Folks, Apologies in advance for the long thread...
I was reading a few other postings on verbal abuse (and was initially shocked on it's definition). I was after an honest opinion. (I.E. am I verbally abusive). The following were the key areas for arguments prior to WS's A.

1. Chores
As many of you may be aware form previous threads, I like a tidy place. WW is a bit more "relaxed" about doing chores and general clenliness. For example I will wash up as soon as I finish dinner, WW will wait until 10:30pm when TV shows are over before she starts to think about it. I will do the washing (laundering) every 2 - 3 days, WS will wait until the pile is 3 feet high or until I make a comment about it. I will vaccuum every 1 - 2 weeks, WS is hapy to leave it for a month.

2. Friends
WS loves to be the life of the party and is nowadays becoming more materialistic. She has a knack of attracting less than desirable friends (like her new group of cheating friends) or people who are financially much better off than us ( and wants to emulate their lifestyles). I am not happy about this and encourage her to seek out a better class of friends and unfortunately criticise some her choice of friends.

2a. Alchohol
Tends to like a drink when we go out but doesn't handle alchohol very well. Hides the fact that she drinks when I am not around although you can smell and see it in her eyes. WS turns into a different person after drinking too much. It also makes her lose her inhibitions / best judgement as a result. She was drunk when I cought her with OM. As a result I am not very heppy about her drinking with the "girls" till the wee hours of the morning or if I am not around.

3. Spending
WS wants a bigger house, nicer car (euro luxury model) even though our car is 2years old. Constantly spends on clothes and accessories, but never shows any interest in planning / working towards long term future, although she says she does. I on the other hand make do with last seasons clothes and rarely but anything for myself. This causes me to resent her for not thinking of us...

4. Conflict
Impossible to sit down and discuss anything that is contentious or to get an opinion out of her as she clams up whenever the conversation gets a little heated. It's better in WS' opinion to avoid an argument thereby relive the mistakes 100 times (which frustrates me).

5. Lies
Lies about everything and anything. Mixes truth and lies so it's harder to detect.

6. Tasks
Almost never follows through on any tasks that I ask her / she agree's to do. Apparently has no time to do them, but has time to go to lunch, shopping the gym, etc. On the other hand, when she asks me to do something for her, I will drop everything to do it. This annoys the hell out of me, makes me feel like she doesn't care about me.

As a result of the above;
I get very frustrated and easily angered nowadays when we seem to relive the same issues / arguments over and over again. I feel that she ignores my / our needs and puts hers hers and those of others ahead of ours. As a result I generally do not like her drinking, going out late without me, the constant white lies. Unfortunately I can start to lecture her (and raise my voice and talk down to her, become sarcastic) about our continually relived mistakes. Does that make me abusive. From the definition that I read earlier I was horrified to find out that I may well be. All I ever wanted to do was help, but I am worried that I may have done more harm than good... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<small>[ August 22, 2004, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: RenaissanceMan ]</small>

Frustration/anger, a lecture, a raised voice, and sarcasm..does this constitute verbal abuse?

First I'll tell you what my wife's counselor said about verbal abuse. He said it is defined by the one on the receiving end. In other words, if my W feels she is being verbally abused, then she is, in fact, being verbally abused. I personally don't buy this one bit.

IMO, if your W is feeling verbally abused, this does not necessarily mean you are being verbally abusive. For me, the test would be something more like "would any rational person in this situation feel they are being subjected to abuse?" If you can answer this question YES, then perhaps you are being verbally abusive.

Now...potential verbal abuse aside...the lecture, sarcasm, etc, is probably not the best way to go about things. I know because I also have employed these techniques in the past with less-than-stellar results! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Let's hope yo and I can both learn how to better communicate so that there is not even a question regarding verbal abuse.

RM...hmmm

You know..I really do not think I have enough info from your post to even have an opinion.

You posted the areas of conflict...not your approach to dealing with the conflict.

