though.

Did you ever read 2ofakind's post about the WS wanting to move out to find themselves. It is similar to your H wanting to move out to decide what he wants. 2oak has a great sense of humor.

I think it's great if he will read SAA. It really helped my H. I hope he'll counsel with SH.

He said he won't counsel with SH because 185 is way too much for a 45-50 min. conversation. Now what?

So should I send the email to OW?

Would I be a fool to plan A for a little longer when he moves out? Do you all think I am just totally pathetic? Sometimes I feel that way. What I'll do I guess is hire the PI when he moves out and decide from there. If there is no sign of contact, I will continue Plan A. If he is in contact, I will go directly to Plan B. How does that sound?

good morning Nid,

I never sent an email or called the OW(she was his secretary) because I felt that it would give her power. In my case, never contacting her worked to my advantage because she did not have any first hand knowledge of how I was dealing with things. All she knew was what my H was telling her, and it wasn't all the truth either. I'm pretty sure that he told her we were getting along as "friends" and he was waiting for the right time to move out. She was pressing for bigger things while I was doing a pretty great Plan A. It wasn't until 3 years after the first d-day that she called me to apologize and then ask me about some of the things that he told her. It was just like I thought and it was better that I had never made contact with her. Your personal life(feelings) should be off limits to her.

As far as him saying he is not waiting for anything before he moves out, I don't believe it. I really think he is going to ride the fence as long as you will allow. If he really wanted to be gone, there would be no stopping him. That is a promise! While he is there and you want to Plan A, don't let him know that you are snooping. what he should see is a perfect Plan A. When he leaves, I don't think mixing Plan A with Plan B will work. It may work against you. I know you like the baseball thing, but in the long run what's more valuable to you? Baseball or your marriage? I don't think there's any contest there.
You have to start taking control. He has all of it right now and we know what kind of decisions he is making.

p.s. this is a one coffe cup post, so sorry if it is full on run on sentences <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Oh yeah! I forgot one thing.

The $185 is fairly average. Maybe if you could get some comparable fee quotes from therapists in your town, he may be willing to talk to him.
Also, Steve Harley suggested that I tell my H that I needed the two of them to talk in order to help me. It, at least, got his foot in the door. The big plus is that Steve is very logical and men understand that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Would I be a fool to plan A for a little longer when he moves out? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just want you to answer one question. What would be the benefit of doing so?

If he hasn't even started contemplating where he is moving, I'd be hard pressed to believe he's going to follow through on that at all until you demand it. He's stringing you along. He only wants you to think he's going to move. He's already said he knows you don't want him to go, because your afraid he won't come back. He's playing on your fear. How wonderful is that! Time to show him you are not afraid.

So what he doesn't have a place to go. Let him find a place today. He will respect your strength much more than your weakness. He has to respect you in order to have a healthy marriage. Your plan A is not accomplishing that, he's just using it to yank your chain, over and over again and yes, Nid, to be honest, it's looking pretty pathetic from this side of things, especially when we know how much different your situation could be if your ovaries just got a little bigger <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . I'm not trying to be mean, just trying to motivate you! You will never save your marriage from a place of fear, but from a place of strength and dignity. Let him go to a hotel for goodness sakes and realize Nid is assured she is worthy of more than he is giving.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He doesn't really have any one he would feel comfortable imposing upon </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh! So you mean he might finally have a consequence for his behavior? Imagine that! He's had absolutely no consequences so far and that's exactly why you're still stuck in limboland. You've protected him from every consequence possible and of course he continues on his merry way. Nothing about this situation will change until he experiences some consequences for his behavior.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Its going to be the worst season for all of us, including my S who is beginning to cop quite the attitude.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't lose sight of the long term goal here nid. You will have more BB seasons. You may not have this marriage if you are not proactive. Again, I see you trying to protect H from the consequences of his A. Your son has the right to whatever attitude he's feeling. Again, this is a consequence for your H's behavior. Unfortunately, you may have to cope with some of it as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My H really wants us to remain in close contact after he moves out. He is said, I'll still be here, we can talk anytime, I can come over, etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He's saying he wants you to be his friend. Isn't that nice of him nid? He's going to ALLOW you to be his buddy, but NOT his wife?!?!?! Is this ok with you? Do you see how absurd his thinking is?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How can I shut the door on him especially if this really is about finding himself? Don't I need to be here? If I'm not he will definitely turn to OW! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He can find himself with his IC and then when he knows who he is, then he can have the "reward" of being able to continue in a relationship with you. He needs to work this out on his own, EXACTLY like he's been asking for and there is no point in waiting any longer. The point is for him to go to OW, for she is no prize honey! That is the only way he is going to see that she's not what his imagination has her built up to be. Nid, this is not about him "finding" himself. The OW is in your backyard for goodness sakes. This is not the same as it was for my H, who's OW was 350 miles away.

I say NO email to the OW. Do not give her the satisfaction of even having a hint of where your mind and emotions are. When you send H your plan B letter, you send her a copy of it too. That's all the communication she deserves. She's a piece of poop nid, don't waste your time or give her any feelings of power. Let someone else tell her your H is still intimate with you, but don't you tell her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Then she'll LB all over the place and you won't be to blame. You've got to manage this with your head and not your heart.

One more thing. You've completely stopped giving him any food for thought. He's sure of the fact he's got you in the palm of his hand no matter what he does. This is another reason you continue to tread water instead of moving forward.
All the best to you.

<small>[ March 21, 2004, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: mthrrhbard ]</small>

Dang, mthrrbard, that was so right on it took my breath away! Very well put, and I agree 1000%!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks Mthrrhbard. I know I need a good swift kick in the pants.

