LINY:

The NBD remark was because I do get goodbye kisses from her usually when I initiate, but I can't remember the last time she did (probably around December or so). Also, we hadn't had any R convo since the attack convo. Just about getting her passport replaced.

ol' 2long intimidating??? ME???? Aw shucks, I'm just a big puddy tat!

-ol' 2long

"Intimidating in a good way, cowboy." (Trying to do my best John Wayne impression.) Sounds more like a young Harry Carey (RIP) and a Christoper Walken crossed, though! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Now, that would be intimidating! HA! (Never could do impressions anyway. (Jimmy Carter and Kermit the Frog is about the extent of it!)

2long, you asked if anyone can relate? My situation would seem very similar. I am 2 1/2 yrs. past D-Day and W continues in pool league with OM. I have said that EA has ended a year ago but really on some level it still exists. I have gone to MC alone, IC and even counselled with SH for about 10 sessions. W very, very reluctantly talked to SH. She resents that I still visit this website and thinks I should just get over it. I posted in GQ this week under the title "On Contact". I won't say I got blasted but it seemed that all of the responses were from BS's telling me enough, that my W is making a fool of me. But like you (I'm guessing you're Catholic) it seems to me that you do everything you can to save the M. It's not about pride but my view of marriage and family. I never feel like I'm the fool but I continually get hurt for trying to do the right thing. Continued contact is unnacceptable. I didn't just read that here but now know it from personal experience. I don't know what you did 13 years ago but I ended a gambling addiction 12 years ago. And I know my W hung in there through very tough times so it helps sustain me now. I guess my point is that everything you're W does would seem geared at keeping RM in her life and nothing you can do or say will change that. But you continually doing the right thing by trying to save your M must make her feel guilty. You are being the lighthouse; period. I would not apologize for going to MC at all. Something else I read here is that time doesn't heal anything, it's what you do with the time. So don't focus on your timeline because both our W's pretend the problems all in our heads. that isn't going to cure us, is it?

walking:

That does sound similar. However, RM lives 2 states away, which helps us considerably. It is true that my W would like 2 hang on2 him as a friend, but even she realizes that he is "moving on" with a new GF and trying 2 raise his 2 boys while sharing custody with his xW. I have 2 not underestimate the value of that myself, and let my W go through her own form of withdrawl in some regards. I certainly can't force her down my path (which I keep inadvertently trying 2 do). Penny has advised I not focus on getting 2 NC for now. It's been advised before, but never at a point where I could just "ignore it" at a sufficient level - it was still 2 "behind my back in spite of me" even just earlier this year.

For me, these days, the hard part is 2 tell her what I'm feeling and what my boundaries are without LBing. Yeah, it's like that the whole time... ...but I find myself more able 2 tell her the things that hurt the most and without LBing, when just a few months ago LBing was all 2 easy.

I'm an atheist, but I still believe in morality (that it's inherent 2 being human), and I very much believe in my marriage. I believe in fighting for my marriage, but only 2 a point - I don't want 2 "force" my W 2 live in a manner that she is fundamentally uncomfortable.

I've considered ICing with Kaiser again, 2. I don't think they're so limited in their thinking or experience that I couldn't work with one of them, in spite of my complaints about them - but I could see myself giving them a run for my money because of my own experience over the past 2.5 years. I'd lay in2 the "neutral about marriage" counselor somethin' fierce, for example: We've been married for 28 years, have 2 kids and 3 houses together, and I'd be expected 2 listen 2 someone who *might* recommend we split if we are on their particular borderline? That'd be amazingly s2pid, in my view, EVEN if we ultimately *should* be apart (ridiculous sounding, even as I type).

I don't think M's should end because of incompatibilities going on at the time, particularly crises like infidelity (they weren't there at the time of the marriage, after all). I *do* think that marriages "could" be ended, if both parties feel that's their particular path forward. I also do think that people could and maybe should DV if they've tried everything they can 2 save their marriage but their partner just won't make the necessary effort. I'm not there yet.

But where does any counselor have any right 2 suggest DV, or even offer advice that might lead the couples 2 think the idea is reasonable? Lots of grayness there. I guess my point is that, given the width of the gray areas, it doesn't "help" at all that a "neutral about M" counselor isn't clear-cut PRO marriage. There's just 2 much at stake, and the counselor has 2 little 2 lose.