How about some examples of what you might say in each circumstance? The abuse lies in the execution..not the issue. Just because she doesn't like what you have to say, doesn't mean you have been abusive. Likewise, just because you have grounds for complaint, doesn't mean that your manner of complaining is acceptable.

Am I making any sense at all...[passing the time while seeing if these contractions go anywhere or peter out...soooo, it makes sense to me..but might be pointless jabberring if I read it another time]--Noodle

Todd1967 - That being the case, did you get any advice (i.e. books to read, websites to visit, etc, to specifically to address this potential abuse problem?).
God knows I have tried to cut the sarcasm and lectures, but my WS drives round the bend and into the same pattern of behaviour by totally ignoring common sense / advice and making us relive the same mistakes.
I often wonder if my wife is not inflicting a form reverse abuse by her doing this to me? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi Noodle, I was posting a reply when I saw your response. Yes, you do make sense. I am concerned that I am inadvertantly crossing the line. Having said that, I think the pattern of behaviour that my WS and I are encouraging of each other has become entrenched. She ignores, and I flood her with my disapproval of the outcomes. So yes, my method of voicing dis-satifaction at her actions (is probbably seen as dissapointment directly in her). Arghhh!!!
I am critical nowadays, not just of her, but of myself. I often pay her compliments, but I guess the things that sticks in her mind is the criticism.

Example 1 - WS to Make an appointment to visit finacial advisor. After 6 months of not doing it..

My response - It's been 6 months that I have been asking you to organise a meeting with a financial advisor. You never had time to organise that but were able to make time and go shopping with your girlfriends for new clothes, go to lunches, and do lots of research on holiday destinations. Her response... Silence or denial

Example 2 - Payment of bills.
WS wanted to get involved in finaciial matters so I asked her to pay some of the bills as they came in.
Again, never paid before due date, and I ended up having to pay them.
My response, why haven't you paid the utilities bill. It's a 2min phone call to the company. You never make an effort for anything that is not of interest to you. You had plenty of time talk to your / mom / girlfriend today, but not to make a 2min phone call. I am very dissapointed..
Sounds terrible huh?

<small>[ August 22, 2004, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: RenaissanceMan ]</small>

Ruh Roh....
[yeah, we watch too much scooby doo]

I did notice some disrespectfull judgements..and that you lay blame for your reactions at your wifes feet. Tsk Tsk Tsk <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ..perhaps you are both locked into a cycle of mutual abuse that you are unable/unwilling to break out of?

Lectures are very condescending..what about the POJA? I am looking at your areas of arguament..and boy howdy..are the two of you at extreme ends of the spectrum with regard to most issues.

Sarcasm..more fun to deal it than to be the recipient of it, wouldn't you say?

You know..I'm still not sure that this makes you abusive..but it probably makes you pretty unattractive to her. You may be winning the arguament but losing the war, so to speak.

Noodle - you are right. I win most every argument (on logic), but I have definitely lost the battle. I added a couple of examples in the previous post, again probbbably not very flattering of myself / the situation. As you can tell this is very frustrating for me as WS and I have been on this merry go round for many years now... I want to get off now please..

<small>[ August 22, 2004, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: RenaissanceMan ]</small>

Yeah, me too..

I also have a bit of skill in debate..heck I kinda enjoy it...but it isn't an appropriate tool to use when negotiating with my husband. I'll win the argument..but at what price? What a shallow victory! I think the key is to remember...no matter how frustrated you are..that treating other people [especially other people you wish to have a life with] respectfully is not optional. They shouldn't have to outgun you in a debate to have their position be declared as valid as your own..unless the situation at hand is a deal breaker. Even then you aren't going to "win".

The best option is always the POJA in situations where partners have incompatibility...put that wit to good use..find loopholes and corners and common goals. Just my .02...your mileage may vary

Yes you are right, win the argument but at what price. The POJA is great so long as both parties stick to it. I will need to try harder if we get through the next phase. Are doing a suedo plan b at the moment. WS gone for the week (no contact) but to be honest, I haven't missed her. I am lonely because I haven't got that network of new friends in place yet, but I haven't actually mssed her. That scares me. Should I be missing her already?

