Let me explain , whats the goal here ?

I would hope its not to tell them to stay with there S for reasons of children, and past promises.

I would think that an adult could know for themself that if they had an A and they feel they want there M and are remorseful then it can be repaired.

But if they are IN LOVE with OP , then shouldn't they advice be ,, leave . ?

Just an OPION , and covo . I mean why put the BS through the horriable pain of them HAVING there withdrawl and thinking they (WS) is only becomeing strong through N/C to live the rest of there life with the BS so they can keep there FEELINGS for OP UNDERCONTROL(lucked up)

Just me , but I didn't /don't want that .

I wanted to be the only one he loves , I don't want to know he still holds feelings for this person(if thats what ya want to call them)

If WS can't FORGET the OP completely then are they worth having ?

Like I said, I just want some other BS's thoughts of corse WS/FWS are more then welcome .

I think in my own case , I find it annoying that I think my H doesn't understand that thought .
Thinks I am crazy and inturn , probbly wouldn't tell me if he has feelings for XOW.

Becasue it gives me the power to kick him to the curb .

I just belive the honest appraoch , I tell him then and now ,,, If theres a feeling then I don't need ya near me .

CUT and DRY if I am not the ONLY LOVE then I would rather be NONE .

So life will change for everyone involved , but heck at least the WS would be happy , and if they made the wrong choice then heck thats there loss.

Hopefully the BS has moved on and now the he11 with them . YOU play you pay .

Just the thoughts

I feel the same way you do...but from having read several posts from WS's here it seems that after time feelings for OW are replaced with feelings for BS...as the marriage is rebuilt...hopefully some WS's will post addressing this issue

People get into affairs for myriad reasons. Love is not usually the top one. Oh, we think it's love alright. But it's not.

It's the wise BS that can past this too.

So what would be the goal? To help them out of the hole they are lost in. They are behaving in ways that aren't consistent with logic or principle.

It's becasue something is going wrong inside them. Sure, external factors can drive people into weird mental states, but in the end, it's how we respond to those external factors.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If WS can't FORGET the OP completely then are they worth having ? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know you're having a bad day, 3, and I don't want to make it any worse, but the reality is that we WS were initimately involved with someone who had an impact on our life. I'm speaking more of relationships than ons's. It's unreasonable to think we will ever forget this person.

I think you're really wondering if we pine after the OP...

Nope. Withdrawal is over. No pining here. I sometimes wonder about her and hope she's doing alright, but that's none of my business at this point. My focus is my wife and my marriage. So it's nothing more than the occasional "wonder".

Now, the $64,000 question - Are we still worth having? Only you can answer that. For many BS the answer is no. My ex-OW husband couldn't take her back. I'm very thankful that my wife's answer was yes.

Hope things get better, 3
Have a good day,

Low

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> it seems that after time feelings for OW are replaced with feelings for BS...as the marriage is rebuilt </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is this not a good thing? I guess I'm confused by this.

Low

Now Now ORBIT , I am not having a bad day , a bad life now thats more like it LOL

JUST kidding , please don't think that I post my total mood when I am speaking my mind .

I am not like that I do have the ablity to separate the 2 . (I walk and chew gum 2 LOL )

NO really just asking the question thats all .

I also read alot of BS post and know that they 2 feel this way (SOME) that they do expect the WS /FWS to forget the other person .

Just as I have forgotten about XBF's before H. (of course)

I do not want to sound stupid, I have been here awhile now , I know the FOG crap and all the alien it wasn't him talkin thing.

I just don't get it that there maybe WS here or in future that really feel the OP is the $HIT !(real thing sorry NY SLANG)

AND those who never see the TRUE OP for what THEY DID /there part in it all ,,

My H included , I am willing to admit that .
He still thinks the HO was a nice person .

Yes makes me mad as he11 , I mean on that resaon alone I sometimes think of tossing his A$$.

But all I am saying is that if they are so sure and I mean talking the talk serious and even while in withdrawl they wonder and after withdrawl why wonder about them .

