This is just an observation of mine... but please explain if you can..

Why is it that when a BS asks questions.. you tell them to start with plan A.. making everything sweet as apple pie at home so that the WS see's the potentional of what you two could have together... you tell the BS not to LB, IMO.. to almost be like a doormat..

However, when a WS comes on and asks for advice.. it seems that they get beat up on from the beginning? You tell them about all the stuff they're doing wrong and the need to take responsibility for their own happiness, life.. etc...

I realize that these roles are extremely different (BS vs. WS).. and deserve different perspectives, but it just seems so contracdictory at times on this board.

I guess it depends on the questions the WS asks...

BS aren't told to be nice...they are told to avoid disrespectful useless timewasting demonstritive spumage....

and remove themselves from the intense chaos that exists because of the affair..

to move slowly
to think big picture...
to seek compassion even in the midst of great pain....

when people blame their own unhappiness on others...and USE it as an EXCUSE and or JUSTIFICATION of their affair...it's nothing but hogwash...


It is a sad state that speaking truth is judging and beating up on people.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

ARK

FG,

I think if you'll look at the bigger picture, you'll see that anyone who is spouting philosophy that will result in damage to their marriage will get a 2x4 here and there.

It's not WS vs. BS

More accurately, it's pro-recovery vs. anti-recovery.

You also have to admit, more often than not, WS's have a tendency to want to try and justify what they did. There's not a lot of tolerance for that here...rightfully so.

I have never seen a repentant WS who really wants to fix things get beat up here. Sure, we may take a hit or two, but the overall feeling is one of support.

Of course, there's this one little niggling detail...the fact that the WS was WRONG. Of course we shouldn't dwell on that now, should we?

Low

I bet you posted this question, in part, based on my comments to your post with your partially completed letter to your BS.

Am I right?

I'm sorry if those comments rubbed you the wrong way, but I would not have taken the time nor replied back to you if I wasn't interested in helping you.

You may not know that I've been here a long time, have written a few posts, and many times stated that without the presence of WSs and former WSs on this forum, it probably wouldn't survive. I've also spent more than my share of 2 X 4's on BOTH WSs and BSs who for whatever reason may be their own worst enemies. Most of us here, as Low suggests, are equal opportunity critics when the situation requires it.

So, are you ready to get to work?

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong> I guess it depends on the questions the WS asks...

BS aren't told to be nice...they are told to avoid disrespectful useless timewasting demonstritive spumage....

and remove themselves from the intense chaos that exists because of the affair..

to move slowly
to think big picture...
to seek compassion even in the midst of great pain....

when people blame their own unhappiness on others...and USE it as an EXCUSE and or JUSTIFICATION of their affair...it's nothing but hogwash...


It is a sad state that speaking truth is judging and beating up on people.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

ARK </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't mean for what I asked to be taken with offense. Truth be told, we are judging. We judge people everyday (both here and in real world). As far as blaming other people for your unhappiness to specifically USE or make an excuse and justificaiton of an affair... i see that works different ways.

The statement of "I was unhappy in my marriage, so I went out and had an affair" may be what alot of WS say (i count myself among them)... is wrong in and of itself. But look at the whole picture, not just an affair. IMO (and that's all that I'm stating), I personally don't think that anyone sets out with the notion of... F&ck it, he's not doing the job, so i'm gonna find someone who will. At least thats not how I looked at it for me.

I think everyone will agree that Affairs happen because of some unmet need. Sometimes the need that goes unmet is not even known by the BS. Sometimes you don't even realize that you miss something, until it is presented to you. In the last year, I have read alot and learned alot... but if you would have asked me 10 years ago were all of my needs being met, I probably would have said "YES". If you would have asked me if I was happy, I probably would have said yes.. even though 10 years ago, my husband and I were not talking, not being a true "couple"... I truly did not know what I was supposed to expect. Am I naive? Maybe then I was, but not now.

Is my happiness my husbands responsiblity and is his happiness my responsiblity... I say yes to a certain extent. If i'm not doing what I need to do to make my husband happy with me.. and some woman comes along and does those things for him (maybe even without him being aware that it's being done)... then I would have to say it is my fault.

If I look at my own life... i can clearly see where I started to be vulnerable to an affair.. I couldn't see it then though (hind sight is 20/20). So, I honestly don't think that I'm trying to justify having an Affair. Justification goes no where in terms of making a wrong a right. However, if you don't look back and understand what happened, you are doomed to repeat it again...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LowOrbit:
<strong>

It's not WS vs. BS

More accurately, it's pro-recovery vs. anti-recovery.

