Debbra, that is a sad antithesis of what can happen with a family and one who professes to be gay. I have seen some things in my career that are just so sad.

The nurturing of a family, doing what is Godly and then the belief/claim to this espousement of gayness, or the need to cross dress or to become a transvestite is clearly an ugly situation, painful to all who are dependant upon the marriage. Not unlike the phases of a "normal" A, you go through the pains of devastation and attempt to recover.

It is confusing at best. I hope that your situation is getting the counseling that you require.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That’s not to say I don’t have a clear knowledge between ‘right’ and ‘wrong’, but God also prohibits us judging others since we all are sinners. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But if we acknowledge right from wrong, isn't that judgement?

Is "judging" a sin as in "Thou Shalt Not Judge?" Where is that in the Bible? So juries are all sinners? Judges are all sinners doomed to hell? Or will God forgive them for judging murderers and pedophiles and putting them in prison?

Am I going to hell for saying that Hitler was an evil man? [a judgement]

The truth is that we, of course, are mandated to judge. We are mandated to judge right from wrong according to God's standard, using righteous judgement. If we didn't, then evil would thrive, which would sure make the devil happy.

Our prisons are full of people who can't judge right from wrong.

God judges man's souls and we judge his actions, according to God's standards.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Ephesians 5:11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

1 Corinthians 6:2-4 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church!

And the most BASTARDIZED, TWISTED scripture in the Bible:

Matthew 7:1-5

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. [Mel's note: and who wouldn't WANT to be judged with righteous "judgement?" I sure would!]

3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?


5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Notice how different the meaning is when that passage is read in it's intended context? See, it never tells us not to judge, rather it tells us not to be HYPOCRITES, huge difference.

<small>[ June 15, 2004, 07:27 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cardinal:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Suzet*:
<strong> Cardinal, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So, Gods rules are important to you? And if they are, then we just simply should try to abide by his "standards" or laws.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because Gods rules are important to me and I want to live a God-feared life, I try to abide by all his laws; “standards” and values for my OWN life without judging others… That’s not to say I don’t have a clear knowledge between ‘right’ and ‘wrong’, but God also prohibits us judging others since we all are sinners. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So is that to say, that in the church we should change the Bible so as to be tolerant of Gay Marriage, and not to judge? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No Cardinal, that’s not what I’ve said… What I have said originally is that if people want to judge homosexuals, they must also judge people who divorce and remarry for other reasons than adultery. A religious person who accepts the one (adultery), but condemn the other (homosexuality), is practicing double standards because divorce and remarriage IS adultery in God’s eyes.

Cardinal, you must understand, I don’t approve homosexuality at all, but I also don’t judge and condemn homosexual people. In fact, I have great sympathy and compassion for homosexual people who want to live a God-feared life but haven’t chosen their own sexual orientation.

<small>[ June 15, 2004, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Does anyone anywhere have Biblical support for gay marriage - This is my repeated question throughout this thread.

So...
"So is that to say, that in the church we should change the Bible so as to be tolerant of Gay Marriage, and not to judge? "

Should gays be married in a church that believes in the Holy Bible ?
Where does the Holy Bible talk about homosexuality, and what does it say about that ?
What is the force pushing this change in our churches ?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cardinal:
<strong> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Does anyone anywhere have Biblical support for gay marriage - This is my repeated question throughout this thread. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cardinal, you won't find ANY Biblical support for gay marriages anywhere in the Bible. At the same time you won't find ANY Biblical support for other EQUAL sins (like divorce and remarriage) anywhere in the Bible either...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cardinal:
<strong> So...
"So is that to say, that in the church we should change the Bible so as to be tolerant of Gay Marriage, and not to judge? "

Should gays be married in a church that believes in the Holy Bible ?
Where does the Holy Bible talk about homosexuality, and what does it say about that ?
What is the force pushing this change in our churches ? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cardinal, here is my opinion on your questions:

1. No, gays should NOT marry in church that believes in the Holy Bible and neither should divorced people. Like I've said, a religious person can't accept the one sin and condemn the other...this is called double standards.

2. Homosexuality IS a sin in God's eyes...and so is divorce and remarriage (adultery)... The same with ALL the other sins. All sins are equal and wrong in God's eyes...

3. The same force that wants to approve other sins as well...

<small>[ June 15, 2004, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

I agree with you Suzet, !

I pray that the churches will research this more. I am a little worried about this.

Suzet...

I was with you up until this last post.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and so is divorce and remarriage (adultery)... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, you're not willing to judge others, but....

I am glad that the God that I believe in is willing to forgive ALL sin, regardless of it's nature, as long as we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, and ask earnestly for forgiveness.

