Hey 3 - Just happened to catch a glimpse at the Emotional Needs board and saw reference to this post. Thought you might want to read other views...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=020613

Hi All.
i saw that LosingFocus mentioned this thread....so, i decided to come and check it out.

i have always found the thought of AS a legitimate need.....but, the thought of it as a top need(#1or 2) does feel shallow to me.

oddly enough......i have this need to keep myself in shape and look attractive...
and i find THAT shallow. maybe something else to talk about. does anyone who has a need to look good for themselves think of it as shallow?

my H didn't rank AS high on his list....but, i do wonder how honest he was w/ himself.
it wasn't an issue at the time he did his ENs, so maybe it was easy to overlook as a need.

thru the years i often asked him how he would feel if i gained a significant amount of weight.....he always said....i'd still love you, that will never change.
but, i realize now, what i was asking him was would you still desire me?
love/desire were so connected for me.
i would be difficult to want to be married to a man i didn't desire.

i think men that want their wife thin again, want to desire them again.
i guess because so amny men are so visual....AND so literal....they actually DO connect desire w/ love......and that's what they want when they have the AS need.....to be able to connect the desire to the love again.


i do still think that when AS or FS is a top need.....THE reason you married your spouse....it does seem shallow on the surface.......and in some cases, i am sure it is....but, there may be something to it that we won't completely understand untill we hear the explanation from the person

<small>[ April 05, 2004, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

I think I must just be wired differently or something. To be honest I love my H for who is is not what he looks like. He could gain 150 lbs and I would still love him. It is his laugh, and smile that turn me on. It is the way he touches and holds me at night that turns me on not what he looks like. My H is a very nice look man but at 42 he is getting a belly and starting to lose some hair. He has to mention that for me to notice.

Ladies,

If you don't mind, I thought I would offer a males point of view. This thread is actually one of many on here over the years addressing the need for an Attractive Spouse. You would NOT believe how many pages have been used in the discussion of this topic. Mostly women thinking it is unfair, and then some finally admitting that they are affected by how attractive a guy is.

BUT, the most interesting thing is that when it is all said and done the conclusions that often arise and seem to be arising now are different than what started this thread and the others.

Often, the need for an AS, is fueled by what (we'll stick with women for awhile) what women feel about themselves. You see what really attracts men is enthusiasm. Heroswife I believe mentioned that she would not undress in front of her H, because she felt her chest did not measure up. Do you realize how sexy men find a woman undressing or dressing for that matter is??? Now that Heroswife has had surgery she is more confident, she is willing to dress or undress in front of H, and I'll bet a lot of money HE notices her as well.

The point! Often the need for an AS and who people feel about themselves couple to make it a big issue. Heroswife commented that OW in her case was NOT attractive, but I will bet she was enthusiastic, she wanted heroswife's H.

Like many of these needs they are coupled to others, as well as all of our own fears and insecurities. To those women that feel they are over weight, lose the weight so YOU feel good about yourself, and I will bet your spouse will notice your change in attitude and be attracted to you.

In my batchelor days I learned a very interesting lesson from a female acquaintence of mine. She was fairly heavy and she was in her 20's but she always had men after her. She dress in the fashion of a woman maybe 30 lb's less than she weighed, but she also just seemed to ooze interest in men (yes single guys <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ), and because of that she seemed to have her choice. I watched this for a year or so, and that is where I became sensitized to this issue of enthusiasm. She told me very few people won't be attracted to someone that seems to want to be around them and yes her sex life was shall we say fulfilling and busy. Yet, she never had even close to a models body.

So SA is real. Yes, it seems shallow unless it is YOUR need. But, so do the others has Turtle pointed out. But, consider the nonlinear affect your own image of yourself has on the interaction, and I think you all will find that you don't have to be as slim as when you were 20, nor do you have to dress as if you are 20, you just have to look your age and let your H know you are interested him. Trust me the sexual need and the SA need, and the emotional needs are all connected in some interesting ways.

I won't even tell you how amazed I was to watch with some other young guys the "OLD PRO" work his way through much younger and very beautiful women. Another lesson learned about how enthusiasm can overcome appearance, from the other side of the fence. Believe me us 20 somethings learned a lot watching this 40+ something romance his way through women. It was very educational.

