Dear MB Friends

I feel that my H and I have reached an important point in our recovery. He assures me that he has not had C with ow for several months. Those of you who know me know that this has consumed most of my posts here.

For those of you who aren't familiar with us, my H had a 2 year affair. Part of that time we had reconciled and were in a false recovery as the a continued. My H ended it a few months back and is now in NC. He is having difficulty with depression and thoughts of her.

I have had a hard time lately because I have been concerned that C is still ongoing. I was awake most of Turesday night obsessing over all this. H knew I was awake and knows when I do this it's because I'm stressed over us.

He called from work the next morning and wanted to talk about what was bothering me, and I didn't want to discuss it with him. I felt why rehash the same issue. It doesn't accomplish anything.

Last night he came home from work ready to talk.

He told me in no uncertain terms that he is not in C with her. Hasn't been for several months. So he's done about 2/3 months of withdrawal But he still has a problem.

His "in love" feelings for me haven't returned yet. He's tried but they haven't come back. He wants to but you can;t just make yourself. He still thinks about her constantly. What their life may have been. When we're doing something, he thinks "What would it be like if I were doing this with her instead."

He says he's depressed. He obsesses over this practically all day. He has no answers and doesn't know what to do. He wishes we could go back 10 years with the new improved me. That is in reference to how I've started to better meet his needs.

My 2 top needs are honesty and affection. I've told him of these needs. The honesty, well only he knows if he's doing that. As far as the affection, I've asked that he kiss me and hug me. I'm not asking for this 24/7 and, I'm not talking tonsil sucking kisses. Just a nice kiss occassionally. I would like for him to iniitiate hugging and holding me close instead of me doing it.

He says he just doesn't want to. He doesn't feel it. I get the impression that it's not that he never thinks of doing it, it's that he doesn't want to do it.

I wonder if that's his way of expressing his anger at me for all the times in the past when I neglected that need of his. It's odd because affection is what he asked of me before all this and I just dismissed his need for it. Is it a way of holding on to her?

He knows that I post here. He's never read here that I know of. He asked what the people here advised us to do. How does he get those feelings back for me.

I told him (he asked) that he needed to see someone for his depression. I advised reading some of the books I have. I advised coming here.

This is where I need your help.

Do you have suggestions to help him in his withdrawal. He say he doesn't have any answers. He wants the pain to stop. He knows he wouldn't be happy with her and would really miss me if we weren't together.

We would be grateful for all help.

MK

<small>[ March 26, 2004, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: marykat ]</small>

Hi MK -

I don't have any words of advice for how to get through withdrawal - I wish there was a magic pill to take.

My WH came back for a time, and he was the EXACT same way. Depressed, thinking of her, can't imagine going on with life without her....etc. He promised he had NC, but I know better now. He only maintained that NC for about a week, if that long.

I guess the good news is that he's there, it appears he's asking for help (either from books, boards, etc). Those certainly seem like positive signs to me.

Hang in there and continue to do your best meeting his top EN.

what a terrific post. i hope you both get lots of replies.

i can empathize where you are as for as affection. my H wanted me to be affectionate for so long and i turned him away so many times. this is one of the things that hurts the most. now all i want to do is show him that and i can't. i also feel that if and when we get back together this will be a struggle w/him.

best of luck.

MK--
And so, our parallel lives continue!!

Sorry to hear that things are stalled--and that is what I think they are. Sounds exactly like my H, and guess what? Sorry to say, OW had contacted him and in fact they had had two conversations (that he would admit) in Jan/Feb. At first, I did the same old routine about continued contact, then I just went nuts!! I called her and told her that I knew that she keeps calling him and that if she called even one more time that I would call every family member and friend and boss and anyone else I found that she calls on her cell phone and tell them what she had done and what she continues to do. She called me psycho and gave me a bunch of crap about how badly would I feel if I did such a thing to her. The nerve! I said that it would be a drop in the bucket compared to what she is doing and told her not to try me!

Then H was on a trip, and I told him what I had done. He yelled and screamed--I think I posted about this a while back, you can look it up. Anyway, he seemed to feel that his not contacting her was all that was required.

Bottom line, and to my point: I told him he would not live here any longer if he didn't give me a plan for contact and start back counseling with Steve Harley. After some reluctance and my not backing down an inch, he did the plan. We have talked to SH three times. Now that NC is being followed (so far) SH has us doing the EN and LB questionnaires. SH says that you need to get your body doing the right things and the feelings will follow.

ANY chance you guys could counsel with SH? He really seems to break through these WS's defenses. It sounds like withdrawal is taking a long time, and I worry that somehow he is keeping himself attached to her. I know that upsets you.