Not very many took the time to wonder about the BS during so I guess if someone can make ya FORGET about your S then , maybe they are the one .
CAUSE if the S can't get them to STOP 100% of thinging of Op then well you get the picture.

I often wonder how many WS/FWS are really honest about how many times they think of OP ?

I mean a year from now you come home from work and said, hey honey I tought about SO &SO in the car ride home and got horney thinking of the sex .
we use to have .

REALLY ,, can they get the hole honesty thing .

SORRY to be so harsh with the last saying , but trying to make a point .

This is just how blunt I talk . Maybe thats why h thinks I am nuts LOL

3isa...
I'll take a stab at this....

First off all opinions here are just that...they are only opinions...
nobody..
nobody would stay married because some poster here told them to do so....

then we have the fact that infidelity happens a lot...sadly a lot...
so most people don't "come" here...WS or BS...many do just kick the whole thing to the curb....and remember the whole premise of this site is based on years of experience of a therapist who dealt with marital infidelity...and couple after couple though struggling and confused on both ends...did not just want to end it.....so he developed some type of road-map in what may be the most confusing episode in a couples life....

New statistics within the last five years show the greatest percentage of people that got divorced.... unhappier divorced than they were five years ago when still married...

and those that didn't get divorced but got counseling five years later are happier than before...


so in giving advice to WS which is all we are doing....
not telling them to stay married or not...which isn't even the WS choice realistically is it?
BS certainly can weigh in that one... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I personally could never tell someone that it is a good idea to leave a marriage for some OP...to many red flags...
too much baggage
too much damage..
divorce is a huge life altering change impacting many.....
and people need atleast a year "alone" to process and mourn...it would be bad advise to tell someone go the OP...it will all be well...

AND
you will never hear me pretend that it is "good" for the children....
and if people think our children want us to be happy have their heads screwed on wrong....
developementally their brains are barely programmed to peek outside of their own ID>...they don't give a rats a@@ if their parents are happy....meaning finding a "soul mate"... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
in an otherwise healthy marriage....they want their parents together....

And I also will never advise a WS that even uses the term love to justify their actions...
love is not always enough
love is not always the answer...

sometimes love has nothing to do with any of it...

I don't believe I have enough power to make any one do anything...

I think WS that end up on a marriage building site...are a little lost in life...
and sometime they have just misplaced their map...
some never did learn how to read a map...

ARK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is this not a good thing? I guess I'm confused by this.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes that definitely is a good thing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> that was my point otherwise I would not still be waiting for WS to come out of the fog

I think the goal is to have the WS really examine his/her situation and sort out what's really important and real in their lives.

WS minds can create all kinds of fake facts to serve their purpose. So to remind them that they have children and a history with their spouses is just jogging their foggy memories. Something for them to consider when they ask themselves the question, "Am I sure I am in love with the OP enough to leave my family?"

Since this is Marriage Builders, it seems reasonable that no one would advise a WS to just leave.

I know my H won't completely forget his OW. I won't either <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> But, no, that doesn't make him not worth having.

Well, they're running me out of here. I'll finish later if I can.

See ya!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Not very many took the time to wonder about the BS during so I guess if someone can make ya FORGET about your S then , maybe they are the one .
CAUSE if the S can't get them to STOP 100% of thinging of Op then well you get the picture. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I see what you're saying, but I don't get the picture.

There are lot of different kinds of affairs. Your point depends on the assumption that that the WS shuts off one relationship while they participate in the other, thus "forgetting" about their spouse.

In my case, this wasn't true. The OW never made me "forget" about my wife. I loved my wife through the affair. My affair was an "add on", not a "replacement".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> so in giving advice to WS which is all we are doing....
not telling them to stay married or not...which isn't even the WS choice realistically is it?
BS certainly can weigh in that one... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course the WS has a choice to stay married or leave...every bit as much choice as the BS. I could have left anytime. I'm glad I stayed. It WAS my choice.

