Hi bigsis!

We met with the lawyer at our house a few hours ago. One thing that my W did that I was glad she did was 2 tell him of her A with RM, because we needed 2 know if it would be brought up in relation 2 the claim of emotional stress due 2 the bad faith on their part. He assured us that it would not be relevant 2 the case, and he would tell them so if they went searching for "dirt" 2 strengthen their case.

We talked a bit afterward, and I think we both agreed that we should spend some time apart,because we were just hurting each others' feelings. My W said, at one point, that her IC is annoyed with her about something, but wouldn't say what. I'll let her deal with that in her sessions. She seemed pretty firmly planted and unwilling 2 discuss NC, though I didn't bring it up. I want her 2 want 2 talk about it when she's ready. She also thought that RM was being respectful of my wishes when he handed her my email during the visit. She said he didn't say a word 2 her personally the whole time, and she didn't say anything 2 him either.

Since I didn't make it clear that I wanted her 2 avoid the visit before she left, I can't blame her for going. It just would have made me feel a lot more valuable if she'd found a way not 2 go. And more importantly, she didn't have 2 resume contact that lead 2 the trip in the first place. I don't need 2 be a rocket scientist (though I am) 2 realize that I'm not out of line expecting her 2 end contact at least by 27 months after D-day. Especially since it's been 29 months since she herself believes she ended the A (though it's only been about 8 months since I believe the EA ended). The rest of the elephant needs 2 be torched, however, but she doesn't think that is necessary at all at this point. Hence my need 2 get out and stay out for a while.

I had thought we were doing pretty well with the email communication last night, but 2day she said that she doesn't feel she's unders2d at all by what she says in her emails. I will see what Penny thinks I should do now, if anything, but I suspect that I won't hear from my W anytime soon. For now, she seemed reasonably comfortable in the knowledge that I haven't really abandoned her by leaving. Well, so be it. It doesn't bother me that she's comfortable (I'm glad, ac2ally). I'm not sure it will last anyway, but even if it does, at least she's getting reading assignments from her IC and she'll have time alone 2 think about what she wants (as will I). Hopefully, we'll both learn something fundamental.

And for those of you out there that might be worried that she'd "clean me out" and r*u*n*n*o*f*t? Not 2 worry. There may be a few K in our joint credit union account for work on the house, but our regular checking account is empited regularly 2 cover bills. For the 2 houses we own, we're both on them, so we'd both have 2 agree in order 2 sell them.

And since she's in agreement that we need this time 2 work with our Cs and on ourselves, I don't believe she'd leave, in the near 2 mid term, at least.

best,
-ol' 2long

Hi 2Long,
I don't think I ever posted to you directly, but we've both were being helped by StillSeeking, and I have been following your ordeal and advice you were getting from him and other MBers.

I am sorry you found yourself in plan B after working months hard in plan A and despite some hope on the way.
I am very reluctant to go into plan B myself, and for me probably it really has been 2long.

I wish you well and keep you in my prayers; and selfishly hope that your shared expierience will somehow guide or prod me into more proactive approach.

You are very caring person; I am sure your children know that too, and I hope they will let you know that despite current situation.

Hope you'll see a wishing star thru your telescopes just in time to have your wishes come true.
FBOW

Hello Q,

Nothing to say much -- just a word of support from Plan B-land. You've given them to me.

Plan B is not so bad. It's like drowning -- not so bad when you stop fighting it. I think you'll enjoy the calm.

2long -

So sorry it has come to this, but you really had no other choice but to leave, at least for now. By refusing to see how continued contact with RM hurts you, she is, in effect, saying your feelings don't matter. Until she understands the NC thing, your marriage is in limbo.

As far as the house and all the financial stuff - that's your business. You know what works for you.

On the positive side, it's pretty encouraging to see that she is willing to pursue counseling. Maybe hearing a professional tell her the same things you have been telling her these past 2+ years will shake some cobwebs loose and get her to think "right".

You know you have the love and support of all of us here, 2L. As always, I will continue to pray for you guys. Take care of yourself and your kids. Truly hope your son will be OK - I know your daughter is strong.

Dave

I replied to your email

Pep

2L,

It looks as if it has finally come. I am sorry it had to but I am hopeful that it will get your W off the fence and onto the side that says rebuilding the marriage is the right thing to do. How are you children handling this now that it is a reality? I how they are well, and that you are well and getting some work done.

JL

JL:

My D is handling this "okay." She understands why I had 2 leave, because we talked about it a number of times in the past 2ple months or so. She's very sad, and hopes that my W will realize how hurtful contact is 2 HER, let alone me. I think the sadness she feels is a lot like my own, because I realize just how hard it is 2 get some sense through the fog. My W told me yes2rday after the lawyer visit that she would have preferred that I just get angry with her and chew her out if I'm upset about something. I suppose that's in reaction 2 my withdrawl when I feel hurt, and her family's tendency 2 communicate by yelling at each other while she was growing up. But even when I tried 2 "reason with her" about contact in emails Sa2rday night - where I spelled out my concerns and need for cold turkey NC in no uncertain terms - she simply ignored me in her replies and during our convo yes2rday. This has gone on so long that I don't know if we can rebuild or not. ...seems like I was asking that very 2uestion 2 years ago, huh?