<small>[ August 23, 2004, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: RenaissanceMan ]</small>

RenaissanceMan,

Get the following books :

The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work, by John M. Gottman

The Relationship Cure: A Five-Step Guide to Strengthening Your Marriage, Family, and Friendships, by John M. Gottman

Emotional Blackmail, by Susan Forward

They will help explain a lot of things. They helped me understand what I was doing to my WW.

The following book will help explain why your wife did the things she did and why you reacted the way you did (depression, anxiety...).

Not Just Friends, by Shirely Glass

Good luck,

Just_Friends_NOT

Just_Friends_NOT - Thank you for the recommendation on the books. I had already read the one of the gottman books and will order the other. I have read a few E-excerpts from the other books. Very intersting based the limited chapters that I read.
Verbal / emotional abuse seems a very broad description of a very complex and damaging topic. As "Todd1967" posted, it is very subjective, in that I may not consider being abused based on a conversation, but say the same words to another person and they can view it completely differently. There is certainly a very fine line that I / we walk when it comes to this topic. I am beginning to wonder how even a small percentage of the human race achieves a successful / longterm marriage given there are so many little gotcha's along the way <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Give me the strength to be a better man oh Lord...

<small>[ August 24, 2004, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: RenaissanceMan ]</small>

Dear RM,
You sound so very frustrated and sad. I agree, the issue of verbal abuse is a tough one. The concept, that it is defined by the one receiving it is pretty standard, but it leaves a lot of unanswered questions for the person expressing it. Often those accused of verbal/emotional abuse deny ever intending to do harm. This is perhaps true, BUT the injury is NO LESS REAL to the recipient. It's like pain generally, it is a subjective experience. Remember the last time at the dentists office ? You no doubt expected him to believe you about how much freezing you needed before proceeding with his work, right? That's because he cannot feel the pain, only you can. This is why it is so important to work on the WAY you communicate to each other, to learn about each others sensitivities or Love Busters.
There were some other issues that were not quite clear from this thread.....You mentioned that your wife is a WS ? Is that recent? Have you really dealt with your feelings around this matter? Have either of you had any MC or individual counselling? It might be really helpful if you and your wife completed the questionnaires on Emotional Needs and LB(on this site). They are very helpful. It sounds as though you are both in some form of withdrawl, neither of you really wanting to be close or to really make much of an effort for the other's happiness? There is still a road back, but you will both have to work hard on the marriage if it is to survive.
I have been subjected to pretty severe verbal abuse in my relationships, and I truly believed that I was the only victim. The fact was, I was indeed a victim, but I also created a lot of the problems, by the way I handled myself, and treated the others. Verbal abuse is incredibly damaging, it creates horrible, yet invisible scars, destroys love, destroys self esteem and self confidence etc. WE become uglier by the second as we use it!
Our MC actually suggested that we tape one of our arguments....I thought it was rather a silly idea, but agreed to try. WOW, was it shocking !!
The partner that I am with now, was so harsh and sarcastic (did you know that sarcastic means "tearing of skin" ? Yucky , huh?!) . I was more irritating than anything else. It was quite an awareness for us. It's like being that proverbial "fly on the wall" to yourself! I get into trouble with the disrespect and demands part of communicating generally. The curious thing about this is, my partner sees THAT as verbal abuse !! So you see, it's all in the interpretation. In my first marriage, my ExH was no match for my tongue. I won hands down !! He used other cruel strategies to retaliate. It's always a lose/lose situation. In my current relationship, this whole area again has been a challenge for us both, but we are getting so much better and more skillful in our approach to one another. Dr. Harley's Concepts make it very easy to understand the process.
It is a pretty well misunderstood reality that ALL marriages need hard work. Good ones are good BECAUSE of hard work ! If you want a happier life , you may have to start things off, by changing yourself. As I'm sure you know , we can't change anybody else. Best of good wishes, WA

WA - Thank you for providing your responses. I will try to answer some of the points you requested.

