My decision. I told the MC yesterday that it was our last session. I don't know if it was the right choice but it seemed like a huge waste of time. My goal from the start was for my H to really try to figure out the WHY of all this. He has made no attempt to do that in all these weeks, he just tells me it will never happen again (heard that before) and he say's it's "in the past". He barely participated with the MC and I got tired of bringing up the same stuff over and over, only to come home and feed it to the big white elephant that sits in our living room, never to be discussed.

I was hopeful, I hoped that since he agreed to MC things would finally change. Now I have to be hopeful that they will change just because, without any help.

Things are very different between us. I FEEL the difference though I can't really put it in words. I used to believe without a doubt that he was with me for love. Now I don't know. I think he may be with me out of obligation or sympathy or because after all that has happened, the world would think he was the biggest jerk on the planet if he left.

I worry that he may have been so in love with her that he can no longer feel that for me. I worry that he feels as though he was given a *taste* of what real love feels like and is longing for that again, but could never have it with me now. He tells me "she means nothing" he tells me he doesn't even think about her. He tells me that I am the one he loves and he wishes he had realized that then, but I don't feel that from him like I used to. I don't think any amount of MC is going to change it.

Yikes! Hmmmm, let's see. He is not participating in the MC. But he says he loves you.

Good for you for quitting the MC. You may be wasting money. Either he is not comfortable with the counselor, or he is just not the type to open up.

But the BIG question is how is he treating you now?

He's treating me well, but there is a distance that I can't explain. Something that was never there before. He hugs me, kisses me (nothing passionate but we were never much on kissing) tells me he loves me often but it feels a bit forced to me. When we first started "seeing" each other again after the affair ended things were very steamy, they are as far from that as possible now. Honestly that is atleast 80% my fault, but he seems perfectly happy with not being with me physically (I say my "fault" but actually it's female problems that I have) Maybe I'm misreading his willingness to do without. Maybe he is just being sensitive to my health problem, but maybe he really doesn't want me anymore anyway and this is better for him. Heck after having my kids we never waited the time that the docs said to! He couldn't do without that long. I can think of a few times prior to this mess that he would kinda pressure me to have sex when I didn't feel like it (what an understatement "this mess" is!) now I can be sure he isn't going to pressure me, he doesn't seem to care much about it at all anymore. It's not that I want him to beg or work for it or pressure me when I'm not feeling well, but I want to feel wanted and I don't. I want to feel cherished protected and loved (I used to really feel those things even though he was a serial cheater) I don't feel that now. I feel disposable and like I am pretty far down the list of important people in his life.

I don't know how most women feel, but the need to feel protected is very important to me. I would give almost anything if he defended me against people who said or did anything to hurt me, but he doesn't. I would love for him to look back and realize who the people were that encouraged him to hurt me and not think of them as friends now, but he doesn't think they did anything wrong. I feel that if he truly loved me, and he really does think that what he did was the biggest mistake he ever made, then he would look back at the other people who treated me like I was nothing more than a bag of garbage to be treated very badly and he would be angry with them as well as himself. Not just the OW, there were several people who enabled and encouraged what he was doing, people who didn't even know me.

Lastly I feel as though he knows that no matter what I am not going anywhere. There are things he said he would do for me when we were just talking about getting back together, now that we are together, he has changed his mind and won't do them. That makes me feel like he may care that I'm here, but my feelings are unimportant. Making me feel secure does not matter.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My goal from the start was for my H to really try to figure out the WHY of all this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No wonder. You have the wrong goal.

Low

ok loworbit, tell me, what should my goal be? I have always heard that if a WS doesn't figure out why they did what they did, they will repeat. My H is a serial cheater, we have never gone to MC or done anything to try and figure it out before.

Since this is MB and you are a former WS, I'm sure that you will tell me that my goal should have been to try and figure out what I have been doing wrong. I have done nothing to cause or deserve this. Before he left me to go live with the ow, he asked me if he and I could still see each other (iow, have sex). see? The problem has nothing to do with me, our marriage or anything I should have or shouldn't have been doing, it's within him and the only way to stop it, is to figure it out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Written by TooManyLies:
My goal from the start was for my H to really try to figure out the WHY of all this.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Responded to by LowOrbit:
No wonder. You have the wrong goal.