-ol' 2long

2long, thanks for your insight. It was very helpful after I felt like I got pretty roughed up on my "On Contact" thread. You said you should be grateful RM is 2 states away and I suppose I should be grateful my OM isn't interested in W. But the ongoing contact is just brutal. All of the rewritten history and criticism necessary to justify an A is also brutal. Seems that's what youre dealing with as well. But you make a very new and refreshing point to me about timing in a marriage. That an A doesn't render the whole M null and void. It is simply a very bad period but does not need to be a death sentence. My W is also worth the effort so I continue to hang in. But what you said about counselors is also right on. I had my first MC say that he was amazed I was still M. My own IC also predicts demise and says I need to "lovingly detach". But they know what I tell them but are certainly not living my life. My day to day is more than acceptable. Your view of a marriage is very refreshing. I am probably one of the most epathetic BS's and I suppose I get a good deal of criticism for that. But everything can't be resolved by drawing a line in the sand. Thanks.

walking:

Ongoing contact, even very infre2uent contact (my W said that she's only contacted him about 3 times since March), and evener "innocent" contact, is extremely painful - it revives all the negative thoughts and mental videos of the past 13 years. I do believe Penny though, that even the current infre2uent contact will end even2ally, and though the waiting is 2uite painful, weighed against just abandoning the M it just isn't as bad (and it certainly doesn't affect as many people). Gadz, though. I'd love it 2 be over 5 minutes from now.

Detaching with love is a very good thing 2 do, whether ultimately you find yourself single or still M'd 2 your W. Being an emotionally healthy individual 2ualifies you better than anything 2 be in a committed relationship. It also helps you 2 not be so affected by what your S does or doesn't do. Have you read David Schnarch's "Passionate Marriage"? It's mostly sex therapy, but the chapters on "differentiation" and "building your crucible" are absolutely excellent.

I like working with Penny in particular because, in addition 2 the benefit of talking over the phone from wherever you are (versus taking the time out 2 drive through traffic 2 an office, do the session, and then drive back), she also has a discussion forum of her own and will communicate via email if needed.

Counselors and coaches only get snippets anyway, regardless of the schedule and setting, and ICs only hear one side of the story (most only WANT 2 hear one side - I've never 2uite figured that one out)... ...and I just figured out why that bothers me so much. My W wants me 2 do IC but not MC because, while she obviously sees benefit in ICing for her, she likes the "privacy" of ICing, versus the openness (with me) of MCing. That, and the MC we had was 2 years ago during the first 6 months after D-day, and we were getting NOWHERE, we were both so stubborn and hurting. I went 2 SH (once) and Penny lately precisely because they will not only do a single session with the spouse of their client (one IC I had talked 2 my W on one occasion), they encourage participation by the spouse.

After all, isn't guiding the couple 2 building their fu2re the ultimate goal here? ...and that reminds me of my other frustration with counseling versus coaching: It isn't the GOAL of most therapists 2 guide the client and help them build the fu2re. It's their goal 2 dig up (and hopefully make sense of) the past. Now, that's probably a fine and dandy way 2 go in most cases. But in cases of infidelity, just how 2uickly is a therapist likely 2 suggest that a WS end contact with the OP, versus focus on other issues. I know that it bugs me 2 no end, not knowing what my W and her IC talk about most of the time, because I KNOW she'd rather not talk about the A (one of the past issues that needs 2 be dug up and made sense of - though that's impossible), and I *imagine* that the IC is more than willing 2 accomodate her by avoiding discussing the A. And so I also imagine that the sessions are unproductive, because the elephant won't go away until it's shot with a really big gun.

But then, I come back 2: "What you resist, persists." And I do see my harping on NC as giving the A power it might no longer have. It's touchy walking that fine line between letting go of the need 2 control the outcome here, and being wary of the A reigniting. I certainly don't want 2 cause it 2 reignite, but I hope I don't have 2 wait forever for NC.