I'm glad that the God I believe in won't condemn some woman to Hell because she gets a divorce from a man who beats the holy hell out of her and her children, and then molests the children at night. And the same woman who, after suffering such abuse, finds a loving man, who will fully embody the spirit of 1Corinthians 13, and in another act of SIN commits to marrying this man.

But, we're not being judgemental here. And that's a good thing. Isn't it?

And Melody...as a Christian, I seem to remember some quote about "Let the one amongst you who is WITHOUT SIN cast the first stone."

I'm out.

Bob

Cardinal, I’m glad you understand now what I’ve been trying to say! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

(NS: I have sent you a response to my thread “Romantic love in M on your questions of yesterday. Please take a look if you have time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Blessings,
Suzet

Plumb Bob,

I agree with everything you say and I’m with you 100%! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> When I used the statement: “divorce and remarriage is adultery” I didn’t judge at all… If you read my posts very carefully you will see that I’ve said divorce and remarriage is adultery in GOD’s eyes. I was using God’s standard, not mine! But as you’ve said, God IS willing to forgive ALL sin, regardless of it's nature, as long as we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, and ask earnestly for forgiveness. SO true! However, THE SAME forgiveness is available for homosexuals and we as sinners can’t condemn and judge them. As you've said "Let the one amongst you who is WITHOUT SIN cast the first stone." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What is it about following rules. Our sinful nature does not want to follow them. Even if our lives are going to be better for this. When we obey rules, we have boundaries.

Plumb Bob,

I'm not sure if you was talking about yourself as well when you referred to woman in abusing marriages, but if so, I want to say I’m so sorry about your past experiences and I’m sorry if you misunderstood my last post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> What you’ve been going through is really sad. However, I really think your experience shows how important it is NOT to judge other people, because we don’t know their circumstances… I have great sympathy and compassion for your situation (and other woman or men in similar circumstances), but equally I have empathy and compassion for homosexuals who want to live a God-feared life but struggle because of their sexual orientation... I don’t talk about homosexuals or bisexuals who choose living that way, I’m talking about homosexuals who was really born that way and can’t help their sexual orientation... Just as people can’t judge you for divorcing your abusing H and marrying a loving man, how can they judge a homosexual who needs a loving, supportive life-partner next to his/her side and don’t want to go through life alone??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ June 15, 2004, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Not sure how many of you read the article I posted, but I just wanted to highlight a few good points:

Clearly we regard certain rules, especially in the Old Testament, as no longer binding. Other things we regard as binding, including legislation in the Old Testament that is not mentioned at all in the New. What is our principle of selection here?

For example; virtually all modern readers would agree with the Bible in rejecting:

incest
rape
adultery
intercourse with animals

But we disagree with the Bible on most other sexual mores. The Bible condemned the following behaviors which we generally allow:

intercourse during menstruation
celibacy
exogamy (marriage with non-Jews)
naming sexual organs
nudity (under certain conditions)
masturbation (some Christians still condemn this)
birth control (some Christians still forbid this)

And the bible regarded semen and menstrual blood as unclean, which most of us do not.

Likewise, the bible permitted behaviors that we today condemn:

prostitution
slavery
polygamy
levirate marriage
sex with slaves
concubinage
treatment of women as property
very early marriage (for the girl, age 11-13)

So how do we determine which parts of the Bible are antiquated and to be thrown away, and which are to be kept?


If you take the Bible as the word of God and you are going to argue "nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality/gay marriage supported", then in my mind, you must also argue that it was wrong to outlaw slavery, polygamy, and that because the Bible supports these concepts, we should re-instate them. To not do so, would be going against the Word of God and "contradicting the Bible".

If you take the Bible as the word of God, you should be consistent and take it in its entirety. Particularily, if you are using it to condemn or justify certain human behaviours.

On the other hand, if you see the Bible as a mysterious, ancient text containing many good stories that convey certain standards and guidelines, some of which are still applicable today, some obviously, which are not, then I think the gay marriage issue needs a little perspective.

Given that gay relationships will always exist, what possible social goal is advanced by passing on our antiquated fears to our children, and by framing the law to encourage those relationships to be unfaithful, undeveloped, and insecure?

Jilliana, you are not a believer in the Bible, correct? As I have read what you write and preach yourself, all I see is another individual who has confusion about her own personal beliefs.

I do not feel confused about what is good for myself and my family. The church that we have is supportive to honoring God, not slavery or any other odd thing.

I grew up in this church, went to other churches as I matured, and came back to this church. I have learned a lot. And it has made life good to use the rules and the boundaries which I have personally learned. Thank you very much for your responses to my thread.

Cardinal:

At this point in my life, I suppose you would be correct in stating I am not a believer in the Bible. However, I am reading and learning.