Ok, I'll be quiet, but please realize that men are attracted to women that are happy with themselves.

God Bless,

JL

You hit the nail on the head with this one, JL!

JL -

You are right. My H has mentioned on more than one ocassion that he is attracted to my confidence now. I do not want to give anyone the impression that I was in terrible shape. I wasn't. I had 2 kids and nursed both for a total of 18 months combined. Before babies I was used to having the perfect body. After babies I felt like a slob.

I didn't take ownership of that. I just felt it was the way life had to be. I didn't try to do anything to help. I felt sorry for myself and resentful of my H as he is in the best physical condition a human being can be in.

So I bought myself a better chest...keyword being myself. It was for me and not for him. I then decided that I wanted the rest of the package. I work out like a mad woman now and it shows. I'm not walking around like I'm God's Gift but I do feel great about myself.

My H finds that irresistable. I see it as a perk.

So I challenge those of you out there to take ownership of your body. You do not have to have work done. But if you are unhappy with the way you look...do something about it. Baby steps.

I think AS is a very true EN. Being with someone that cares about themselves enough to take care of themselves is the underlying EN....being with someone that is confident is another underlying EN.

I make sure to undress in front of my H now. He even comes home from work early for SF....which is one of my top ENs. It's a win win situation for me. I feel better and I get my ENs meet.

That's the bottom line here.

JL you are the master. Thank you for posting.

well ladies and Gentalmen this subject has gotten alot more feed back then I expected .

I do agree with some of the things that I have read ,,, but in away still thinking some of the point is being missed .

I agree AS brings confidence , and that people who take care of them self are more attractive to others all very valed .

BUT here we go , there are PEOPLE out there that are saying this is lets say there # 1 need . NOW lets say SF is #2,,, following


IF need #1 is not filled to THAT PERSONS LEVEL then need # 2 will suffer . causeing a spiral in the needs department .

WHEN is the need not the need BUT shallow /vain/selfish?????????????????????????????


I mean if I am not aloud to call my H's need all those things cause there HIS and they mean everything to him .. THEN him lets say , saying
"IF you do not mantain a certain way about your body then I am out of here" is not WRONG ?


I mean after all its a real need right ? so who is anyone to call it shallow/selfish ect.

If a H says if you don't have the#1 need filled then you can't fill my #2 need then wow honey you ain't filiing my needs ?


I am talking really calling this a EN , something that is part of making you happy . The use of filling or not filling EN to set the stage for the "ENVIRMENT " for the A .

NO matter what how high the exprtation is of that S.

Example : lets say I was tottaly satisfied with my body , confident ect. and it showed , now my H still says his need is for me to look like victoria secret model . I guees that means I need to breack my A$$ and make sure I exsaust every means possiab;e to get that weather it be starve , plastic surgery, gym 8 hours a day and never eat anything like ice cream again .

What I guess I am saying is in M (or in my belief of) it is a TOTAL package the good with the bad the not so good with the not so bad .

what ever my needs are they can be comprimised to a certain degree . FOR the hole package .

AGE will always win , lets face it . I mean you can try all you want but 37 is not 30 again , and 50 is not 25 ever again .

Anymore thoughts ?????????????????????????????????

HEY 3!!!

Sorry I haven't been back. Coming here again dredged up a lot of old stuff, but I think I can handle it now.

Anyway, just wanted to say that I agree with you on this one. I can see if it's a matter of hygiene, or basic personal care (fixing hair, stuff like that), but I feel that one spouse telling the other that they need to lose weight, look younger, etc. is more of a selfish demand.

It's been a while since H and I did the questionnaires, but I think AS was up there in the top 5 on his--probably last on mine. BUT he sees me as attractive JUST AS I AM. He doesn't want me to change my looks. And I didn't marry him for anything having to do with his looks.

I wouldn't want to have to worry about my H leaving if, God forbid, I were to get into an accident and wind up scarred, or have to have anything amputated, or wind up with a disease that changed my body.