Low

Not meaning to hijack this thread but since you are here Low Orbit wondered if you could give me your take on my situation from a WS's point of view...as you can see from my signature line married 30 years...DD July 2003...WS moved out Oct 03 but never moved in with OW and still hasn't...WS successful businesman but in the past two years after having sold business I find out we have no income...just assets to cover bills..we own everything we have...WS saw this coming I did not and instead of dealing with this took comfort from OW and buried his head in the sand...( I suspect WS is going through a mid life crisis)...WS and I have tried to reconcile four times since he moved out but I found him still in contact with OW...(OW is very needy and has many problems in her life)...the last time was in Feb 2004 where he stated he wanted to be with her to see if things would work out with them...I told him to go...the A will be 2 years old in June...when I sent him my Plan B letter he begged me not to cut off contact with him...the only contact has been through email discussing financial situations...we have not legally separated...recently in one instance where he had to come to the house for a repair I stated I was ready to move on and was going to file for Divorce...he stated he did not want one...he now tells me that he knows that things will not work out with OW and that they are two very different people...here is what he is telling me...he has started a new business and wants to get that up and running successfully before he returns so that people do not think he is returning to me only for the money...if I Divorce him the alimony alone would take a big chunk of his part of the assets...he also stated he is giving OW hints that he misses his family and he is hoping she will come to the conclusion that things will not work out between them..he does not want to hurt her and feel guilty.. he stated he knew he got in way too deep...he has stated he wants another two weeks to break it off with her...does any of this make sense to you Low Orbit or is WS still in a deep fog..one thing I cannot understand is WS still has not removed most of his belongings from home...is still getting his mail sent here to the house...and why did he not just move in with OW if he cares so much for her...any thoughts on all of this...

3,

I don't think the "program" offered by Marriage Builders has to do with guilting the WS to returns so that the marriage survives. This site is populated, by a substantial majority, by BS . . . they seem to be the ones, initially, that wish to try to pick up the pieces of their broken marriages. The advice centers around them because they are the ones that are generally here. The WS have checkout of the marriage, i.e. having an affair.

The BS is given the guidance to make themselves and their surroundings as pleasant as possible to show a usually blinded WS what they are missing and could be losing. This is enticement . . . not guilt.

I am a FWS. I had intense feeling of love when I was with the OW. I was in-love with the emotional high that I experienced when we were together. This is not the same thing as saying that I was in-love with her. It might seem like splitting hairs, but there is a world of difference. To be in-love with someone requires intimacy and time (at least in my opinion). And the time factor is a key. You need to see the OP in all aspects of their life . . . not just when they are on their best behavior.

I think that if one of your requirements for reconciliation with your WS is that he "forget" the OP then you are bound for disappointment. The WS will not forget the OP . . . unless they become brain damaged. I remember all the girls I have been intimate with before I was married. I remember the first girl to kiss me. I assume on of the things you liked about your WS was that he was caring and kind. Would you think that someone like that could simply use another person and then give them no more thought than a used Kleenex?

What happens, in my case anyway, is the intensity of the feeling for the WS become diminished over time. Positive experiences with my wife take over the positions that the memories with the WS held. The memories are there, but they become buried further and further form the conscience.

It has been three years for me. I still think of the OP. Not in a pining or nostalgic way. Simply in a human way. I sometime wonder if she is O.K. I wonder if she has rebuilt her marriage. I wonder how she has come to grips with everything that has happened in all four of our lives (she is/was? married too) Have you ever wondered what that green-eyed kid that sat next to you in third grade was up to? It is that kind of thing with me.

Also, you are not forcing the WS to go through withdrawal. You are trying to give them a reason to do it. Your spouse at one time thought enough of you to marry you. You are trying to show them that that person still exists somewhere under the detritus of life that gets heaved upon relationships through the passing of years. Dose withdrawal hurt? Yep. Am I glad NOW that I did it? Absolutely. What I am most amazed about is that my wife wanted to rebuild the marriage after the affair. I thought our marriage was hopelessly wrecked before the affair even started. In our case, we are a better couple now. We are also damaged and fragile as individuals, in ways that we never were before this event.

