Okay, this guy and this book, "Passionate Marriage" has gotten bounced at me quite a few times on this board, by people whose opinion I respect. Up until recently, I wasn't ready to purposely "enter the crucible" with JABL, but I'm thinking that is my next logical step.

I don't suppose you could at least Cliffs Notes some of the major concepts?

[tucking my hair up into my swim cap and holding my nose before taking a big ol belly-flop dive into the deeper waters of intimacy...]

I am not sure you meet the minimum AGE requirement! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Reading the beautiful things you wrote about your Mom and Dad... I am 55! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Schnarch will slip very nicely into what you have studied via TA.

It's a pretty sexy book ... but it's not "about" sex.... it's about integrity, and spirituality and the deep connection we have to our lover when we use our own integrity to be who we are... and do not sacrifice ourselves to be in the relationship. We also are with our partner not with who we think our partner should be. It's also about loss and grieving when you risk the deeper waters if intimacy ... you risk losing that jewel .... because all of us will die .... and if the love is deep .... the pain is too.... ESPECIALLY intimacy through diferentiation....

Confused? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Pep

Hey, at least I'm over thirty now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Mom and Dad are, in part, why I want to delve a bit deeper. My maternal grandfather only asked the minister to say one thing at the funeral. He wanted him to mention that Dad and Mom were the definition of "Two Become One." And they really were. Yet they were very distinct individuals, too. I know that sounds like an oxymoron, and I can't really describe it. But it sounds very similar to what you are describing in Schnarch's work.

So the more authetic you allow yourself to be in an intimate relationship, and the more authentic you allow your partner to be, the higher you "up the ante" in terms of loss? Because you are closer and closer to unconditional acceptance of your truest and most intimate self? Or am I way off target?

Kat:

Okay, on the chance that you don't respect my opinion <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , maybe I can bounce the book at you just one more time?

You can't "cliff notes" Schnarch. Like li2uids, he's uncompressible! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Best relationship book out there, IMHO.

-ol' 2long

<small>[ July 29, 2004, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

2long/qwfwq: LOL. I'm not wanting the Cliff's Notes to serve in place of the book, just to give me a clearer picture of whether or not it is indeed a book I'm "ready" for and the logical next step in my emotional education. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So the more authetic you allow yourself to be in an intimate relationship, and the more authentic you allow your partner to be </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi Kat,

I got more of... if you dont allow your S to see your authentic self, you cant be secure in their love because you know they only love the person you are presenting, not the true you.

I loved that book. I like the idea that I have to hold myself accountable... being really honest, sincere, which is not natural for me (Enneagram 3 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ). Having true integrity! I think I'm going to go reread it. I rushed through it the first time.

Enjoy! - Dru

Dru: LOL, I'm a Four. Being "authentic" is not such an issue with us. More often, we're a little TOO "real" for other people's comfort. Can you say "oversharing?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> LOL

Thanks, ya'll. Will see if I can pick it up soon. Still working on finishing up Bradshaw's "Homecoming" for now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> So far, I think I have reclaimed my inner infant through preschooler. Still have to reclaim my school age child and teenager. I'm really looking forward to the teenager. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Hey, I read it and I was just over 30! I have some stuff that I typed out from the really good stuff at the back of the book. I'll try to copy and paste it when I get home tonight.

h4f:

Yeah, but you had Pep 2 help you with the really big words!

Can you say "differentiation?"

And know that it doesn't describe the sinking of iron 2 the Earth's core?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long

That does sound like QUITE A BOOK.

Here is an exerpt from it:
"Schnarch’s approach to sex therapy departs from the norm, both in its focus on differentiation and its often challenging tone. When Bill, for example, confessed that he felt he was disappointing his wife, Joan, when he consistently lost his erection during intercourse, Schnarch told him, "I didn’t know you could let someone down with your penis.

I’ve never seen a hard-on strong enough to support someone…If you want to make love, why not do it with the parts capable of loving—your brain and your heart—and let the rest of your anatomy follow?…When you lose your erection, do you ever find your tongue or fingers go limp, too?"

Sounds like a good idea to me...lol...Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Absolutely amazing book!

I read it in a weekend - could not put it down!whew! was I tired!

A definite MUST READ!

2long is right; I broke out my dictionary a few times. I was reading Jung at the same time and thought it was just slightly friendlier <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
But worth the effort, seriously.

Hi Kat,
I started Bradshaw's Healing Toxic Shame a few weeks ago. I kinda got the intro, now it's time to go back and read the book. It's not very big, but I'm thinking it's probably going to sock me between the eyes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . Wish me luck.

I'm such a 3... now that I look for it, I see deciet in my self all the time. I am so disappointed! I think it's why Schnarches book got to me. I bet you enjoy it - Dru

<small>[ July 29, 2004, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Drucilla ]</small>

PEP & Kat72 & others -

You two and JL have really gotten into my mind and done some walking around through some of your posts. Pep and JL ask those tough questions that make me squirm and Kat expresses so very well what is going on in my head.

This is something I have been thinking about for a while & it is a crazy notion but I'm wondering....