Pep: Got your email. I will consider it. My son slept in yes2rday, so I didn't get 2 talk 2 him much. He may be mad at me, so I'll need 2 find out and do something about it. The fire dept threatened 2 cite us for our trees hanging out over the street, so I'm going over there 2morrow morning 2 trim them or cut them down.

-ol' 2long

Don't buy baloney about what she would have "preferred." You would have "preferred" that she not have an A.

It grinds me a bit when people who visit trauma on you -- then critique how you are reacting to it versus how you ought to react.

2long...

are you really planning for plan b....
or just a time out....

While I realize it's easy when not in your situation to judge this....

but I personally don't care for
seperations just to "work on things"..or whatever the soup dujour label of the day...


To me it just sets a pattern of when things don't work out...we just take a time out....
It just sits wrong with me when kids are involved...very much a mixed message...to teach them in my opinion....

Also I think that if she sees this as a "time out"...to find ourselves type of thing...she's not going to take it seriously...and it serves no purpose in communicating how SERIOUS YOU believe things to be...

The reason why I am asking this is because you title this post going to plan b....and then you talk about possibly continueing marriage counseling with her.....

well, I don't think YOU need MARRIAGE COUNSELING...2long...I think you GET what being married means...
I think you pretty much know what is acceptable and unacceptable...

and I think you have done enough marriage work....and that if you are really doing this...
then I think it should really Plan B....

she definitely needs marriage counseling...
so let her go....
do plan B...with the possibly the last letter she ever gets from you....
she either decides that the time is at hand to choose and decide for real...
or her indecision will be her answer...

either way you will know the real truth....

2long...I wish you well....

ARK (who is NOT a rocket scientist...but plays one on MB... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

(ps ms. martin I hope you are well also....)

Sorry, but not surprised, to read all this.

I don't have anything wise or funny to say right now, 2long. Just that I'm reading you, as are others. We think about you and we care about you.

Q,

You're probably hanging from your trees to make the fire department happy; but when you come down, check in and let us know how you're doing.

Are you all about to melt out there???

Yeah, it's prett hot. Got one of the trees trimmed, but a couple more 2 go. My W was distant. She didn't get the job she applied for. She thanked me for helping, and that was pretty much it.

You all don't know my W. She's the most stubborn life form on the planet's surface. I'm betting she'll outlast me.

...but I'm not in plan B yet, officially.

-2long

Hi 2long,

I was thinking about you this morning, and I wonder often how you are feeling, and how your heart and mind are coping with this.

I encourage you to continue in plan A until you are officially in plan B. After listening to what your W has said in response to some of your earlier statements, I recommend you tell her what plan B is not - along with telling her what is it is.

.........." and so, I want you to understand that I love you, and I want to be with you, and I am not doing this to punish you or for spite, I just can't stand to live with you any longer while you have contact with RM. I just can't take it any more, and I need to be away until you can commit to NC."

Tell her what you are doing, but tell her what you are not doing too.

I suspect you will get better advice than this from your coach, but I keep thinking about this, and want it to work for both of you.

I have a chain saw if you need it for the trees, just come by and get it - it's in the garage if I am not home when you come by. You can put it back when you are done.

SS

Still:

"and I wonder often how you are feeling,"

Like gum on the bottom of an old shoe.

"and how your heart"

Still beating, though I have 2 check, frequently.

"and mind are coping with this."

For2nately, that's no longer a problem. I lost it a long time ago. If you see it, let me know, okay?

"I encourage you to continue in plan A until you are officially in plan B. After listening to what your W has said in response to some of your earlier statements, I recommend you tell her what plan B is not - along with telling her what is it is."

I won't go 2 plan B "officially" ever again after that fiasco in July 2002 (edited 2 clearly state "officially without proper coaching!"). I was definitely not ready then. I'm not sure I'm ready now. And I may have gotten some good news. My W is thinking about coaching with Penny!

"Tell her what you are doing, but tell her what you are not doing too."

Good points. What I have told her is that I needed 2 get away so we would stop hurting each other, and she agreed. I have also told her that I need NC with RM, and have even asked that we write a NC letter 2gether. She hasn't responded as yet.

"I have a chain saw if you need it for the trees, just come by and get it - it's in the garage if I am not home when you come by. You can put it back when you are done."