Low Orbit,

Maybe the WS makes the decision to return and maybe they want to return to the marriage. But it is up to the BS weather to take them back or to kick the WS's sorry butt out into the street. You are lucky, your wife took you back.

Hi 3IsACrowd,

I understand your feeling that the WS will need to knock the OP off that pedestal. And I think in some cases (like mine & yours?) the WS will have to be over the OP before we can work on recovery. I told my husband once (a previous affair) that I didn't even want him back if he was going to be moping around feeling sorry for himself because he was back with me instead of off with OW. (This was before I had heard of the addiction/withdrawal aspect of adultery though.)

Several months ago, I offered to take my husband back and help him through the initial stages of no contact and withdrawal, filling whatever emotional needs he would allow me to, to make getting over the OW less painful for him. He accepted but then when back to OW. AND this happened a few times.

So now I (and my daughters) feel we don't owe him any more '2nd' chances, help, trust... He's on his own. He and OW are currently broke up (for about b-jillionth time in past year), he's depressed, going through withdrawals... alone. He doesn't even have his family to help him - they live in another state and most of them don't even believe their even IS an OW! And the few who do know about OW were told by WH that he only dated her a couple of months and they broke up for good last July... WH won't talk to a counselor and won't take AD's. He won't send a no contact letter to OW. So really he's setting himself up for even failure and more depression IMO. Apparently, the ONLY way he's planning to deal with withdrawal from OW is to keep getting back in contact with her to try to make himself feel better. I simply had to protect myself and my daughters from any more of his lying and false recoveries, followed by painful rejection when he'd go back to her again.

I would think that normally, if the WS hadn't already burned all sorts of bridges by refusing to end contact with OP and promising committment to recovery only to dump wife and kids to go back to OP, THEN I could see the BS doing all they can to help the WS through withdrawal. Because I believe that's what you do for somebody you are married to and have brought children into the world with. It IS painful to realize the WS is still 'in love' with and desparately missing the OP. But it helps a lot to know it isn't really 'true love' with a 'soulmate'... just a very nasty addiction.
THAT I could help my WS with... once or twice...
(OK - I tried many times - my mistake to not get tougher sooner)

Not every BS feels they want to give the WS another chance. And that's OK. Adultery IS grounds for divorce, even in the Bible. Each BS has to ask themselves if they really want to go through the suffering of standing by their spouse/marriage, with no guarantee the marriage will be saved or that the WS might stray again.

MB provides a plan and the support to follow it correctly to those BS's who want to try to save their marriage. And while it may be difficult, not fair, not understood by well-meaning family/friends, painful... the info, advice, and support to accomplish it is provided here at MB's.

I do think that you have to be aware of your own needs. If there is something that you just KNOW you will need in recovery, then you shouldn't pretend you can get by without it. I guess it's like being aware of, and educationg your spouse about, what your most important emotional needs are. If it's something that Dr. Phil would call a 'deal-breaker' then you have to be honest about that and know your limits. I think it's sort of like the need to have your questions answered. The WS has to accept that the BS has that right and need in order to recover fully. If there's something, like defending/praising,showing concern for the OP that the BS simply can't be expected to tolerate, then the WS should be given the option of going through the withdrawal without the BS's support. Then recovery can be started together without the BS having to be put through the needless emotional suffering caused by the WS's foggy idolatry of the OP. Also, at SOME point the WS has to give up thinking of the OP as innocent, stop caring about them. I mean if years later they STILL can't see the OP for what they really were, that would be pretty insulting for the BS who stood by them IMO.