Since Kat may be jumping into more intimate waters and since you, Pep, have such a handle on the Schnarch books, would you be willing to discuss this book chapter by chapter with us, Pep?

I read some (most) of the book several months ago but it was during my very dark period that I did. I put it down b/c I figured what's the use. Now that I'm back on medication, my thinking is much clearer and I think this is something I'm ready to tackle. I'm really interested in this book but I just couldn't grasp it at the time.

And I really want to discuss it with others. And Pep you said something to someone (it may have been to BV early on in the "Appropriate" thread that really struck a chord with me and you backed it up with Schnarch.

I don't know - what do you think?? Or does information like this exist somewhere out there in MB land <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Originally posted by beauty4ashes:
would you be willing to discuss this book chapter by chapter with us, Pep?

I don't want to commit myself to something like this (chapter-by-chapter)and not follow through ... So, if you decide to re-read this book and begin a board discussion about some part of the book ... and I think I can add something to the discussion, I will <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But, I cannot be relied on to be there chapter-by-chapter.

And the book is so complex and didactic, I get something different from it every time I re-read a chapter. The personal reaction to the information is very unpredictable. Pretty challenging book.

Anywho.... I don't want to advice anyone what the book means... except what it means to me personally, because that's all I know.
Pep

Here's a "for instance" exerpt from Schnarch:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Quoting:

Basically, constructing your crucible involves extracting your unresolved personal issues embeded in your gridlocked situation and confronting them as an act of integrity.

You do this unilaterally, without counting on your partner to do likewise, and without getting lost in what he is or isn't doing.

Sometimes this involves owning your own projections, even when your partner doesn't reciprocate.

You focus on yourself instead of "working on your relationship" or trying to change your partner.

You stop trying to make your partner listen, validate, or accept you; you listen to yourself.

It's not easy, but this act of integrity is possible when you let the best in you run the show.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ end quote

I always think this folds rather nicely into MB concepts.

More quotes~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Own your projections as an act of integrity.

Recognizing your distortions and expectations from the past __ disentangling inner and outer "realities" __ is important and difficult work.

It both requires and yields a kind or moral integrity that's severely limited in some people.

Openly acknowledging your projections, especially when your partner is ready to blame everything on you, requires a deep breath and a leap of faith __ not faith he won't try to use it against you some time (he probably will), but faith you will hold onto yourself when he does.

Also remember, it isn't the end of the world when your self-disclosures are used against you.

Relax. Hold onto yourself: stop being outraged or "wounded".

It will raise your differentiation.

Your partner is likely to stop using your self-revelations when he sees it doesn't work to his advantage anymore.

If you won't disclose your distortions because you're anticipating your partner's response, you are dependent on a reflected sens of self.

Acknowledging your projections embodies tolerating pain for growth and maintaining a clear sense of self in close proximity to your partner.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~end quote.

See how complex this gets?

I adore this type of challenge. It is at once intellectual, emotional and spiritual.

BTW, I made paragraphs where Schnarch did not so I could make catching my typos easier for my eyes.

Pep

Pep: Thanks for the excerpt. Not exactly bathroom reading, is it? LOL

But it merges very well with the stuff I read last night in "Homecoming." I should mention that I tend to not read books from front to back. I jump around a lot from chapter to chapter based on subject matter (Well, I do that in non-fiction books. It tends to ruin the ending in murder mysteries...)

One thing that jumps out at me is the willingness to endure pain for growth. I was reading in the reparenting section last night about the "New Rules" you set out for your inner child. Number 6 is about delaying gratification sometimes "to decrease the pain of life." Because Bradshaw views it as saving you pain in the long run, even though he admits that delaying gratification is painful at the time.

Also, one of the rules is living in honesty. Part of that is straightforward not telling lies. But part of it is not implicitly accepting what Schnarch would term your "projections" because they are not based on reality, which makes them dishonest. Bradshaw's key problem with dishonesty (and he includes denial in dishonesty) is that it causes a breach between you and reality. Which makes it harder to function in the world.

Doing the Bradshaw work, I'm trying to peel off the "false selves" and roles I've worn in my relationships with others to be more authentic. But one neat thing from your Schnarch excerpt is the concept that just because I'm doing it, that doesn't mean my partner or other people I interact with are going to do that. It has no bearing on the work I'm doing.

Hmmmmm. That's going to take some processing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Schnarch isn't always that complex, but he is always that deep! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I 2uoted this in Bob Pure's thread:

"We all experience a difference between our level of functioning when we support oursselves versus when we are emotionally supported by someone else. The wider this difference is, the more our elevated functioning is not a reflection of our "real" self - not without a partner serving as a booster rocket. We latch onto people with whom we function better. Often we call this "finding someone who brings out the best in us" - but it's still borrowed functioning."

...and the more we depend on our spouses 2 "complete us" the more "broken" we are when they choose 2 have an A. But, with time, you will realize that it truly is NOT the end of the world. You need 2 work through this painful time - you can't avoid it (or, you can, but you run the very real risk of it repeating). It WILL be painful and seem impossible at first, but with practice you will improve - and be happier BECAUSE of the process, not in spite of it.

-ol' 2long
P.S. I'll have 2 look up "didactic" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />