Dear Shul,

Your H will choose you, it seems so clear. But he needs to be forced to choose.

He's chowing cake like there's no tomorrow. You might have to take it away soon.

Thinking of you tonight.

GC

Graaycloud,

Thank you for speaking .

I think this cake will turn bitter in his mouth.

(I can just see him there at his place with all her kids milling around.

He is tired from working like a dog all day. He just wants to smoke a joint and go sit on the toilet for an hour and read his book.

But he has to listen to her whine about her life and listen to her kids making demands...)

Whe he was here it was peaceful, I had all the time in the world for him. He could sit and read his book undisturbed, he could sleep, eat, do whatever he pleased. He had my undivided attention if he wanted it. I made him feel good.

He doesn't feel good right now. If she wants sex it will be an LB for him.

He probably is thinking what an idiot he is . Her presence there is probably an LB.

So he's there because he feels sorry for OW and because he doesn't have to worry about her laying some relationship rap on him?

What a pickle. You WH is a confused man. Has been for so long. And you can't fix him. I have to go back and read some more of your threads. I don't get him.

GC

Yes thats about it in a nutshell.

He saw this as a nice no strings relationship.

What he doesn't realise is that he has fallen into a deadly trap.

This woman is very manipulative, and selfserving. As I listened to her I could see how her mind works, and it scared me.

She is very subtle, very cruel.

I woke up this morning just sick with the knowledge that he has been spending time playing house with her and her kids.

I understand now why he didn't want me to know that she was there with her kids. It would destroy our daughter if she ever found out.

I pray she never will.

I wish I hadn't gone there, that I didn't know any of this, but maybe it is best. Thank God I didn't show up there unannounced with my daughter.


He must end this and there must be no more contact ever again with this woman, before it goes any farther.


There is a verse in the Bible where God says that my enemies are become His enemies- my adversaries, His adversaries....

This woman has made herself an enemy of God.

I need to do some serious figuring out how to handle this in the best way now.

No womder he was angry with me for insisting on honesty, on knowing what was going on.


I can see now that he had his reasons for not wanting me to know.

He hasn't made any commitment to her, and I think if I had left it alone he would have got fed up with her and her kids, the whole scene.

She kept saying that she tells him he should talk to our D and explain to him that he has a new family...NOT

He will not do this to her, or to me.

I pray that God will use this to deal with him - that he will finally see how selfish and cruel this woman is.

But he will feel very convicted about me knowing, and I don't want any additional guilt to come between us.

I want to tell him that I am sorry for pushing him for answers, and that now I understand why he wouldn't say anything and appreciate that he was trying to protect me, and D from being hurt.

That I will do everything in my power to keep this from D, b/c I know he would never hurt her like that.

I pray this is a wake up call for him.

I want so much to call him and talk about things.

I don't know what she will tell him we talked about.

I want him to know that I understand now why he was so stressed out.


I want to let him know that I believe in him, and love him. That I know he wouldn't do anything to hurt his D.

I just want to talk to him, but I think I will wait at least until she is gone back home.

I have noticed that when he is away from her the fog lifts.


Maybe he will call.

Shul, I think you handled your confrontation with ow very well.

Who knows what she will tell him. She may tell the truth, she may lie and it is possible she may tell a mix of both.

I do agree that your H is majorly cake eating. Why should he stop seeing ow when there is no real consequence to doing so?

You cannot allow him to have you both. If he keeps choosing to have her, he just can't have you. This is a far more effective way to get them to come home than telling them it is all ok and that you love them unconditionally. I don't mean berate or be hateful to him. Just stop allowing him to have you both

N,

Yes. I can only pray that the truth will show itself.

He has been refusing her offer to have our D there all this time. I think having them there this weekend was him feeling sorry for her.

(heck, I even felt sorry for her when she was going on about her life...)

But there are a number of reasons why I think this is going to come to an end very soon.

1. He obviously felt very uncomfortable when he was here. Now I know why. He feels like a heel for allowing her and kids there when his own D has been missing him so much and so lonely etc.