I have never seen a repentant WS who really wants to fix things get beat up here. Sure, we may take a hit or two, but the overall feeling is one of support.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BINGO! LowOrbit has it exactly right, it is pro-recovery vs. excuse makers, NOT BS vs WS. And it's not just the BS' who get on the excuse-makers, we have many WS here who are just as likely to take a 2X4 to a WS who is not being honest.

Bullsh** does not have a long shelf life on this forum because most of the members see right through it very quickly.

Actually, I posted this in reply to a few of the comments that I've read to the BS. Including this one from Arc:

He often felt ignored, like he was a nobody. Might have been my fault.

who elses fault would it have been...if he felt ignored and like a nobody from you??

I feel like I want to be happy and he can't do it.

this is scary stuff ..
hubby can't make you happy
other man can't make you happy...
you alone are responsible for your happiness...

Which was directed to the Internet Boyfriend's thread. It sounds contradictory.

I did not get offended at all personal with any replies to my questions... I appreciate and welcome all feedback, or else I wouldn't post. And I did respond to you on my post...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FeelinGuilty:
<strong> If i'm not doing what I need to do to make my husband happy with me.. and some woman comes along and does those things for him (maybe even without him being aware that it's being done)... then I would have to say it is my fault.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Something about which you have NO CHOICE cannot possibly be your fault. It is always the fault of the person who made that CHOICE. Now, the state of the marriage is the fault of BOTH parties. [please note I said BOTH]

However, the affair is 100% the fault of the person who made the choice and had the affair. BIG DIFFERENCE. There simply is NO justification for an affair whatsoever.

relax wat it's not you its me...

feelinguilty....that was a direct issue with the troll who from what I gathered stated that her husband had come to her stating he felt neglected...and she said that she did infact neglect him....

that's different than having issues with a spouse...and seeking the fixing of issues...be it ignoring them or making them tolerable by going outside the marriage....

by the time you get close enough to someone outside your marriage to meet even unknown unmet needs...most likely you have already crossed a line of betrayal with your spouse....
atleast an emotional affair.....

ofcourse our spouses can make us happy or unhappy...but when trying to fix the unhappiness by looking or accidently finding someone else...will never fix the core issue of unhappiness with the spouse.....

ARK

First, most WSs need some help coming out of the affair-induced coma referred to kindly as "the fog." They need a bucket of cold water poured over them, a slap in the face and someone yelling "Wake the f**k up." On the other hand, most BSs simply need a plan to save the marriage.

Also, the board is probably 90% BSs, who are more than glad to do the face slapping, yelling and pouring.

The BS's here generally believe in Harley's method. Plan A is part of Harley's method, and Plan A suggests avoiding LB. Now, that means that BS can't really scream and yell at the WS--i.e., the BSs are suppressing their emotions. The result is a a bunch of frustrated, p****d off BSs.

At the same time, the newbie WS comments are pretty ridiculous. They rarely come here and say, "I was wrong. How do I get closer to Jesus?" A newbie WS usually says something like, "I met OW last week. I realize now that OW is the love of life, not the woman that bore me 3 kids and paid my way through college. I'm in love with WS." Stupid statements like that are like throwing raw meat to a pack of hungry wolves.

There is also some transferance going on...it is certainly safer for a BS to ream out an anonymous WS rather than his/her own WS.

I think newbie BSs here do make stupid statements, but the tendency is to give them a pass.

<small>[ July 21, 2004, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: Jimmy Mac ]</small>

Not an expert here but I just wanted to add one little thing.

I think the reason the BS is asked to not LB is not to be a doormat, but rather to keep the WS from getting flustered with all of the emotions that the BS is going through because when the WS is in the fog they can take the emotions such as anger and sadness as being overwhelming and use them as an excuse to be with the OP.

As for the WS being jumped on here, well, the reasoning behind being cordial to them doesn't really apply here to people outside of the H & W relationship. It mainly applies to the BS toward their WS as a plan to try to regain their WS by creating a more attractive environment that the WS feels comfortable in so that they want to be with the BS rather than the OP. So when a WS comes here the people here give them straight answers as to what they have to do to save their marriage. I don't know, it's just my opinion.

FG,

I have been here for awhile. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> And my take on this is a bit different. I really don't think the BS's are being treated much different from the WS's, although, I can see how someone might think so.

Here is my take. In both cases when a BS or a WS shows up here, the have an idea that the 'might' want to save their marriages. In many cases neither group is sure it can be done and if they want to do it.

The first job as a someone posting to either group is to ascertain if they want to rebuild the marriage, and assure them that it can be done.

The second job is to get people from either group to see reality and figure out what happened.