<small>[ April 06, 2004, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: luvbird ]</small>

3,

Let's say that your H really really wanted to be married to a Victoria Secret model, but he married you who is NOT a VS model. Whose fault is that?

You see needs for an attractive spouse presupposes that at one time YOU meet this need in him. If you never did, then it is not something you can do anything about and I don't think a whole bunch of plastic surgery would help.

Another thing to consider is that NEEDS move up and down the list. For example if you do a needs test and a man is getting a lot of sex at home and fully enjoying it, it is likely he will NOT list sex as #1. It will be something else.

Further, it is supposed in the needs test that one will list them in order of importance, but that does not mean they are not being met.

AS, is a certain need. Most will not list it highly, but I will say that you, I, or anyone always enjoy it when our spouse looks good, feels good, and is confident within themselves. So we all have the need for an AS, it may not be our #1.

I would say most men that have a need for a"trophy" W would have AS as a high need, or is it a NEED to show off?? You see even here the situation is not clear.

I agree it is the total package, but I will say this most of us really really enjoy having a happy spouse, that is my highest need frankly. I get more joy out of my W being happy and smiling, than just about anything. Frankly, it is what can make sex so enjoyable: seeing my W enjoy it.

So if I haven't muddied the waters abit, I do think it is a realistic need that is manifested in all of us to a degree or another, but in a few it is a very high need.

Since I live in an area where "trophy" W's seem to be somewhat common, I will tell you that I don't see the allure. The women seem pretty shallow to me, but then so are the guys they are married to. It is however, clear from my comment that an AS is NOT at the top of my list. But, I do like her to dress well, and feel good about herself.

So heck I don't know. If it is a big need it is I guess. But, I do think it is coupled to other needs.

Have I ever told you my story of finding out about beauty? Probably not. So with your permission I will boar you abit.

My father was in the military so we moved constantly and consequently I went to many many schools, anyway in my third HS I had a very good friend that I played football with. A few years earlier he had dated a girl in Japan where his family was stationed. He was constantly telling me she was the most beautiful girl he had ever met. He was a bit of a "ladies man" in HS. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

So it turns out her family is moving back to the States and were coming through the base we lived at. He calls me and wants to know if want to meet her. I say "sure". So we go over to the visiting quarters and knock on the door. This girl answers. She as a nice looking girl but really nothing special. We go in and it turns out that the "most beautiful girl in the world", is in fact this girl. I am a bit surprised. So we sit and talk and everyone gets caught up on each other's lives and so forth.

When I left I realized my friend was right she was one of the most beautiful girls I had ever seen. I cannot tell you what it was, she had a beautiful smile, or maybe it was how she laughed, or did...whatever, but she was a spectacular girl.

I learned something that day about beauty, and I think what I learned is why it is so hard to address the AS need. It is in the eye of the beholder, AND it is NOT just about what you see, when you meet someone. It is about the total package. If someone can only see the surface of people, then their need for AS will look different than someone that sees deeper, but I suspect our need for an AS is really still there.

I will tell you as I get older, I will remark and notice the beauty of a young girl or woman, you see them on TV or the movies alot. But, I am more attracted to mature woman. I like the smile lines on the face. I like a bit of meat on the bones, and I just love a woman that laughs, smiles, and knows how to make eye contact. Finally, to me a beautiful woman has to have a sense of humor, or she cannot appreciate the beauty of the world.

So do I have a need for AS? Yes, I guess I do, but it is not found in a surgeons office. I think my W is very attractive, but even in her youth she would at best be described as 'hansome'. I have dated many a model, and I never felt the urge to marry them.

Have I confused you enough 3? It just seems to me it is more of a need than is commonly thought, but AS is a very subtle and personal thing, because beauty is in the eye of the beholder. My best friends ex-girl friend taught me a lot and I think she can shed some light on this discussion. The mirror does not tell the tale except for those that can only see skin deep.

Must get some work done.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ April 06, 2004, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Luvbird- You got to stop poppin in like that , LOL only kidding I love hering from you and understand the hole "mb sometimes sends thoses triggers"

BUT you can pop in when ever you agree with me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

now JL- I enjoyed the storys very much , and agree with all of them I am that type of person who can see the beuty inside witch makes the outside SHINE .