2. He won't deliberatly hurt his daughter, and knows this is wrong- that she would be devestated.

3. the risk of that happening increases with time. (what if I had innocently shown up with D in tow?) this would make him very nervous.

4. He isnt getting anything from ow now that he can't get from me:

ie: there was sex, but now ours is better- When they fist met, I was a typical overweight hausfrau in sweats. Now, 65 lbs later, I look better by far- she is fat, gross, hairy chin sloppy very masculine figure.
I am in now very good shape for 45, dressing alluring etc- he has been telling me what a sexy woman I am these days etc.The past few times he was here he couldn't keep his hands off me. also from some snooping I have done, she is very coarse, and into things that are not his style.

Conversation: she had me there, she is very good with words, but the deal is that it is all about her- her needs her crappy day, her kids, her life..( I got the picture when she went on and on about herself....with me he has my undivided attention, and it the focus is all on him,his needs, his day.. making him feel good..

Domestic support: She is too busy to really have time for his needs. He likes things neat and organised, very particular about things- she is an utter slob- her house is a disaster.

The real thing here is that he loves his alone time to read etc. privacy, peace and quiet...which he gets from me, but not around her at all.

I just have to be careful not to overdo it, not to smother him, which annoys him.

Recreational: We share the same tastes in music and other things. She doesn't have this in common with him. One thing they had in common was that they both smoke dope, and I don't, (not since before we were married 20 years ago), but he has been cutting down for some reason he told me- worried that it was interfering with his libido I think. I never rag him about it though.

That is actally how they met- he went there to buy from her.

Her kids are a major pain to him also.

5. Logistics: he lives 2 hours away from her, one hour from me. He isn't supposed to drive in this province, where she and I live, so he won't go there without a very good reason. She would have to go there, and she works, etc.


Fianlly, but most importantly, he is a believer, backslidden, but a believer all the same. and he is expereincing heavy conviction about all of this. He is miserable in his life in general, work , money, everything. He has been expressing to me that he feels hopeless, depressed etc.

It is obvious that the way he has been living isn't working, he can see that now, and he knows what he has to do, deep down.

I can see over the past year how he has expereinced direct consequences for his behavior- The only time he has really had any kind of peace is when he was with me and away from her.

There is a hymn..
"O love that will not let me go"

God will not let him go. H will have no peace until he repents.

It is getting much more uncomfortable for him to be with her than to not be with her.

Hi again Shul,

Ech. This woman sounds incredibly unappealing.

Before your H's reason for being with her was a truck. Now it's pity. Shul, these are unconvincing explanations for his being with her.

You should back off a little though. I think you have a habit of when you get a little something from him, you ask for more, which makes him bolt. Be a horse whisperer. Take whatever he gives and leave it alone. If he didn't have to worry about talking M and having you up the ante on him all the time, it sounds like he would have little reason for staying away.

But... eventually you need to reach a point where you're confident enough to plan B him. I think you're getting close. You sound upset, but I think you're doing much better than you let on.

I was thinking about the "Divorce Busting" methods. There's a lot in there about very simple, short-term goals. Not vague ones like, get him to understand such-and-such. More like goals for action. I think you might be in a situation where you can do some of this.

As for me, doing crummy. Just got a new bed, and I'm boxing up more of my WW's things. I have not heard a peep from her or any of her friends or family in two weeks, except the email after I was served. She sucks. The only good news is OM was obviously sad when he dropped his daughter off with OMW last night. He seems to hate his life now.

At least I'm getting fit. I'm starting, just starting, to develop a swimmer's body. The sparrow is gonna die if she ever sees me with my shirt off again.

But this is your thread. Sorry...

GC

Shul, I still truly believe that you must draw a line in the sand. You must say STOP or GET OUT. You do not want him if he does not want to be with you and only you.

It is very easy to rationalize WHY they are cheating. It is very easy to shift blame onto anything/one but them. Heart of the matter, he is actively cheating. No matter *what* the reason, he is.