-ol' 2long

2long, I have not read the book but I will get it as even the spicing up sex would be huge benefit. W would actually view that as me doing something positive for our marriage. You have helped me greatly to see the big picture. It's not about evening the score, or forcing the WS to understand our pain but rather saving the marriage if it is worth saving. You views on counseling are correct. What is obvious to me is that W still isn't ready to be in MC with me. She did a little IC and could certainly use some more (rough childhood). I invited her to MB Weekend in Valley Forge next month. Her response struck me as odd. She said "I'm not ready for that yet". Almost as if she knows she's still too foggy. As opposed we don't need MC. The other thing you mention about being careful not to push so hard for NC that you unwittingly give life to the A or simply push them out the door. As you know I have so much love for W and empathy. I only wish to share that with her. My therapist said that we continue to orbit eachother but never connect. That's where we're at; great friends who do everything together but can't kill the elephant. Your approach seems consistent with SH. Simply add weight to the A. Make giving it up more attractive than keeping it alive. I often think how easily I could have slipped into an A. We were simply very, very naive about the pain involved. I really do think I may be better by continually swallowing the pain. I think it shows strength and that is what she needs from me. I think she is in enough pain. Something wierd happened last night where I had a chance to show her I knew OM's tel number by heart. It blew her away that I knew that number. But it shouldn't have surprised her at all as I have fought with her over those calls for 2 1/2 years. The EA has become bigger than the PA ever was. That is something she simply can't comprehend yet. I know I'm all over the place but again I appreciate your calm and loving approach to saving your marriage. I'm married 19 years with 3 children 17,15,11.

I still can't figure out how 2 comply with my W's wishes and "hide" the payments for coaching so she doesn't get "infuriated" by it again.

But we're talking about it some. This morning, I offered 2 cancel coaching, since I couldn't think of how 2 hide the costs (and I'm still baffled as 2 how that would "help" her). She said I shouldn't do that if it helps me.

She talked more about her feelings about marriage. All the old stuff, like in ancient times our lifespans weren't so long, so marriage for life wasn't so unreasonable. I still have a lot of trouble with that one. Meaning, I think it's an absurd argument and I can't think of a respectful way 2 address it, so I don't, mostly. I did say that, when people knew their life expectencies were probably only 45 years, it was probably still pretty much the way it is now. It's just a scale factor that's applied 2 the marriage equation. Committment times 1.8 or something.

We talked about how kids are affected by DV, and she said that it's worse around 5 yrs, then gets "better" around 17. Our son is 17.

I feel like I'm being "reduced in sta2re" in her mind so that I'm on the same level as RM or the singleness option, so that she can make an "equitable" decision about her future. I had 2 come in 2 work this morning, but I ended my input 2 the convo by telling her that, if anything, she's more precious 2 me now than she ever has been.

It's true, 2.

She's distant. I can't ask the question Penny wants me 2 ask about SF. She's nowhere near where she can discuss that kind of relationship now. Or that's how it feels. I'll be watchful, and see if there's a time when I can ask, anyway.

-ol' 2long

2long -

Regarding the arguments from your wife for both the lifespan/divorce issue, and the childrens age/divorce - it's hard to argue with someone who is rationalizing. It is a logical argument in their mind, because they need it to be, in order to rationalize.

What you will leave to your children is a legacy..one that they will carry all their lives, and one that their children will carry.

Age of children has nothing to do with the destruction of the family unit, because that is precisely what it is, destruction. A family is forever, it is a legacy from your wife & you to your children, and so on an so forth for all the generations. Equally as profound is the legacy you will leave with the destruction of the family if that is what happens through divorce, and it will continue as a legacy until "the sins of the father" are mended through future generations.

I was 34 when I lost my parents, however the legacy of their love, their faith in each other and their commitment to our family unit will endure throughout my life and the lives of my daughter and grandchildren.

That is my opinion anyway.

It's a good opinion.

Well said!

-ol' 2long

2long, ol' friend (please note that I used the more comfortable ol" as opposed to the potentially demeaning old, even though we are! Old, that is.

So the struggle endures. I feel for you. I must say your W's views on marriage are beyond perplexing. And regarding divorce, I've read where it is actually tougher on older kids. I know that my youngest (21) is just now able to accept his mom as a parent again, and we never even hinted of divorce. He was just so bitter over her betrayal of the family.