But MK--be ready to truly accept whatever is really happening with your H, even if there is contact, that isn't the end for you. It could be the start of real honesty. If there isn't contact, you can try to get to the real reasons he holds out like this. I think my H did it/does it because he wants the protection of anger at me so that he does not have to admit to himself that there is absolutely NO excuse for what he has done.

Hugs!

marykat - your husband is just about where he "should be" in 2-3 months. Remember, he didn't stop on his own accord any more than my wife did. They both stopped because the affair was no longer in secret and they finally had to choose one or the other, but no more cakewalking and "having it both ways."

All I have time to say right now to your husband is that the average recovery time is 2-5 years, so he is at the very early stages and probably just getting through the withdrawal stage. "Feelings" and "thoughts" are not turned off instantly, like throwing a light switch. His feelings for you, etc. did not happen overnight originally either. It takes time and consistant, loving, behavior over time for feelings of love to grow.

Perhaps a bad analogy, but one that might work, is treatment for, and recovery from, cancer. The initial regime often requires surgery to eliminate the primary tumor followed by chemotherapy and/or radiation treatments to stop the spread of the cancer and hopefully to eradicate it. None of this happens in a short timeframe. On average it can take 6 months or longer BEFORE the person begins to feel better and can begin to regain their strength and health and feeling of well-being.

His attraction to the OW can be thought of as a "cancer of the mind, emotions, or thoughts." He is still fixated upon his imaginations of what might have been "pleasure," but we ALL know that all marriages require work and do not float along in some "honeymoon" idealistic fantasy forever. Love matures. Puppy love (what he seems to be suffering from) eventually dies. Love and feelings for our spouse has to be nutured and watered. Sometimes it even needs a little pruning so that it will continue to grow straight and strong.

Can you imagine how long a soldier would survive if he never took the time to clean his weapon? What if he never worked at learning how to field strip the weapon? What if he thought the enemy had a much more pleasing and desireable weapon than what his crummy country provided for him?

Yes, marykat, we can all be experts at the "What if" game. But that's fantasy and adults need to stay grounded in reality.

Tell him to hang in there for the long haul and through the rough spots that are bound to come.

God bless.

bump
mk

Welcome Mr. MK! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

first off, perhaps MK can change the title of this thread...I think you need to hear from some other WS and you can specifically request that in the title...they can give you first-hand experience of the kinds of feelings they went through, for how long, how they overcame those feelings, etc.

I am happy to try and give you a bit of perspective but it is not necessarily direct.

Mr. MK: your feelings are very normal. You have invested a lot of time and energy into another relationship. This relationship meant something to you -- have you figured out what that really was yet?

You see, it was based on lies and deception. That's the reason why so few relationships that begin as an affair ever last. They weren't "real" relationships, they were casual, easy, fantasy relationships.

If you bristle at that thought, think about how much you did with her that was ever "real". Things like sick kids, dirty laundry, grumpy nights, resolving sticky issues that last for days/months/years between you.

Every relationship has a honeymoon period. An affair never gets past that point. Once it does, it usually blows right apart.

So feeling like it was "perfect" or "wonderful" or free from bad feelings...well, it likely was! But that's because it wasn't real.

You need to understand and absorb that concept first and foremost in order to be able to move beyond it. If you keep on comparing what you had with her to what you have with MK, this may well keep you locked in the painful place you are now in.

Mr. MK: you can regain your feelings of "in-love" with MK if you choose to do so. Actually, I can point you to a letter written by someone who did this with his wife. Perhaps that might help you, basically an A-B-C of how to fall in love again.

But I can also tell you of my own experience. I had fallen out of love with my husband. You know, I still loved him deep down but no "in-love" feelings, there hadn't been for years. And you know what, following the MB principles, I fell "in-love" with my husband again.

How? Try this:

1. every time you are thinking of the other woman, replace that thought with one of MK. Phone her, talk to her, go see her, buy her a little gift, pick her a bouquet of the flowers that I hear are in bloom over there!

2. every time you have a bad thought about MK, replace it with a good one. One of my books has a great list -- for everything you don't like about someone, it is also probably something you do like.

For example: if you think your spouse is controlling (negative) then you likely also rely on their organizational skills (positive). If you think your spouse is messy, you probably also appreciate their care-free attitude towards life.

Replace all your negatives with a positive. If MK is quiet, instead of thinking: "here she goes again sulking", think "I love this woman and want to find out what's bothering her".

3. ask her what's going on whenever you know something IS bothering her. I'm sure you two can both agree to be honest with each other at this point?

MK knows she has work to do with herself, on herself. If you ask her what's wrong, then it is up to her to honestly tell you.

And it is not up to you to guess either. If she wants a hug, then she needs to ask you for one.