A good friend said to me "Either you cut him loose or share him". I don't think truer words were ever spoken. I cut him loose. He chose to come back. I didn't welcome him with open arms. He had to *change*. He had to explore with a professional why he had an affair. To heal old wounds.

You don't want this man he is back. You want the man you married back. Don't accept less.

Get a job. Get out and work on you. He may find the fact the ow doesn't revolve her life around him attractive. It is that delicate balance of the one you love loving you, but not needing you.

Graycloud,

I just prayed that you will get the chance to show her your new buff body. And that she will melt.

Gray, you are a logical person, clear headed. Help me figure this out.

As I see it, he has kind of put himself in the position where plan B is neccesary to protect our daughter from being hurt.

Do I call him and let him know all is well and that he is welcome to drop by when he feels like seeing us, no problem. This is what she has been saying..that he should spend a bit more time with his kid.

The woman is devious.

Or do I tell him that I appreciate that he tried to protect our D, and that I know he would never hurt her or their relationship by bringing her over there etc, as OW tried to persuade him.

That I understand that he felt sorry for her and kids, that he is a nice guy, after all.

That we can't risk daughter finding out, so it would be better if we limited contact until such a time as he is done with OW for good.

That we want him and need him and love him. That his daughter misses him, and that I know he loves her but the longer this goes on the more he runs the risk of her getting hurt.

He doesn't know what I am thinking right now. I don't know what OW has said. He probably knows I am upset that he would spend time with those kids, but told himself that he was just doing them a favor, letting them stay at the cottage, poor kids etc, and that he would be at work all day anyway.

She couldn't care less what our daughter feels, but she is pretending that to so as not look like a b***. She knows he cares about his D.

He is probably wondering what the h*** he was thinking to have them out there for the weekend- I guess she persuaded him. But I bet he is regretting it now.

His conscience will be bothering him.

He got himself into this mess.

I think he will have to get himself out.

Waht do you think?

Or maybe I shouldn't say anything.

So far I have gone dark since yesterday. Maybe that is best since she is still there anyway.

I have been praying about this all day, and I still don't know what to do.

I really hope I haven't blown the chance to plan A when things were starting to go well.


But ,maybe it would have just gone on and on....

Thanks, Shul, for your prayers. I need them.

Protecting your DD is I think another good reason to get into plan B, but you need to be a little more serious about it. I think that what people say here is correct - it has to be real, total darkness from you, or it won't have the desired plan B effect.

How long has it been again since you lived together and he was not having sex with anybody else? And how long since you started doing a good plan A?

Don't thank him for keeping your DD away from OM and his A! It tells him that the A is okay so long as DD is insulated from it. And he should NOT be given an attaboy for any of it. He's supposed to protect his DD. You should not have to thank him for that. It's a boundary that he should not dare violate. You should raise the roof if he does violate it, and I mean in a big way. This is one of those boundaries that must be enforced, even if it requires some LBing. If anything, you should tell him, in your best plan A voice and language, don't you DARE take our DD anywhere near OW. Boundary, boundary, boundary. Huuuuuge boundary.

Don't let this A get any more "normal" than it has. Your WH needs to figure out that it is not healthy, loving behavior. Don't appreciate anything about the way he conducts it.

Nor should you tell him you appreciate his sympathy for OM. Stop caring about her. And you probably shouldn't talk to her any more. Her words are poisonous. How can you know if anything that comes out of her mouth is sincere and true?

I think if you're going to do plan B, you should first get yourself re-established in a less demanding plan A. Don't sweat the recent drama any more, just learn from it and keep going. You can't let drama pull you a$$-backward into plan B. You have to go into it deliberately and officially. Staying quiet for a bit until he reaches out to you again is not necessarily a bad thing though. You're just backing off a little.

And don't forget that my advice is coming from someone whose seemingly excellent plan A seems to have done no good at all, as far as bringing back the WS. It has made me a better man though.