>> There were some other issues that were not quite clear from this thread.....You mentioned that your wife is a WS ? Is that recent? Have you really dealt with your feelings around this matter? Have either of you had any MC or individual counselling?

Wife is a recent WS - some time in the last 3- 4 months (with her girl friends man). I have been trying to deal with this, but WS doesn't like confrontation, so it has been very one sided. We have had MC, but she refuses to go together, so we are at an impasse. She is still contacting OM but denies it is happening.
Sarcasm - I didn't know it meant tearing of the skin. I admit that I can and do resort to sarcasm and criticism during our arguments, but it is usually to get my non reactionary wife to respond / react in some way. I realise that as you pointed out they are very damaging behaviours to relationship and the other partner.
WS has recently admitted that she is contributing to the cycle of destruction that we engage in by not being willing to confront difficult issues, but I guess it's the chicken and egg scenario. That is, she is scared to be confront difficult issues, which makes me use all the above tactics. I have ordered a couple of books, one on abusive relationships and how to break the cycle so I will make a big effort to learn from it. I wish that I had pushed harder to go to marriage counselling when I first felt things were getting to hard for me to handle on my own some 18 - 24 months ago. Shouldn't have taken no for an answer.
I like the idea of taping the argument.
Also, what have you found as the most successful strategies for helping you curb the so called abusive behaviours.. Thanks for your feed back.

RM, I just read a posting (on MB) about Passive / Aggresives. Amazingly I was looking at the behaviour as being my own, but a lot of my WW's non confrontational behaviour is classic Passive Aggresive behaviour as well, which only makes me angrier. I guess my point is that possibly you are both contributing to this destructive behaviour (that's not to say that one of you may have a bit more work to do than the other). Don't beat yourself up, beat the problem by being honest open and seek some help.
Read this link as that someone els on MB posted, it was very illuninating for me. Passive aggressive's

<small>[ August 25, 2004, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: B-trayed ]</small>

Dear RM,
You are most welcome, glad to be there for you !
Thanks for bringing me into the picture more clearly. It sounds as though you are getting close to the mark, your awareness is coming together, and you are making some good choices and a lot of effort. If I may make a few suggestions related to your post.........
Awareness always brings some great "hindsight", right...?... so there is no point beating yourself up about "not having dealt with this sooner...", you are now, and that is the main thing. If your wife is unwilling to go together with you to your marriage counselling, you should go alone. If she is getting individual counselling, that is great. Things may be just too volatile for you to work in a joint session at this time anyway. It isn't a biggie. As you deal with your own stuff and have a better understanding of how to cope with your feelings etc. she will probably be willing. MC is not always strictly with the couple together, sometimes it's about helping one partner or the other with their marital difficulties. Usually the joint sessions do happen, down the road, but not always.
Since this A is so recent you are no doubt very hurt and angry, and that is quite understadable. The fact that she may not be volunteering total honesty with you is a real problem. Perhaps "Plan A" might be helpful. (Plan A can be found amongst Dr.Harley's Concepts)
Plan A is intended to assist the affair to end, to put appropriate pressure on the WS to terminate it fully and completely. It isn't about accepting her behaviour.
As you learn about your own behaviour and the impact it has, you will understand that no amount of verbal bullying or abuse will accomplish anything positive for either of you. Any response that you receive will be either hostile or non engaging. It is also understanable that she may be afraid of confronting you if that is what she can expect. She may also be struggling to confront herself on other painful issues. i.e guilt, ambivilance, hurt, fear etc. When she can rely on your RESPECTFUL demeanor, things will have a chance. NO ONE feels like being vulnerable in the midst of abuse of any kind. You want to run as fast as you can in the other direction.... perhaps right into the arms of the OM ???? So there are many very good reasons to learn HOW to communicate respectfully. That doesn't equate with doormat however! Nothing should have the power to MAKE you behave improperly...regardless of how undiciplined or distant or angry SHE may be, YOU can hold it down to respectful responses on your part. If she is unwilling to learn any new ways of talking/communicating with you and is being distant, unresponsive, you have the right and the obligation to express, in a respectful manner, that you need to deal with the issues.
You can assure her of your respect (non abuse), that you will listen attentively, that you would do it with your MC present if she feels safer that way , or even set another time that is more acceptable to her, but that ignoring the problem is not O.K. You can express how you felt about the affair, how hurt etc. and what your boundaries are if things are going to move forward. i.e that you will not tolerate the A continuing etc.
The most useful thing that we have learnt about curbing abusive behaviour, is to simply REFUSE TO ENGAGE IN IT !! Walk away ! If you are getting "over the top", recognize the warning signs within yourself...explain to your W what is going on for you and tell her that you do not want to hurt her. She will be surprised and not sure to make of this behaviour at first, but in time it will help to create some much needed trust.
You mentioned the chicken and the egg scenario.... well that means that someone has to begin the change, and that someone sounds like it may have to be you. If you folks are in a very difficult place, books and tapes are great, but you probably need professional help. These are very treacherous waters for anyone, it's simply as wise as not trying to be your own doctor or surgeon. Don't waste anymore precious time, get the help you need. Lead the way !
Although nothing and no one will be able to guarantee the outcome, at least you will know that you did your very best and you will very possibly be able to turn things around.
Keep smiling, WA