Low</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">C'mon Low Orbit, that was a hit-and-run. Please help us understand.

<small>[ June 20, 2004, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

Hi TML,

I was going to respond to that retort by Low too but usually he is more understanding to us BS's.I think he will come back and explain things.

I do believe that A goal in MC IS to explore the why's.My WH has yet to deal with the real reasons why and so he is doomed to repeat himself with other's and I do hope it is with homewrecker,she deserves it.I know,my bad.

Anyway,I don't blame you for ending MC.If it's not working,a change needs to take place whether that's with the counselor,the treatment plans or with the spouses or all of these things.

Statements from WS's such as "it's in the past" are a cliche and are not helpful.Our past and present actions help to define us in the eye's of other's.Helping to get over certain aspects of the A means that you DO go over it and over it until it's DONE or it's solved,whatever.If it keeps coming back up,it was not addressed properly.I know that any issue regarding the A can be contentious but it is part of the healing of the marriage and quite necessary.

You're at a vulnerable spot in this recovery TML so please resist giving up.It's hard, I can sympathize even though I haven't had a true recovery myself but this is a test for you as much as your WH coming back is and what you both do to handle this.Think about what needs to be changed and work on that yourself.Talk to your WH directly.Not talking to each other deeply and intently is EXACTLY what gets us here in the first place.Spouses think that they can't tell their W/H exactly what is going on in their hearts and minds and therein lies the problem.We have to be open and honest in a big way or else we start closing off again and then looking toward other's for comfort or understanding,all that jazz.Ya know?

Well, I hope your WH will see how important it is to be open to discussing feelings and how to work from that.If he mopes around saying he will never do it again and thinks that it's,I don't have to do anything else,you are doomed.A marriage is a WORK IN PROGRESS.It's never DONE.I wish people would live by that ideal.When coules stop working on their marriage,it starts dying.It's not going to heal itself,that's our responsibility.

O

<small>[ June 20, 2004, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

octobergirl, you are so right! I have always thought that part of the problem is that he feels he can tell other women anything and they won't be hurt by it (that's because they don't care! ) he won't tell me anything that he thinks will hurt me. I don't react violently or make threats or any of that, I do/have cried when I've heard things that hurt me, but crying doesn't kill, silence can and does kill a marriage.

loworbit? bumping this up so you will see it, hopefully. I would like to know what my goal should have been.

I'm sorry I haven't responded more quickly. I have been AFC for a few days.

I think that may be a very appropriate goal for IC. Your H has to find out WHY he is doing these things. But I think having a goal of finding out what's wrong with ONE spouse is a terrible goal for MC. If I was your H, I would probably feel like I was being ganged up on.

I think the goal of MC should be to learn how to make the realtionship as fulfilling as it can be for both spouses. This requires a willingness to self examine and change on the part of BOTH.

Your stated goal implies that you are not willing to hear what he may need and make appropriate changes because you are convinced that the problem is all him.

Your stated goal may be perceived as disrespectful by your H. Had this been my wife's stated goal in MC, I would've shut down as well. There would have been no point in MC for me if I didn't think my thoughts and feeling were important enough to be addressed.

I have read many of your previous posts, tml, and I agree that your H has some serious personal issues to work through. But what I don't see is a desperate willingness on your part to make changes in yourself.

This is not an issue about who's right and who's wrong. This is about what you have to do to recover your relationship. If that requires some behavior changes on the part of the BS, I think they should be willing to consider them.

You sound like you are approaching this like your H is some kind of broken household appliance that needs to be repaired.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Since this is MB and you are a former WS, I'm sure that you will tell me that my goal should have been to try and figure out what I have been doing wrong. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You should be willing to listen to your H's ENs and be willing to meet them within your own boundaries. Yes, you do need to continuously examine your role in creating the state of the MARRIAGE that could've contributed to him seeking to have needs met outside the relationship. You don't sound willing to do this.

Low

<small>[ June 22, 2004, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>

I'm interested in this topic because at 2.5 years post D-Day I still don't have a clue why H got into an EA. I don't buy the "it's over, she means nothing now, it'll never happen again" either. I want us to protect our M from something like that happening in the future.

Rather than "Why did H have an A" would a more appropriate goal be "How did we allow our M to get to the state where one of us got involved in an A and how can we modify our behaviors so we prevent something like that in the future"?