We had a great talk last night. I told him I support his decision to move out. He has no clue that I will go to plan B, although he has asked me what it is.

We went to church this morning, it was nice. I think its good that he is starting to realize he needs God in his life.

Mthrrhbard, I'm not so sure about him knowing he's got me in the palm of his hand. I have made it clear to him that it concerns me that I may not want him back if he leaves me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We went to church this morning, it was nice. I think its good that he is starting to realize he needs God in his life. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the BEST starting point. He must realize that not only does he need God in his life but that he must know and do what God requires of him. Having God in his life, whenever he feels like it and whenever it is comfortable will not be enough to save your marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm not so sure about him knowing he's got me in the palm of his hand. I have made it clear to him that it concerns me that I may not want him back if he leaves me </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just as his actions speak louder than his words.......same goes for you. You keep talking about how it might be that way, but none of your actions back you up. What actions have you shown him that would lead him to believe that statement?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He has no clue that I will go to plan B, although he has asked me what it is.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You shouldn't be disclosing what is or isn't Plan A or B. You'd be shooting yourself in the foot."Plans" are easily perceived as manipulation. No need to "go there" with him right now. BS is NOT supposed to "educate" the WS.
Have you read the SAA? Did you ever get around to reading Dobson?

<small>[ March 21, 2004, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: mthrrhbard ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is the BEST starting point. He must realize that not only does he need God in his life but that he must know and do what God requires of him. Having God in his life, whenever he feels like it and whenever it is comfortable will not be enough to save your marriage.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mthrrhbard, he says he wants to continue to go to church with me after he moves out. He has told me that he realizes he needs God in his life. I feel like little by little things are sinking in. . .priorities I mean. Through all our 13 years of being together, we have never gone consistently to church and rarely prayed together as a family. I believe this has been an important factor missing from our lives. I want to be able to go with him to church. We feel very close there. He sits close to me and holds my hand. He is not so deranged a person that he would be faking this. I truly feel he is just so very lost and confused and unsure of what to do. I want to continue to give him the hope that we have a future.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You shouldn't be disclosing what is or isn't Plan A or B. You'd be shooting yourself in the foot."Plans" are easily perceived as manipulation. No need to "go there" with him right now. BS is NOT supposed to "educate" the WS.
Have you read the SAA? Did you ever get around to reading Dobson?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is unavoidable as he has read some on this site. He hasn't actively researched what Plan b is and has respected my wishes that he not read my threads right now.

I am reading SAA right now. And no I haven't bought Dobson yet, but I will. I also have HNHN and will read that next.

Oh, tonight after my S's BB game, the whole team went out to eat to celebrate our 1st game and win of the year. These families are so fun to be around,but it was awkward for both of us I think. We have always enjoyed their company. When we returned we were both saddened by the fact that what is happening to us is going to affect us in so many ways. We won't be able to be around them after games anymore together and one or both of us will have to decline the invitation. It is so upsetting. My H asked me to please know that this is so hard for him too. He said he will never tell anyone of our past problems, but will take the "rap" upon himself and leave me out of it when people begin to ask what is going on.

He talked to my s about his letter tonight and asked him if he said those things because he had heard me say them. My s said no I said them because of what we talked about that night and I don't want to talk about it now. My H told my s that he doesn't want him to see him causing his mom pain anymore, that he doesn't want him to grow up and do the same, so he feels it is better for him to leave for now. My H has told me he just doesn't like who he has become, cursing me under his breath and wanting to throw things across the room when he gets frustrated or angry with me. He told me he has to sort out his issues himself.

Mtthrhbard, I know everyone thinks I'm foolish for believing this, but I seriously believe that he does have his own personal issues to resolve and it may not have to do with OW. He would be shunned from our whole circle of friends if he ever was openly with OW. It is not something he can honestly pursue and hold his head high. I do believe he is still in contact with her, but I believe it is because he came to depend on her for so long for a listening ear and advice. Yes, it was wrong and I don't condone it and I will not accept its continuance. But I know he is trying to let go, hard as it may be. I know everyone here will think me a fool, but I know my H better than anyone.

He says he doesn't know if he is doing the right thing at all, but he needs to do it. Funny thing is he still hasn't made any concrete plans. Only a week and a half left to the month.

A friend of mine (and his) emailed him an incredible thought provoking email yesterday. I know it impressed upon him because he printed it out instead of deleting it. She said so much it is impossible for me to recount, but she made it clear to him that he is in a place where so many (including she and her husband) have been before and were able to emerge with a better marriage. She wanted to let him know that he was not alone and had many other people who cared about him and us that he could go to besides OW. She also talked about how a true friend would never encourage a friend to hide things from their spouse or engage in a relationship that was unknown to their spouse. She also talked about setting priorities in your life (1st God, then Family, last Work/Others).

I thought he would feel she was preaching to him, but he said he truly appreciated her time, thought, and effort and wanted to thank her. I think it made a impact, maybe small, on him.

Nid, there is nothing stopping him from going to church. The only difference is that you will be in Plan B and need to avoid contact with him.
He shouldn't have the benefit of family in Plan B or it entirely defeats the purpose.

It won't help your family to break Plan B so you can go pretend like you ARE a family every Sunday while he is having an affair and are separated. Please don't sacrifice a plan that may lead to the reconciliation of your family so you can go play happy family on Sunday and then return home alone. The benefits of Plan B far outweigh any perceived benefit of going to church together.

God would much rather have your marriage restored than you all sitting in church pretending to be one big happy family.

Give him an opportunity to miss his family, Nid, he needs this to be pulled off the fence. If you keep giving him those benefits this affair can go on forever.

Melody, did you read both of my last posts or only the first one?