I know that I will not accept my WS holding on to the notion that the OW were good people, innocent, did nothing wrong... And NO - it is not because I want to punish or blame everything on the OP. I know that unless my WS gets a clue about how OW sometimes pretend innocence, pretend to believe his lies (which COME ON are literally incredible!), purposely scheme to break up marriages... then he will remain too naive for me to trust him. IMO the WS being able to see and admit the OP wasn't really innocent is a major tool needed to help prevent future affairs.

Also, the OP IS the enemy of the BS and the marriage. Whether they tried to destroy a marriage out and break up a family because of sheer stupidity or sheer selfishness (cleverly disguised as stupidity) doesn't really matter all that much IMO. The WS needs to get a clue about the temptations that adulterers provide, stop defending adulterers, and learn instead to avoid them liek the plague. That is just a fact that needs to be addressed at some point. Every time the WS chooses to defend the OP instead of the BS, the BS is being unfairly portrayed as being the bad guy, who is supposedly being too harsh in their assessment of the good guy/gal OP. BS (and I don't mean Betrayed Spouse there).
IMO it's emotional abuse of the BS and in a way a continuation of an kind of EA with the OP (even if there's no contact).

3isacrowd, all I can say is I here ya! Everything you're saying is what I feel. I will not live a lifetime of being second best. It kills me that H allowed in-love feelings to occur with someone else. That I know he is still in grief over ending it. At some point a shift has to take place here. I might have to accept his memories of the "B", just like I think about previous loves. Of course they were before I was married. However, I will need to know he is glad he chose me, and grateful I decided not to dump him. And at some point I hope he can really see the damage OW did by actively pursuing a MM. He sees it, but isn't angry at her.

Comfortably Numb, if you're still reading this thread, a question for you. A few months ago you posted to me and it was helpful. I actually copied your post and gave it to H. You and my H were both in-love with OW. How did you and your W deal with sex, if you don't mind me asking. H hates it when I call what they did "F"ing. But I hate to think of them making love, and have told him that. We had a good, open sex life and I now feel there's nothing special between H and I anymore. Did you and your W have to deal with that?

Sorry to steal this thread. CV

I know exactly why I am here...when I first dicovered Ws's A...I did all the wrong things...had a very difficult time understanding how this could happen at this stage of our lives...coming to this board has provided me with a wealth of info to understand what I am going through...and what WS is dealing with... and the stories and support I gain from this board has enabled me to get back off the floor and move on with my life...I have gotton so much stronger since first visiting here...I think when this happens..you think you are alone in all of this...to be able to read and post to individuals who are clearly understand has helped me immensely

<small>[ April 29, 2004, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: New Outlook ]</small>

Hi, New,

I never left my family to be wiht the OW but I did go through the MLC.

To be honest, your husbands "reasons" for not returning sound like cakeman excuses to me.

He has to understand that he's got something to lose. Sounds like he knows the OW isn't a great catch so he keeps you hanging on in case that goes really south.

He's fooling himself if he thinks he can EVER get out of this mess without hurting someone. That's a consequence of an affair. That's one reason affairs are BAD.

I think this is case where Plan B could be very effective. Besides, if your separated, the longer you wait to protect yourself legally, the more time he has to squirrel away your joint assets on his new "business".

Remember, those assets are yours too. He's using your money to finance his indecision. Stop him.

Low

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But it is up to the BS weather to take them back or to kick the WS's sorry butt out into the street. You are lucky, your wife took you back. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nice little DJ, RAG. Don't let your anger get the best of you.

My point is that BOTH spouses have a choice. The WS doesn't lose his/her rights as a free individual because they've committed adultery.

Oh, and you're quite right. I AM lucky she took me back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Low

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Besides, if your separated, the longer you wait to protect yourself legally, the more time he has to squirrel away your joint assets on his new "business".
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for your reply LO...here is the clincher in regards to his new business...since he started this after time of separation..I have no involvement in it financially.. he is only using funds that he generates from the business to keep it going and no marital assets or funds... I am keeping close watch on that...I do feel the time is ripe to file for a legal separation now though...so back into a tight Plan B I go...