Now as you might guess the BS comes here hurt, in deep pain, and often just getting ready to explode. So the first thing to do is calm them down. Then we start with reality, do/did you LB your spouse. If so, stop it! Next read about plan A, your WS needs to know there is a path back, and that you can handle the pain well enough NOT to beat up on the WS.

And then we start talking to them, assuring them that this is NOT new, that it can be done. Talking about the fog, and withdrawal and what to expect. Many BS's still have a hard time letting go of the pain and believing they will ever trust again. And most of all seeing what the needs their WS had that they were not meeting.

Now with the WS, the process is the SAME, we often need to get them to see reality and that starts with getting them to stop the justifications, the excuses, and see what their partner is really like and not the demon that they often make them out to be. Here we are NOT trying to calm them done. We want them either through guilt, anger, shear force of words to see the possibilities in their marriage and that means talking them through withdrawal and all of the needs to call the OP, anger, whatever.

So the tone may seem different.

And then we start talking to them, assuring them that this is NOT new, that it can be done. Talking about the fog, and withdrawal and what to expect. Many BS's still have a hard time letting go of the pain and believing they will ever trust again. And most of all seeing what the needs their WS had that they were not meeting.

After all of this, something very interesting starts to happen here. While the individual may still classify themselves as a WS or FWS or a BS, most us see them a just people we have been talking to and sort of see as friends. At this point you will see the WS's posting to the BS's and offering great advice and insight, AND the BS doing their best to help the WS although they may remind them of their spouse.

FG, in my mind this is all a process. The done differs more because of the individual than which side they are on, but the goal in both cases turns out to be the same.

Does this make sense to you?? Oh! yes you will get some angry response every now and then, and you surely see some venting. But, day after day, year after year, the process is the same for both of them. Their marriage was failing and someone made a bad decision. The issue is not the bad decision as much it is how to address what led up to it and once we get by the startup you see the advice being the same for BS or WS.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

I think everyone will agree that Affairs happen because of some unmet need.

No. I disagree with the above statement.

Unmet needs lead to unhappy relationships.... and that can lead to a divorce if not corrected.

Affairs occur because the affairee did not protect him/her self from their own weakness.

There is a fine difference there I hope you see.

If a person's needs are not met in the relationship, there are options.

some healthy
some not healthy

Which option a person chooses to compensate for their unmet needs reflects mostly back on THAT person, not back on the relationship.

If my needs are unmet in my marriage, I may choose to drink myself into a stupor. The unmet needs did not cause my decision to drink, my weakness did.

An affair was a choice.
Unmet needs made the marriage unsatisfactory.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong> FG,


Does this make sense to you?? Oh! yes you will get some angry response every now and then, and you surely see some venting. But, day after day, year after year, the process is the same for both of them. Their marriage was failing and someone made a bad decision. The issue is not the bad decision as much it is how to address what led up to it and once we get by the startup you see the advice being the same for BS or WS.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">THANK YOU THANK YOU.. for taking the time to reply so eloquently and not making me feel that I asked a dumb question... Yes I understand, you answered perfectly and it makes perfect sense. I appreciate all of the responses.. and hope to continue learning.

Several posts above have answered your question. The only thing I wanted to add was a comment about a statement you made above...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think everyone will agree that Affairs happen because of some unmet need.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is NOT true!! Not entirely.

This statement is like saying that cookies are made from eggs...that is what makes a cookie. Well, that is PART of a cookie. But it isnt all of it.

You say that an affair happens because of unmet needs. This alone is false. And affair happens when a person has unmet needs, as well as something inside that person which allows them to throw away morals, commitments...sometimes even reality (fog). Want an example?

I have been saying that I am going to post my update here soon, and I will. Hopefully tonight. But a small part of my update will clarify what I am trying to get across.

As was stated so well above, the CONDITIONS of the marriage are the responsibility of BOTH parties. The actions of the affair are the responsibility (read: fault) of the WS. Why?

Ask yourself this question? Why is it the conditions in my marriage were bad (remember, we BOTH caused that), but my wife was the only one to have an affair? Why is it that she slept with someone else for almost a year and a half, out in the open...when I have only slept with her? What is it inside her that said our marriage was bad enough to go do this, and abandon her morals, her upbringing, her status in our community...while even after the A was discovered, when many would say I was justified to seek out someone else (I almost did once, as I was turning in divorce paperwork), I maintained my commitment to my vows and my wife?

There has to be MORE ingredients to affairs than just unhappiness. Shoot, while my wife was "happy" with the OM, I was never more miserable in my life. So, the happiness theory would suggest that I should have had an affair.

What is it in the WSs that allows them to cross that line? Not to say BSs dont think about it. But what is inside the WS, or missing in the WS, that allows them to chuck everything in their life for something that is doomed to failure, will cause immense pain to EVERYONE involved?