GC

Hi Shul -you are killing me here. our lives are SO parallel.....what are you doing??????????? all of our praying and talking----One that deals in evil shall flee to their own doom...let none stand in their way......PLEASE let the Lord deal with your husband!!! You are killing yourself day by day as surely as I am sitting here. I think you have a REAL chance- but that guy has got to be SHOWN by your absence what he is throwing away...you have watched me spin for weeks....and you have seen me FINALLY get a grip- come on girl-I am rooting for you- stand up and step back and watch God do His work and His will. you are adding homemade ice cream to h cake and lifting the fork to his lips.


praying hard for you...JOIN ME and Jesus....HE is waiting for you to REALLY hand it over to him!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PEACE OUT,,,and IN!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">it has to be real, total darkness from you, or it won't have the desired plan B effect.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok , I get that. I could start right now, couldn't I. I am already dark. He isn't stupid. Letters and such will just p** him off. This way might be more effective.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How long has it been again since you lived together and he was not having sex with anybody else? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It will be a year in September since he left. He started sleeping with this woman about 1 year before that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't thank him for keeping your DD away from OM and his A! It tells him that the A is okay so long as DD is insulated from it. And he should NOT be given an attaboy for any of it. He's supposed to protect his DD. You should not have to thank him for that. It's a boundary that he should not dare violate. You should raise the roof if he does violate it, and I mean in a big way. This is one of those boundaries that must be enforced, even if it requires some LBing. If anything, you should tell him, in your best plan A voice and language, don't you DARE take our DD anywhere near OW. Boundary, boundary, boundary. Huuuuuge boundary.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh God , you are so right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't let this A get any more "normal" than it has. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been doing such a good job of not judging him that he is telling himself I don't care?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think if you're going to do plan B, you should first get yourself re-established in a less demanding plan A. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Shoot, well we will see if he calls me , otherwise I guess we are in plan B. I wont call him.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And don't forget that my advice is coming from someone whose seemingly excellent plan A seems to have done no good at all, as far as bringing back the WS. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That remains to be seen. She noticed, don't you worry. She is watching your every move.

Graycloud, I want to say, you are an amazing guy. She is blind, is all.

BTW, I think God is trying to reach you through these things..He wants you to ask for help.


Sprezz,


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">PLEASE let the Lord deal with your husband!!! You are killing yourself day by day as surely as I am sitting here. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gee, you think that is why He keeps telling me 'not to be dismayed', that he has things under control?

I am just so scared Sprezz. Tired. Discouraged. 18 years, and my instincts are to fight for him. I have stood in the gap until my wings are put together with duct tape and baling wire.

I would give up my life no problem if it meant he would be healed and know Gods love. I am not kidding.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">stand up and step back and watch God do His work and His will. you are adding homemade ice cream to h cake and lifting the fork to his lips.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, Tell you what I am going to do.

I am going to take my hands off for the next 24 hours , and see how it goes.


God has so many ways He could deal with this. He could arrange it so that H has a close brush with death, or the OW gets diarhha or major PMS, and LB's him a good one.

He could fix it so that H gets an anxiety attack, or gets arrested, or the van breaks down, or the roof falls in, a plague of locusts, rivers of blood, mosquitoes the size of birds...his pecker could shrivel up when he sees her neekid, she farts at the wrong time, she gets BO, warts , her hair falls out, she gets scabs all over(this is in the bible no kidding)...

God can do anything.

I am getting out of the way. This should be good. I can't wait to find out what happens...


I Love you guys.

Shul!!! 24 hours- sounds simple and I hope it is-get thru it- sleep thru it- work thru it- sing thru it- walk thru it- ANYTHING you have to do- just keep your hands off that phone/email/steering wheel /whatever!! and then get through another 24 hours- one minute at a time --some of it will be- but keep at it. SAVE YOURSELF. I haven't been dark for long and already my h has called 4x-emailed 3x and sought out sons several times. let him LOOK. I have NO idea what my h is thinking or planning and it DOESN'T MATTER. I matter. YOU matter. OUR CHILDREN matter. WE CANNOT CONTROL THEM. I know some MB's are LOL at this- it takes us all FOREVER to GET the MESSAGE. but GET IT!!!! when you do see h-you WILL be prepared. I am praying for you- like we pray together.....and for our h's. KEEP THE FAITH. God has WONDEROUS plans for us.!!!!!!!!!!!!