And it is up to you to be honest with her right back too. If you don't want to hug her, sit down with her and explain why it makes you uncomfortable.

You know, I don't think you two are that far apart really. I suspect there are a lot of bad feelings from the past that are getting in the way of truly starting a new marriage between you.

4. so start already! Let go of the past between you. Figure out what you want, and then talk about it with MK. Do you want more sex? Different sex? Less arguing? (Don't we all!)

Whatever it is, talk about it with each other. You may not reach an agreement right away but you certainly can't if you don't talk about what it is you want out of life.

5. spend time together. What do you guys enjoy doing? If you can start having fun together it will go a long way to getting those in-love feelings back.

Okay enough! I can come up with a million suggestions but I don't want to overwhelm you.

Basically, you can fall head over heels in love with each other again. Truly. You have to want to though. You have to want to let go of the past, to decide that you are ready to leave it behind you. And then throw yourself into this new project...loving MK.

Wouldn't you like to feel good about yourself and your life for a change? Don't you think that would take a big load off your shoulders?

heck...I think you're worth it and I've never met you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But you have an awesome wife...awed

P.S. I too think you are probably depressed...you should really be talking to a professional counsellor and perhaps taking anti-depressants for a while...most guys don't seem to want to do this but hey! Life is so short...don't you WANT to feel better for a change?

P.P.S. I should have mentioned that my husband and I had a TERRIBLE marriage...it is why I can be so hopeful with other people. Wow -- we talk all the time now, I never yell and call him names (yes, I did that), and he thinks I'm wonderful, he doesn't just love me, he's in love with me!

This stuff really works Mr. MK...and my husband never believed in any of the this "crap" to begin with...that's the other reason it is so great...you don't even have to believe in it for it to work!

<small>[ March 25, 2004, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

Welcome, Mr. MK! You've come to an unbelievably supportive, helpful, and straight-shooting bunch of people.

One thing Mr. MK can do to help purge his system of OW is be very certain he gets rid of everything he can that he equates with her or memories of her.

Even if there's NC, he might have something she gave him. He might have a CD that was playing when they did something together and it reminds him of her. He might have an old card or email. MK might wear the same perfume OW wore. It ALL has to go. Has to! There will be enough triggers he can't control; he has to get rid of the ones he can.

Whenever a good thought of OW pops into his head, he can replace it with a way in which MK is so much better. For exmple, maybe they had fun going out to dinner. Heck, anyone can be fun going out to eat without kids in tow. MK is also reliable and cooks dinner for the family and then eats with the family. She puts her heart and effort into her family.

I, too, have seen the book awed mentioned where the author lists "flip" sides of traits. It made me nuts wondering where I'd seen it so I went and looked it up. It's in Janis Abrahms Spring's "After the Affair". She says: ...you need to learn that the qualities you like and dislike in your partner are often flip sides of the same attribute, that you can't have one with out the other...

A few examples (there are more):
lacks spontaniety, passion, and a sense of adventure; boring -> stable, relaible, even-tempered, content
soffocatingly invasive, needy, controlling -> attentive, generous, giving, involved
arrogant, controlling -> masterful, competent

Another thing Mr. MK might be doing is using memories of OW as a means to escape from stress. If that's happening, he could focus on more healthy ways to deal with stressors. Talk to MK about what's stressing him and ask for her understanding or suggestions. Go running. Take a hot shower or bubble bath (real men take bubble-baths <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ).

It's also possible that Mr. MK needs a distraction. I've found that I tend to fixate on R-related things (including OM) if I have the time, but if I get engrossed in a fantastic book or absorbing hobby, I don't have time to think about other things. I forget to dwell on that stuff and the brain clutter kind of goes away by itself over time. Or maybe it just gets replaced <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Whatever, it works! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Awed,

I changed the title. Good suggestion.

I am so happy to have everyone respond to my DH. I am hopeful for our recovery. We have both built walls between us and I so want them to come down.

My DH doesn't know that I started this thread. He left Thursday morning for an overnight trip. He drove 5 hours there and 5 back because he wanted to be home last night. Made me feel special.

I plan to print this thread off this weekend and give it to him to read. I'm not sure about him reading my old posts. I've said nothing that I didn't truely feel, but perhaps it's not what I would have said if I had been talking to him directly.

Now thanks to everyone! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Wanting Him Back and Rough Road

Hang in there. My H and I were separated for 3 months. He was positive he wanted a D. There was no waffling. He wanted out. Then out of the blue, overnight (it seemed to me, he changed his mind).

Anne
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And so, our parallel lives continue!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was glad to hear from you. I've been wondering how you are doing.