So, you see...just unmet needs doesnt do it. Otherwise, BOTH parties would have cheated. And the BS would definitely cheat once the A is exposed and they are on their own while the WS is living it up.

The answers you have been given above are excellent. But, while generalizations dont always get the whole picture, BSs do tend to be alike in this...and so do WSs. And the differences between the typical WS and typical BS will tell you why an affair happen.

In His arms.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> I think everyone will agree that Affairs happen because of some unmet need.

No. I disagree with the above statement.

Unmet needs lead to unhappy relationships.... and that can lead to a divorce if not corrected.

Affairs occur because the affairee did not protect him/her self from their own weakness.

There is a fine difference there I hope you see.

If a person's needs are not met in the relationship, there are options.

some healthy
some not healthy

Which option a person chooses to compensate for their unmet needs reflects mostly back on THAT person, not back on the relationship.

If my needs are unmet in my marriage, I may choose to drink myself into a stupor. The unmet needs did not cause my decision to drink, my weakness did.

An affair was a choice.
Unmet needs made the marriage unsatisfactory.

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unmet needs lead to unhappy relationships.... and that can lead to a divorce if not corrected -

This is assuming the person (affairee I guess) is aware that the need is going unmet. My point is sometimes, people are unaware that their needs are going unmet. If I know that something is missing, I may go looking for what was lost. In a marriage, both husband and wife are typically busy doing what is necessary in order to maintain. (i.e, working, cleaning, shopping, cooking, home work, laundry, bills, etc).. It's not an excuse, it's life. If I go for years without complimenting or noticing something as simple as say a haircut or maybe a new shirt.. and then "Sin-D" in his office notices and says, "Hey MrHusband, nice hair cut, it makes you look younger".. or "That shirt's a nice color on you, it brings out your eyes"... something so subtle.. Do you not think that MrHusband is going to feel good about the compliment? Do you not think that he's going to now think twice about what he wears? And while, "Sin-D" in the office may have meant nothing of it, except for it was a nice color.. the fact is that she actually noticed. He probably didn't think twice about the fact that his wife didn't notice his shirt, until someone else did.

I believe it's the little things in marriage that get crushed under the heavy (serious) pressures of day-to-day that make marriages and spouses vulurenable to affairs. Yes, sometimes there is a choice and most people (I DID) know when it turns from a harmless compliment to an open flirt... but by then.. your right.. the WS is weak, because it feels good to them.. and that sounds horrible, but it's the truth.

Affairs occur because the affairee did not protect him/her self from their own weakness. - So to protect oneself from one's own weakness, one should what?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mortarman:
<strong>This statement is like saying that cookies are made from eggs...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nicely done.

And beer leads to heroin.

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mortarman:
<strong> Several posts above have answered your question. The only thing I wanted to add was a comment about a statement you made above...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think everyone will agree that Affairs happen because of some unmet need.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is NOT true!! Not entirely.

. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">100% agree.. that is definitely not the only ingredient to this recipe.. I stand corrected.

<small>[ July 21, 2004, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: FeelinGuilty ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Affairs occur because the affairee did not protect him/her self from their own weakness. - So to protect oneself from one's own weakness, one should what?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just say NO!

FG,

Melody's primary point is that we have a choice about how we are going to respond to the unmet needs.

Unmet needs do not automatically lead to an affair or divorce. There are at least two other factors that I know of: 1) Loss of moral center, and 2) Opportunity.

I would propose that one CANNOT enter into an affair without these as well as the unmet needs.

There are many things that can lead on to loss of moral center. Mental illness, major life events, etc.

Try the experiment...see if you can imagine an affair where less than these factor are present.

Now, as far as an affair creeping up on someone. I use to think that was possible. I know now that it is not. There will come a point in the relationship, usually very early, that one will find themselves knowlingly and willingly compromising their marriage.

NO ONE wakes up in bed with the OP and says "Gee, I suddenly realize that I'm having an affair!"
No, they knew it long before then and made the CHOICE to continue.

Also, people in affairs tend to rationalize that they are in too deep to get out, so they continue. You're NEVER in so deep that you can't bring a swift end to innappropriate behavior when you decide to. The trick is DECIDING to.

So how does one protect themselves?
You kill any side of this "affair triangle" and there will be no affair.

A person should work to communicate unmet needs to their spouse, they should be proactive in preventing situations where opportunity may present itself (e.g. don't hang out at "meat" markets or with single people), and they should immediately seek treatment if they feel their moral center slipping away from them (as this is an indicator of mental illness).

Low

<small>[ July 21, 2004, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>