LowOrbit, for 20 years I have wondered what is wrong with me . I've wondered why I could not keep him happy at home no matter what I did. I tried things that most women wouldn't consider (sexual things that he wanted) nothing worked. I treat him well. I would give almost anything to be loved as much as he is. I don't disrespect him, I don't get angry very often, even when I should. I could be a better housekeeper, our counter top has too many papers on it (things that we need but don't know where to put) he has repeatedly said that that doesn't matter to him. He says that he is happy and that I am meeting all his needs. He said that before too. I do know that prior to his last affair things weren't good between us, that was due to not addressing the affair previous to this one. He would not tell me the truth even when I dropped the proof in his lap, it's hard to remain loving all the time when that is what you have to live with.

One thing you may have missed, he planned on cheating on the OW even before he moved in with her! I did not know about her at the time, all he told me was that he was unhappy and wanted to leave, but he did ask if he and I could still have sex after he left. He had no idea if she was going to meet his EN's, it didn't matter. There was nothing she could have done that would have made him be faithful to her and there's nothing I could have done either. I'm sorry if you think it sounds as though I consider my H a "broken appliance" I don't, but I do consider him a broken man, and yes he does need "fixing".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by toomanylies:
<strong>
I don't know how most women feel, but the need to feel protected is very important to me. I would give almost anything if he defended me against people who said or did anything to hurt me, but he doesn't. I would love for him to look back and realize who the people were that encouraged him to hurt me and not think of them as friends now, but he doesn't think they did anything wrong. I feel that if he truly loved me, and he really does think that what he did was the biggest mistake he ever made, then he would look back at the other people who treated me like I was nothing more than a bag of garbage to be treated very badly and he would be angry with them as well as himself. Not just the OW, there were several people who enabled and encouraged what he was doing, people who didn't even know me.
b] </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">New developement related to the above paragraph. One of the people who "enabled and encouraged" is moving out of State. There is a going away party Saturday for her, it's being held at the home of another person who encouraged what he did. My H wants to go and he wants me to go with him. I don't know how I can explain to him that these people are enemies to me and to our marriage. I don't want to be around them but I don't want him to feel like we can have no social life because I don't like any of his friends either. Without going in to too much detail, the two people we are talking about not only said things to him like "it's time to end your marriage" and "you don't have to explain anything to her " (meaning me) they also did something that could have hurt my kids very much! That to me is unforgivable! We were fairly new here when he met the OW, I didn't know his coworkers but they probably met her (OW) I know they were very supportive of his decision to leave me. He told them he didn't love me and all the other crap that an unfaithful husband says. I'm sure that he rewrote the history of our M when he spoke with them, but a decent person would either stay out of it or tell him he was doing the wrong thing! A decent person doesn't encourage bad behavior and they sure don't help with it! These people did help him do wrong things and I can't sit accross a table from them and act like it doesn't effect me. I think he's being pretty insensative by asking me to.

I know that he is the one who did the most wrong, but if I am going to stay with him I can't harbor any hate for him, I can't forever resent what he did. I don't love his friends/co-workers so I don't have to forgive them for their part in it.

What can I say that might make him understand how I feel?

<small>[ June 22, 2004, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: toomanylies ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He says that he is happy and that I am meeting all his needs. He said that before too. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He's not being honest here. He's getting a need met by his affairs that's not being met in his marriage. Otherwise, he wouldn't be doing it. Maybe he thinks by telling you this it will make you feel better? Maybe he thinks that he doesn't deserve to bring up his concerns because of what he's done? I don't know. Maybe he doesn't even consciously KNOW what his ENs are so he can't articulate them.

I don't remember if you said that you completed the EN questionnaires. It's horribly confusing if you are working your tail off meeting needs that really don't matter that much to him. You see yourself as giving so much...but are you REALLY meeting his ENs?

I know that I used to work myself to death helping my wife with DS. I would get aggravated because she didn't show me the appreciation that I thought I deserved for it. As far as I was concerned, I was doing everything right. Turns out that DS wasn't all that important to her. So I've shifted gears. I put more energy into affection and conversation. Working much better.

Sounds like your H has settled into a pattern of infidelity because he doesn't know how to live life any other way. He might not even know that it's possible to have his needs meet in one relationship.

JMHO, Low