I'm glad to hear that you're counseling with Steve. I sure hope it helps improve things for you. His suggestion that if you get your body going in the right direction seems right on to me. I suggested to my H about the kissing hugging thing to just say, "okay, once a week, whatever, I'm just going to do it. Whether I feel it or not." We've never done the questionaires.

Thanks FH

I appreciate you responding. We still have much "watering" and "pruning" to do.

Awed

Where's the letter? No link? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Just teasing!

I'm still having problems with the quote thing. Ticking me off.

Thanks for your specific suggestions. Your statement that you read people well seems totally correct. You always seem to hit things right on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Every relationship has a honeymoon period. An affair never gets past that point. Once it does, it usually blows right apart.

So feeling like it was "perfect" or "wonderful" or free from bad feelings...well, it likely was! But that's because it wasn't real.

You need to understand and absorb that concept first and foremost in order to be able to move beyond it. If you keep on comparing what you had with her to what you have with MK, this may well keep you locked in the painful place you are now in.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very true! Okay, quote (right click)

Again awed such real, concrete advice. Thanks

I hope you are involved in the counseling field. You could help so many people.

Turtlehead

Thanks for responding. I remember asking a long time ago for ways to show admiration for my H. We wrote to me with such good ideas.

Getting rid of any reminders of her. Yeah, Need to be done. DH has said he needs something to do. He's considered taking a class. We live in an appt over here and it's not like our home in the US where there's always something that needs to be done, repair sprinkler heads, paint the deck. My DH is quite good at "fixing" things and exhausts me sometimes with his endless energy. He definately could use a distraction.

I hope I get some additional advice for him. Anyone else have anything to add.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> MK

MK

Ya know there are some very hard earned lessons i could share with him. Right now probably some others could so it more 'gently'.

Consider having him read this thread:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=014145

I Kinda sorta went ....what's the polite term for 'batsh1t' ??? on this one but i think it might make a good read for a FWS who is struggling a bit. You might print it for him. He so has to understand that lies or omissions to 'protect you' will get him killed here - he needs to understand that he has a HUGE opportunity to make things right but ANY lie might lose you.

He may read what I wrote to the author and think "Mean heartless [censored]" or he might "Get" what I and several others tried in vain to convey.

Right now, his success depends on three things.
1. No contact
2. TOTAL honesty about what has happened
3. Willingness to make and KEEP the promises you need right now.

He's in a tough place - been there, sucks. He is so used to making up lies to himself to live with his behavior that real honesty is terrifying. Tell him this - come clean completely and get it ALL off your chest and NO NEW LIES OR DECEPTIONS!

That is for HIM - the stress of affair secrets is HELL to live with - he will feel so relieved if he gets it ALL out.

For your part, this is hard - bite your lip a bit. Remember that the goal is to fix things. It will be tough but THANK HIM for being honest and don't make him wish he hadn't!!!!!!

Glad to hear the progress - keep it up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Another thing Mr. MK might be doing is using memories of OW as a means to escape from stress. If that's happening, he could focus on more healthy ways to deal with stressors. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This exactly what I was doing for almost two years after the affair. When I would get down or stressed, I would escape into a daydream about how great life might have been for me and the OW. I've been seeing a good therapist who has given me some practical cognitive tools to recognize when I'm doing this so I can do something different. Only after I began doing this did the "aura" of a fantasy life with the OW fade.

At 2 to 3 months after NC, I was still in a trememdous quandry trying to decide if staying in the marriage was the best thing. I was terrified that I might have let go of the best thing that ever happened to me. The OW still had a sizable LB account with me, while my wife's was still deep in the red. The OW was available and getting divorced. She would have married me in an instant. At this point, My wife and I really hadn't had much time to experience the changes in the marriage that we both agreed needed to happen. Outwardly, I was assuring my wife that I was committed to her because I told myself it was the "right thing to do", but inwardly I was having a helluva time committing because I still wasn't SURE if it was the right thing to do.

My advice to Mr. MK? Find a good IC, and give yourself time to grieve the loss of the affair relationship. Most BSs don't like to hear this, and often we WSs try to keep it to ourselves because it hurts them, but the truth is that the relationship meant something to us and we are going to grieve its loss.

If I could do anything different, I would have gotten into IC much earlier. I waited too long and just kept wallowing in destructive thought habits.

Low

Mr. MK

I am thrilled that turtlehead, 2oak and Low posted to you...hope it helps...you are hearing from people who've been through this and come out the other side...

MK said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Where's the letter? No link? Just teasing! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">well...actually...I was kind of a tease, mentioning it without posting the link! so here it is:
how to fall in love

awed

2oak and low

Thanks so much for the posts. I was hoping that you might see this. I know you get called out a lot. I appreciate you taking the time.

Awed

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
thanks for the link!

MK