CV- yes I have posted to you , but I think ya might be cofused , I am (W-BS) .I sure as $HIT do not love the OW LOL

MY H still is 'SAYING" he was not IN LOVE with OW (BUT I feel differently ) Do to what I know about there R and speaking to OW and H's actions at the time I am very much convinced my H was/is in love with OW .

HE is a strand bird my H , Will not admit it to me thinking it will cause more problems.
Rember I said problems, not pain .

HE does not like being wrong or making mistakes .

BIG ISSUES the boy has. Our R was/is always based on the fact that I can read him so well he never has to say anything .

JUST like at the point of the A , would never tell me there was an OW ,,NEVER I had to "CATCH" then corner THEM for him to say the words .

And even then he would say after woulds , you know I didn't mean abything I said, infront of OW cause "ONLY U KNOW THE REAL ME "

So with that said, sex,,GEE hard one ,, my H since back really has no desire for it , he swares it has NOTHING to do with OW (BULDODO)

He says its wieght, age, hes tired BLAH, what ever ,,, but its OW . See we never had the greatest sex life to begin with ,, I was saying no alot do to the way he treated me (VERBAL ABUSE)
BUT him always raring to go , 24/7 fighting or not . Also I had a hard time , cause I want wild and he supposedly didn't (BULLDODOD AGAIN)

We still made love 3or 4 times a wk except after A started we didn't for 2yrs straight ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

now well 3times a month ,,, so see I got some problems in recovery .

Aslo my BODY is not what he desires anymore ,,
That selfish EN . APPEARANCE !!!

YES all out there I called it selfish again , thats my opoin like my A$$ hole I got one LOL

Ok so if you want ask anything .

Hello CV:

I'm still here. You can ask me anything you wish. If anything I have to say is of use to you and can help I am flattered.

I will start by saying that convincing oneself that you are in-love and actually being in-love are not the same thing. How many times were you “in-love” in Junior High? I think what most of us equate to being in-love is the feeling we get when we are with the other person. The intensity of the emotions can be staggering. It is the way that biology has made us. If most men could logically look at what coupling with someone might cost them: possibility of disease, possible pregnancy and the financial and the loss of freedoms that it entails . . . for the next 20 years or so . . . there would probably be few folks having sex. The intense feeling are the bribe that you get for doing something that you probably wouldn’t if you could rationally look at the situation.

My wife and I were too busy and involved in separate things before affair. We had sex sporadically and not very often. It often seemed like a chore. She once said to me (after the affair) that she didn’t know that it was that important to me. If she did she would have made time for more play. Huh? Anyway, how do we deal with sex? Do you mean how do we deal with the sex that happened with the OP or sex with us?

Your husband doesn’t like it when you say that he and OP were f*ing . . . what does he want you to say? Or does he just wish you would say nothing? It would feel wrong if my wife called what I did with OP as making love. It wasn’t. It was sex, it was dangerous, and it was stupid.

My wife and I didn’t have a good and open sex life before, we do now. We both realized that it is important to us. It makes us feel more committed and closer. It is more special because we both realize how close we were to losing the ability to experience fulfilling sex together.

Immediately after the affair I was way to emotionally disturbed to make love. I wanted to be left alone and die in some corner. I didn’t want any contact at all. That went on for a while.

Next, with some counseling and a lot of reading, we went through a period of rediscovery and into the hypersexual phase. This has been described by many of reestablishing/marking/retaking your “property”. All I know is that it was really strange . . . and a lot of fun too.

Now we are in a 2-4 times a week thing. If a few days go by and we haven’t had sex it just doesn’t feel right for either of us. It is a bonding thing with us now, and it feels better than it ever has in our relationship. It may feel so special because we realize that this is how adults play and it was almost lost in our relationship. You have to be able to play . . . remember being 5 yrs. old? How many hours did you play a day? How many do you play now? Isn’t that sad?!

I hope my perspective can give you a little insight into your own situation.

Peace,

<small>[ April 29, 2004, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]</small>