I've got 2 of them! We wear the darned things out, those pepper trees grow so bleeding fast! Every year we have 2 do this. ...well, not every year. Sometimes the branches fall off in the windstorms! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

-ol' 2long

<small>[ April 27, 2004, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Oh no, 2long, MY wayward spouse is the stubbornest person alive! He will stay with a stark raving looney to prove he is right!

AMM:

Hm... ...I'm betting the jury's still out on that one! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Though a WS staying with a nutball is more "serious" than one that simply can't get beyond the need for a "friendship" with the OP...

I'm not in plan B. Talked 2 Penny, and we're going 2 try something different. Improving communication. One of my weak points, particularly related 2 RM. I'll be moving back home next week, probably. Not really "plan A" in the strictest sense either. We'll see how it goes.

-ol' 2long <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

2long -

Hope you are doing fine in Plan B. I do love looking at the stars.

We'll see how it goes.

Yes, we will, won't we.

And we won't worry about you.........how about we will try not to worry. Or we could try to try not to worry.

I don't know if this will work for me. I may have to try something else.

Sometimes trying is so trying.

Shoot, I better quit while I am behind.

I trust you are still holding up, as opposed to feeling down.

A toast - all the best to 2long.

SS

believer, SS:

I'm holding up, though I'm having my ups and downs. Early this week was the rollercoaster dip crap all over again. Thought that, after more than 2 years of this stuff, I'd be long past that. But I'm not.

I learned something about myself in the process, though. Since Penny suggested I not Plan B and try "dating" my W by visiting but not staying over, I decided 2 take advantage of the unique communication oppor2nity that provided. By that, I mean that I am starting 2 feel more able 2 talk about my concerns without LBing - my feelings, thoughts, and ruminations about how we got where we are, but not by dwelling on the past so much as before. When I leave, I'm able 2 go back 2 quiet soli2de and reflect on what we talked about. And so long as I don't get melodramatic about particular parts of the convo, I think I really do learn something. Maybe a small something, maybe something I learned before but forgot, maybe something I didn't quite get but thought I had... ...I could go on and on (literally and figuratively).

I'm staying a mile and a half from work, so 2day I decided 2 walk, and get a ride back with a friend this evening. It was a beautiful walk through a park and along dirt trails, so I think I'm going 2 make it a regular thing, so long as I'm not staying at home, that is.

It gave me more time 2 think about now. Hiking does that, you know? So much nifty na2ral stuff 2 see, smell, and hear, that there's little "time" 2 dwell on the past or worry about the fu2re. I used 2 walk a lot, but that was over 20 years ago. It's nice 2 do it again.

I did think about my visit 2 my home last night, 2. 2night will be the third night in a row that I've gone over there. 1st night, my D brought home "Big Fish" on DVD, but we didn't get 2 watch it because I had 2 run off and get cartridges for the printer. Then, yes2rday morning I trimmed trees. Then, last night I went over for dinner again and 2 watch the movie, only my D didn't get home in time, so now we're going 2 try again 2night. After that, I think I need 2 back off a lot.

But I talked 2 my W about stuff after dinner. I asked her how she's doing, and she seems fine without me there (only I'm NOT not there, right?). I had been thinking of moving back next week, per Penny's recommendation, but I don't know if that might be 2 soon after all. My W needs 2 take advantage of the time alone for personal reflection, and if she doesn't "miss me", (even though I'm NOT really gone, just don't spend the nights), then me going home will just put us back in2 our respective ruts and we'll get nowhere. That's my worry, at least. I don't know if It's justified or not.

Being away, such that I am that is, has given me more of an oppor2nity 2 reflect on where I am, 2. At the moment, I would probably have 2 say that, on average, I'm not all that confident that I can or should try 2 save this marriage. I still think that the A lasted 2long and that my W is still 2 addicted 2 the "friendship". She is all 2 focused on the hurts that I caused her over the years, and seems little able, even, 2 recognize the depth of hurt I feel about what's going on NOW, never mind the past 13 years.

But Penny is a smart gal, and can tell where I'm "at", probably better than I can. My W has said she'd think about working with her as well as with her IC, and last night she mentioned a book that Penny suggested she read ("Why We Love"), and said that she was probably going 2 buy it and read it.

So, there are signs of positive movement. If I can be patient yet some more, there might be something worth saving out of all this mess. I just need 2 decide if this is a "mission" that is healthy for me 2 take on. I'm not sure at the moment.

-ol' 2long
P.S. I ac2ally had 2 go back and edit about 7 "2"s that I'd missed! I'm losin' it!!!

<small>[ April 29, 2004, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

I'm holding up, though I'm having my ups and downs. Early this week was the rollercoaster dip crap all over again. Thought that, after more than 2 years of this stuff, I'd be long past that. But I'm not.

Sometimes you seem to do really well, and other times you............don't. After two years, I try not to worry about you, but I find that I still do. You are too good a person to ignore - besides, I just plain like you, and I admit that.