It is very much my point , the funny thing is like my H I have come across men that are like what I discribe .

When this part started to slip then all the other needs seem to not be met . NOT by me or other women I know but them not allowing the others to be met cause the AS was not there .

I guess to sum it up , the need is not a need when it is a demand .

I feel as if this to be listed as EN is a fine line .

And I know that some BS like myself may find this one hard if there S has had the A with a "BARBIE DOLL "

It really makes ya think . A freind of ours put it this way to my FWS (when he was in fog)

Are you going to trade this MODEL in when it is 10yrs later and ya have some kids and she ages (OW) for a new one ??????


Its been nice to see all the different opoins and veiws .

with that said , I am trying as best as I can to get the old model into better shape .

LUVbird - don't be a stranger , give a shout now and again !

Attractive Spouse is very high in my EN list. I felt guilty for years because I listened to people who told me that it was a "shallow" need.

Over time I became resentful because something that was important to me didn't seem to be important to my wife or anyone around us. I heard all the age and beauty under the skin stories until I was sick of them.

No More. This is important to me. My affair showed me that. I will make it clear to my spouse that it is important to me. I do expect it to be important to her and I expect her to work to meet it.

My wife has the ability to meet this need for AS. I don't think I would've married her if she didn't. Knowing that she has this ability, but not maintaining herself when she knows it's important to me is could be a serious love buster. It's not a demand...it's a simple fact.

If you fail to work to meet your spouses important ENs, your marriage is at risk.

You know what I discovered? She has the same need...

I bust my a$$ to keep my weight down, I workout to maintain the body features she likes and, yes, I'm probably going to get plastic surgery for those "love handles".

And NO, I'm NOT doing it for me! I'm unabashedly doing it to meet her EN. I have orthopedic issues that make staying in shape extra challenging and painful. If it was up to me, I wouldn't do it.

This isn't her only need. If I focus exclusively on this and neglect, say, Financial Support, it won't matter how buff I am.

So, your point about the whole package is well taken, but is no excuse to ignore or pooh-pooh any particular part of it.

Low

I think JL is correct in every point.

If an S gets SF often then SF will not be the top need. If someone has a very attractive spouse then it's doubtful that AS will be on the top of the list. I think the top 5 needs are reflections of the current situation. Not to say they won't always be the same 5 but the order they appear in will change depending on the situation.

That's just my veiw point. I think too many times mothers get caught up in their children's lives and let themselves go. I see this all the time at my girl's school and sports functions. There are soccer mom's out there that spend every second of every day devoted to their children and they forget about themselves. Not to say they should suffer because of that. I think it's very admirable to do that. I was guilty of that myself before the A. After the A I realized that I never did anything for "Hero". It was never about me it was always about my family.

I felt like without my H I didn't have a life because everything was about my family.

I've since put some effort into developing my own life. Part of that life is focusing on getting myself into shape. Ironically my H is my workout partner. He will not go to the gym without me now. It's a win/win solution for me.

i missed this entire thread as it was happening over the last few days. very good reading for me right now, very appropriate. thanks to all who posted here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> BUT you can pop in when ever you agree with me </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LMAO!

I think I'm ok with it now. I think the problem before was that it had been so long since I was here, and just seeing everybody's pain took me back to "that place". I'm pretty sure I can handle it now.

Pssssssst--got a secret to tell ya--(whispers) I'm pregnant. Shhhhhh....don't tell anybody. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Ok first thing I need to address is off topic.

LUVBIRD - YOU TOLD ME THE LAZYBOY JUST BROKE LOL

CONGRATS WOMEN!!!!!! WHEN ARE YOU DO ? I wish you the best all the happiness and a healthy pregnance.
If this is a secret does your H know yet ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> LOL
KEEP in touch , PLEASE !

FL - I am glad you enjoyed the reading , I was hoping that this would help some around who I know think of this issue alot . NICE to hear different veiws on things that may bother us .