PEACE OUT..and IN!!

It is in His hands for tonight.

Thank you Sprezz.

God bless. I am praying for you too.

Love is irresistable.

Shul,

Thank you for your kind words. The sparrow may be thinking of me, but she has shown no sign of it. I haven't heard from her in a week, and I haven't seen her in two weeks. I feel like reaching out again, but I did just send her flowers two days ago. Of course, I got no response.

BTW, I think God is trying to reach you through these things...He wants you to ask for help.

I wish I could believe. I'd love to talk to you off-line about this.

Back to you.

You aren't in plan B, sis. I don't believe you'd turn him away if he showed up at your door, and I bet if he called you'd talk to him. That isn't plan B. Sit tight a bit. You're still all caught up in the recent drama. Let it cool down. Just back off for now.

I take it you aren't seeing an IC. I'm so sorry you've been caught up in your WH's funky behavior for this long, always watching, waiting, thinking, what do I do next. You must be so tired. I've talked to my IC about MB a little. She likes the sound of it, but she worries about plan A brainwashing a person into not enforcing those pesky boundaries that protect your self-respect and your family and so on.

It's not about pride. If you feel disrespected by something he says or does, it's likely that not protesting will diminish his respect for you. Make sense? The trick is to protest without a LB. It's a hard skill. If you're with him, I don't think you should be down with any talk about OW.

I do think there is a danger to the WS getting the idea that you're okay in a way with the A, because you're so cool and upbeat and positive if you're doing a good plan A. After my first big meeting with the sparrow, even though I told her I didn't want a divorce and believed we could have a future together, she started emailing me about her plans with OM! Outrageous! I thought, how could she think that's okay? Did she not hear me when I said I wanted us to be together?

That's part of why I said you need to not care about OW. I get the impression that your faith teaches you that you should try to show everybody love. But this woman is hurting you, and showing interest in her existence makes you a volunteer for this love triange, and might legitimize the A in some weird way, take away some of WH's guilt. I think you should let her be your enemy for now. Don't make nice-nice with her any more.

Your H wants two lives. With you, there's virtue and family and stability. With her, there's relaxation and smoking a spliff after work and little responsibility. I sure wish he could pick.

What was his disorder called again? How would his doctor feel about the pot smoking w/r/t his illness? And is all that crazy S&M stuff over and done with (for all you know)? Sheesh.

Another Sat. night alone. OMW emailed me that she was lonely, and I invited her to call, but she didn't. We do need to be careful not to get too close. She's pregnant, depressed, lonely, and misses her stupid WH. And this is a cool, smart, attractive woman. What a rotten deal.

GC

shul...

has he
is he
spending time with daughter at all...
time with her...

when was the last time...
when is the next time...

there in lies the all the answers to all of this..

ark
who is waiting for a reply before advising..
and is hopeful that the answer is that he is spending time with her....

Ark,

He saw us both a week ago. He came here (I found out it was after he took the ow home after she had spent the weekend at his place )and he was very loving.

Go figure. He spends the weekend with her and then shows up here very glad to see us.

He was in a kind of remorseful mood, saying he wasn't there out of obligation or to get anything from me, that he just missed us and wanted to be with us.

We had a good time I thought. It was the three of us.

Now I wonder if the ow didn't tell him he should go see us.

Maybe thats why he was here. Maybe ow told him to come.


She says she has been encouraging him to come here and spend time with his D.

Other than that, he has made very little effort to see her in the past year.

He would call once in a while, and not even mention her name or ask how she was.

I know he thinks about her, but it was probably guilt.

So now I don't know.

Maybe he was throwing her a bone , to make himself feel better, not as guilty.

I don't know what he really feels.