I learned something about myself in the process, though. Since Penny suggested I not Plan B and try "dating" my W by visiting but not staying over, I decided 2 take advantage of the unique communication oppor2nity that provided. By that, I mean that I am starting 2 feel more able 2 talk about my concerns without LBing - my feelings, thoughts, and ruminations about how we got where we are, but not by dwelling on the past so much as before. When I leave, I'm able 2 go back 2 quiet soli2de and reflect on what we talked about. And so long as I don't get melodramatic about particular parts of the convo, I think I really do learn something. Maybe a small something, maybe something I learned before but forgot, maybe something I didn't quite get but thought I had... ...I could go on and on (literally and figuratively).


It's hard to know what to do when we talk to our spouse. You can get about a thousand different books, that say about as many conflicting things to do.

My experience (and I admit my marriage problems were not near what yours were) is that you have to remember the past - to the extent that it will affect the future. Many report that their WS just wants to drop it, and move on, but that isn't how it works. Things have to be worked through or the emotions that fuel problems won't go away. This is one of the things I hope Penny will work out with your W. I am glad you are thinking about it more, and it seems like from what you say that you are reaching conclusions too - hope they are ones that will help resolve this.

I'm staying a mile and a half from work, so 2day I decided 2 walk, and get a ride back with a friend this evening. It was a beautiful walk through a park and along dirt trails, so I think I'm going 2 make it a regular thing, so long as I'm not staying at home, that is.

Be good for your health too. I ought to start it myself. After you get home, start doing it with your W. You know, a few days a week, holding hands.

I talked 2 my W about stuff after dinner. I asked her how she's doing, and she seems fine without me there (only I'm NOT not there, right?). I had been thinking of moving back next week, per Penny's recommendation, but I don't know if that might be 2 soon after all. My W needs 2 take advantage of the time alone for personal reflection, and if she doesn't "miss me", (even though I'm NOT really gone, just don't spend the nights), then me going home will just put us back in2 our respective ruts and we'll get nowhere. That's my worry, at least. I don't know if It's justified or not.

She may be doing "fine" because with you gone she doesn't have to do the hard work of looking inside and changing. It may be relaxing for her in that sense. Either way, it doesn't bring closure to the problems both of you face. That may take some discomfort on both your parts.

Being away, such that I am that is, has given me more of an oppor2nity 2 reflect on where I am, 2. At the moment, I would probably have 2 say that, on average, I'm not all that confident that I can or should try 2 save this marriage. I still think that the A lasted 2long and that my W is still 2 addicted 2 the "friendship". She is all 2 focused on the hurts that I caused her over the years, and seems little able, even, 2 recognize the depth of hurt I feel about what's going on NOW, never mind the past 13 years.

But Penny is a smart gal, and can tell where I'm "at", probably better than I can. My W has said she'd think about working with her as well as with her IC, and last night she mentioned a book that Penny suggested she read ("Why We Love"), and said that she was probably going 2 buy it and read it.

Penny is not just a smart gal, she has a gift.
I want to know if your W has actually talked to her yet. When Penny tells you what to do, you already know she knows what she is doing, so I think you will trust her and do the work. You know also that it takes two to have a marriage. I hope your W is a team player.

So, there are signs of positive movement. If I can be patient yet some more, there might be something worth saving out of all this mess. I just need 2 decide if this is a "mission" that is healthy for me 2 take on. I'm not sure at the moment.

You don't have to take it - and you know that. You could be free of all these feelings. NOT - and I am sure Penny has talked to you about that. It will take work to get out, and it will take work to stay in. At least after your W talks to your coach you will get an accurate assessment of where things are and WHAT CAN BE DONE.

-ol' 2long
P.S. I ac2ally had 2 go back and edit about 7 "2"s that I'd missed! I'm losin' it!!!

Or you have other things on your mind.
When ol' 2long starts losin' it, the rest of us may be long gone.

This post shows your thoughtful side, the one you protect. You operate most of the time in a open, friendly, teasing mood. Competent, but aloof emotionally. You show more of what is inside in this post, and I tend to think that is good. Your W needs to see that part of you more, she wants to be emotionally close, to have someone to share with. I tend to think you hid those feelings from each other for about 13 years. You shared with no one, (As men often do) and she shared with OP. Share your self with her. I know it is dangerous for you emotionally, but that is what she needs. I almost bet she doesn't realize you can do that for her - because it has been so hard for you to open up after the hurt you have sustained.

It's difficult to know when to be soft, and when to be hard, but think about it, and see if you can read it better when you are with her.

Remember that she has wounds too. They may be largely self caused, but the are real, and they need healing. If you are the healer, a strong bond will be formed, perhaps An unbreakable bond.

2long, you still get to choose what you will do. Please be kind to her, you can afford it.

SS

<small>[ April 29, 2004, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>