HERO- I can agree with ya on some of the things you stated , WOMEN who let them selfs go getting to involved with liveing on the run for the "FAMILY"

Being a stay home mom , I think we all get court up in this , till we find "OURSELF " in the hole mix. I posted those thpougts long ago about balance and finding WHO I AM ,,, I always veiwed ME as HIS W and there MOM . BUT who was I where did I go . AND by being his W I mean , laundry, bills, house keeper, and his support system .

BUT I don't agree about the SF , it is affected in some cases , yes if there GETTING IT ,it is filled , but if the need for the APPREANCE is so high then , they are not as attracted and they them self may not allow the need to be filled , a chain reaction (as in my case) I am ready willing and able anytime any where ,,,, but if H is rejecting cause the need for AS is not filled to HIS level then I am unable to fill that other need . So in turn who is neglecting whos needs in that case , and if he has another A , and says well my need for SF wasn't being filled cause you didn't fill the need for AP . then here we go again EXCUSES for the A , and a BS left feeling as this is there fault.

NOW ORBIT- Well this is more the root of where I am going , NOW I am not going to call you shallow (I don't like calling people names LOL )

YOU made a statement " I am going to make sure my W knows that this IS my need" ALSO if a S isn't busting to meet the EN then the M is at risk.

YOU said, you learned that this need is important , you learned that during the A.

This is exactly what I am talking about , (thanks for your openess)

As a BS this is where the PAIN comes in ,(I will speack for myself not to say ALL BS)
IF my M was at risk cause my H "THINKS" I have the ability to acheive HIS standard of AS then thats saying I need to fear everyday if I don't BARBIE DOLL UP ,,,, he will seek that else where. ?

WELL this is what causes eating disorders and obsession with ones appearance witch can lead to a hole lot of things .

I think it is now not only shallow, selfish, demanding but very very cruel ,,,,

A person can eat right , excirse regular and dress well . THAT doesn't mean that they can meet the need to have a MODELS body yet they are trying very hard . AS hard as they can with out letting everythign around them fall to the waste side . BALANCING a good home , and in some cases a PERFECT home , and attending to childrens
needs .

THIS is my hole point WHEN IS this need not a need but selfish. ? WHEN is it crossing the line ?

ANY one can say this is my need and screew anyone for telling me different , its important to ME . WELL then I could say I have a need to have my H eat, sleep and breath me . NO one else in his life exceprt me not family , friends, nothing .
AFTER all if its important to me who should tell me I am obsessive, or insecure ect.

I am I making any sense to get the point across .

WE are all going to get old and nature takes over ,does one have to live in constant fear that they will be traded in for a new MODEL cause they aged , do I or anyone else with a S like this need to live with a plastic surgent ?

LISTEN I am just a basic down to earth person , I have needs like everyone else , but do they get compromised YES, do I mind some times , but am I running off to have them filled NO ! Or will I demand and state that if they are not my H is in risk of loosing his M ,, NO!

The only time H is at risk of loosing me is if he goes off and to another and uses the excuse THAT HIS NEEDS aren't being met.

3 -

I think we are agreeing here but missing each other on some points of view.

AS for me, is interpreted as an internal attractiveness more so then external. What I mean by that is confidence and personality. Now your external appearance impacts who you are on the inside to some extent. Self-esteem comes from many things but a big aspect of that is how you feel about your external beauty. It's all relative.

If a S's need for AS is bases purely on external appearance then I believe that is selfish. But how can you narrow down internal and external beauty...they are very closely connected.

I can say this. There was a point in time when I did not think my H was the most handsome fella..this was years and years ago. Pre-marriage..mind you. After we became close and I saw his heart and compassion I found him absolutely stunning. After we had children and I saw the way he was with them....he was even more attractive to me. After watching him grow in his military career and seeing the awe on other's faces as they came in contact with him I was even more attracted to him. I admired him so much I forgot that he was human.

I know this might not be easily understood by people who do not know me or my H. I know that his inner beauty is greater then his outer beauty and other people recognize that as well.

It's not alway about women and boobs and being skinny and wearing tight shorts with tube tops.

AS is a need that is defined by the person that views this as a top EN. Being attractive, at least from me, is more internal then external.