I sometimes feel confused about what is good for me and my family, but like to think I make some pretty good decisions based on the information available to me at the time. Sometimes it is interesting to reflect back on why I make certain decisions and have certain beliefs. I almost always learn something in the process.

Rules and boundaries...yes I have also learned about rules and boundaries, some stemming from the Bible and some stemming from life experiences. I still have much to learn, and I find along the way, beliefs and rules have evolved and changed, and generally speaking, in my experience, that has been a good thing.

Your welcome...for my input. Are you being sincere?

LOL Jilliana, sure and I am receptive to respectful argument most of the time that is! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I hope you find what you are looking for.

I understand that a lot of religions are like pollutants to the mind, which seems to be derived from the arrogant kind of fire and brimstone preaching.

I recognize the plight of some folks who will never be the same from that damage. Organized religions seem to want to control. Control of the masses....so some say...


When we look at the Old Testament, there was some sin going on in it - just as today we have the some of the same sins going on. I don't see the sins being encouraged as you seem to believe Jilliana.

What I see is a preparation in spiritual manner...History has sin, and today has sin.

What we encourage in a church is a big thing to me. I believe that if you are the teacher, then your teaching is from truth, goodness and will perpetuate good behavior - both to yourself and to your neighbor.

In the church there needs to be rules, just as a household needs rules, and a marriage needs rules. It is human nature to not want to always follow them, and sometimes in instances it is near impossible to follow them.

But the idea is to try to honor God, to do our best.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Plumb Bob:
<strong>
But, we're not being judgemental here. And that's a good thing. Isn't it?

And Melody...as a Christian, I seem to remember some quote about "Let the one amongst you who is WITHOUT SIN cast the first stone."

I'm out.

Bob </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So does this somehow mean that we are not supposed to judge right from wrong, Bob? Is judging right from wrong a SIN in your view? Can you back that up biblically?

Perhaps you could explain how that is especially when the rest of the Bible MANDATES that we ARE supposed to judge? How would you explain that glaring discrepancy?

I have been avoiding this thread since day one but I can resist no longer.

I don't think the issue of Gay marriage is a religious issue. Granted, I do believe that homosexuality is a sin.

How is two gay people getting married different from a thief and a prostitute getting married? Should we stop all marriages between people who live an "immoral" life.

The church seems to be fighting the institutuion of marriage when it should be fighting the sacrement of marriage. I can't find where it says that the church has to recognize gay marriages if the state does.

So am I for Gay marriage...doesn't bother me in the slightest, honestly.

"Marriage" has been diluted, bastardized and disrespected for a long time and noone seemed to notice too much. Hell, My wife and I can (and did) go to Las Vegas on a Friday night at 1130, got a marriage license without showing any ID, drove to Cupid's wedding chapel and got married.

The church recognizes that, all 50 states do too. I doubt that this is exactly what God had in mind for marriage when he joined us together.

My father-in-law is a Captain and has the ability to perform legal marriages. He did one two weeks ago but not as a ship's captain but as an ordained minister in the "Reformed Spritualist" religion. Once again recognized by the state as a legal and binding marriage.


I have a friend who is getting an annulment through the Catholic church( and a divorce through the state). They have been married for 8 years and have a daughter. I asked about the whole annulment thing..an explanation if you will. Bottom line, I guess, is to avoid the whole divorce thing, so that if she gets remarried it can be in a church and recognized by the church. 20 years ago the Catholic church approved less than 500 annulments in the states each year, this year it will be in the tens of thousands.

I guess what I am trying to say is I think that this whole argument of Gay marriage is futile. As it was said, you don't have to let the cermony be performed in your church. Gay marriage is a symptom, not the problem.

Someone mentioned judging.... If I see some one steal, I can say that is wrong. I can say beating your kid, being a pedophile, practicing homosexuality is wrong and adulterer is wrong (myself included). I, myself, didn't say these were wrong God told us all that they were.

I can't believe I am posting this.

Doug

Sin is sin right? Is no sin greater than another?

I'd like to use this example because it is so ridiculous. The famous "wearing clothes woven out of two different fabrics" sin. In theory, doesn't this sin not hold the same weight as homosexuality...if sin is sin?

Do we hold protests to halt production and fabrication of a poly/cotton blend? Do we ostracize those that choose to wear the poly/cotton blend? Or do we, as Bible believers choose to only purchase 100% cotton garments? Why do we not hold such fabric protests but hold homosexuality protests?

Why do we not protest the adultering employees familial benfits package rights?

Why such passion with the homosexual issue? What is it about this sin that gives it more weight than the poly blend wearing individual, or the adulterous heterosexual employee?