wow renaissanceman...

get thee in to plan A....

and do huge humungous 180's on your approach...

not one of those is approached very lovingly...
backing your spouse in to a corner...not good...

past of this is your own BS fog...
the macro-inflation of normal marriage issues...

take number one...
the chores...
every single marriage has two people who are rarely if ever completely equal on cleaning...and the easist and most loving response is he or she that feels strongest about it...should shut up and do it...
in fact if you change your perception and can see your chores as a labor of caretaking for the other ...they become less like chores and more like a habit...


2 friends..
lots of disrepectful in judgements there...now now way am I suggesting she associate with people that would condone her affair behavior...but you have to offer her alternatives to those activities...fun light hearted activities...I'd be afraid to go out with you for fear you'd put me down...you gotta change you...if you want to change her....
you gotta replace her bad choices by offering her fun choices...

her drinking may need some deeper reflection on...
question if she does have a problem with alcohol...does she hide because of the amount, the effects and the times she is drinking...or does she hide because of your response...
the more honestly you can look at this...
the more you are dealing with reality..

you gotta get in plan a...and get her attention softly..
you gotta change your approach just enough that she notices and it gets her interest going...

you gotta be nice
you gotta be charming
you gotta be upbeat
you gotta be attractive to her...

you don't gotta be...
but she will run the other way every chance she gets if you don't.........

ark

Ark - Again, thanks for your expert advice. Sorry for the long posting, but as you will notice I am having a bad emotional day and needed to vent.

We are ending plan A (after a 4 month attempt with limited success), and sadly entering plan B with little or no chance of reconciliation.
Yes I can see from your / her point of view how my actions are being seen as LB's. Sadly for me, it has been a take take scenario from WS for the whole 10 years of our relationship (4 of those in marriage). I feel very sad, lonely and used up as a result of the one way traffic.

WS was the kindest most gentle creature I ever met (and much as I hate it, I still love her deeply), so her initial and then continued betrayls have gutted me. Also the fact that she refuses combined MC and stopped IC after 2 visits has made it difficult for me to deal with.

WS is expecting me to just accept her new life and to trust her, but she has made no attempts to rebuild the trust. I cannot live with a foot in each camp, not single and not married, but this is what WS has been attempting to make me do at present. And I refuse to accept her new friends that have been allowing this to happen.. WS is also preventing me from telling OP's wife by emotionally blackmailing me... Please I don't Don't want to go into details of why..

Man I feel low today!!!

<small>[ August 26, 2004, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: RenaissanceMan ]</small>