OK....I'm sure I've either ticked people off with my views on AS or just confused a bunch of people.

So 3 - as for being a stay home mom and defining yourself as H's wife and Your Children's Mother....that is exactly what I meant in my previous post. We lose ourselves. It's not because we set out to do so...it's because we want to. Our desire to be the best mother and wife possible...no one should be faulted for that. Society is partially to blame....I am a part of that society. We all are.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> THIS is my hole point WHEN IS this need not a need but selfish. ? WHEN is it crossing the line ? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Had to think about this one. I think it becomes a selfish demand when your H chooses to be inflexible and unreasonable about it.

Let's say that you were a 16 when you married. Even as a teen, you've never been less than a 12. Your genetic makeup makes being a 6 impossible. It would be selfish and cruel to expect you to be a 6.

However, if your H is fully aware that you are capable of achieving a size 12 and he expresses his need to you, I think it's reasonable to expect that you'll take some action to work in his direction.

If your H expects you to dress well and make up when you go out together...even if just to the grocery store, then I don't think that's unreasonable.

The key is showing him your desire to meet the need...not the fact that you're not model perfect.
I will never have Schwarzenegger biceps, but my wife enjoys seeing me make the most of what I have. It WOULD bother me if she expected me to be something I was incapable of.

Now, if she tells me this is important to her and I refuse to do anything about, that's telling her that I don't respect her need. That lack of respect is often a green light to a potential WS to get the need met elsewhere.

Telling my wife that AS is an important need for me that I expect her to meet is not cruel. Information is power. By telling her this, I give her the power to meet my need wihtout guessing about it. In fact, it would be far more cruel to let her go on living thinking that it wasn't, while I was subconciously stewing.

I realize the BS can find this painful, but an affair teaches the WS alot about themselves. I went through most of my marriage suppressing my desires because I refused to be ruled by my flesh. This was a horrible mistake. In retrospect, it's far better to acknowledge these powerful desires, discuss them with your partner, and find safe ways to meet these needs. Otherwise they will explode all over you in undesirable ways.

My OW was not "model beautiful" but she worked hard to keep a very attractive figure. She worked at being a positive, confident person. That's what attracted me. Since I know that this is what attracted me to her, do I not owe it to my wife to give her the chance to meet that need now? Shouldn't she want to meet it?

Low

I wanted to elaborate a bit on aging...

Yes we will all age. But age doesn't give us an excuse to let ourselves go. I can list several women who are considered "old" that I would be proud to be seen out with. Lauren Bacall comes immediately to mind.

It has nothing to do with wrinkles...it has everything to do with making the best of what you have at the time. It's also about being age appropriate. Lauren Bacall in a tube top doesn't sound too classy or attractive. But she dresses wonderfully.

So I think beauty is, in fact, age independent.

Low

Low -

I agree completely. My H weighs about 150 and he's 5'11. He is in peak physical condition with less than 5% body fat (hard to imagine)....needless to say that while his body is very very defined and hard he is alarmingly small. People stare at him in his Dress Green uniform because is draws attention to his size.

That being said....would I like for my H to be a bit bigger....or atleast have a behind larger than my 9 year old?

I'd like for him to be larger but will I push him for that. NO WAY! I love him just the way he is. I wouldn't change him for all the gold in Texas.

It's making the best of what you have. It would be selfish to expect anything more.

low,

great post!!!

my BH has asked me to lose weight, he does not post here, he has not read any books, he does not know about the list of ENs, but he has communicated to me that me losing the extra weight is important to him. not only for his viewing pleasure (although i KNOW that is a big part of it, he is very visual and a photographer) but also because it is healthier and last night he said, he think i will feel better about myself if i accomplish this too. which is very very true.

i am very pumped up about getting myself back in good shape. I love jogging and riding my bike, i miss doing that since i have put on so much weight. i did a little last summer but no where near like i used to. i will be this year that is for sure!!!

AND, I can't wait to have my skinnier body effect my H the way i know it eventually will (of course this will have to wait until AFTER he heals from my A <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) but i am hopeful and i know we will get there and when he is ready for this body of mine again, i want it to be a good one for him.