I just wanted to pop in and offer you my continued support, prayers and good thoughts. I wish I had some sage and wisdom-filled advice for you, but you know better than anyone what you need to do. Your courage and tenacity in trying to protect your family continue to inspire so many others here.

Thanks for showing us how to be noble and good, even when you don't feel like it. Take care.

2long, I read a post a while back about a young man who was a newly inducted BS. He said he ran into a coulple in their seventies at a doctors office and asked how they made it so long. The wife replied "we held on really tight during the hard times". Obviously to get to the finish line means you will have had to endure some hard times. How you respond during those times will determine your fate. This is a refreshing post in that it is very, very pro marriage. Take care.

"To talk of bulls is not the same thing as being in the bull ring"

WOE

SiSF:

Cool 2 hear from you!

WOE:

I agree. I sometimes, SOMETIMES wonder if I've done the "right thing" by not going 2 plan B at some point (well before now) 2 give my W the incentive 2 look inward and burn off her own fog. Most of the time, though, I don't regret what I've done and am doing.

I don't think I'm near done yet, either. A lot of this must have 2 do with the lengt of our M (28 1/2 yrs) and the length and "type" of the A (12 yrs, mostly EA, kind of like the movie "same time next year"). So, it's going 2 take longer than most 2 recover from.

I feel good 2day, plus or minus a few upsets over the weekend.

-ol' 2long

2long, first I'm glad I saw the "eruption" story in your sig line before you pulled it. That was fabulous.

You said you guess it depends on the length of the M and the length of the A to determine when you've had enough. But honestly I don't think those time lines mean anything. It depends more on the relationship you have with your W. You said you can still see the woman you married in there somewhere. As long as you don't lose sight of that you will be fine. I don't know if you saw Nikko'spost on GQ but with regard to the effect of divorce on children it is sobering.

I'm happy with the direction of things, it's the pace that kills you. Suppose that's where you're at. Comforting to feel that there is light at the end of the tunnel.

WOE:

I'll check out nikko's thread.

I don't always know whether what I'm doing is right or not. As for absolutes, it's probably not right. As for "where I'm at", it is definitely right for me.

Main thing that continues 2 plague me is whether I'm not "throwing in the towel" because of insecurities of mine, when it might be the sensible thing 2 do. I don't know. I still see enough evidence of "fog" clouding my W's own otherwise sharp thought processes that I know that if it would only clear... ...but I don't want 2 assume I know what's right for her, either.

So, I guess mostly I like 2 think that I hang in there because I can, and because I'm making a stand (better every day) for my M. I'm hoping that it'll matter 2 my W someday. In the meantime, I know it matters 2 me and my kids.

-ol' 2long

2long, I don't worry about the insecurities but that may just be denial. What I sometimes question is that perhaps, just perhaps W treats me so lousy to get me to leave. That maybe she has nothing left. But if that's the case then no matter how committed I am she will eventually wear me down. But where else would we be anyway if we weren't doing this? Probably just get in trouble on our own. There are no absolutes. I still do feel I'm walking on eggs and I believe W feels the same way. It's just so hard to read minds. I wonder is it the guilt that keeps her from connecting, is it the A or is it that she simply has nothing for me. But when I got chumming with a young female soccer coach I think W's reaction conveyed that she still wants me (like a dog you never get tired of kicking).
Anyway it's been nice to finally catch up to you after all this time and your enjoyable posts. You'll go into the Hall of Fame here. Take care.

***BEGIN VENT***

My ship is sinking.

I have 2 figure out how 2 detach with love, stay married but not physical with my W, knowing that while I'm doing that, she's dehumanizing me (or dehusbandizing me) 2 the level of the likes of RM, Kobe Bryant (no f***ing kidding, per news this am about the case being dropped), so that her past behavior doesn't rank as so much emotional baggage, while she SLOWLY deals with her issues of the past THIRTY YEARS (the time we've known each other) with her once-a-month IC and decides what she wants her future 2 be.

I love sex. I love it because it used 2 be good between us. Now, even though it's good, it's been very infrequent over the past 6 months, and now she "doesn't need it anymore".

I feel like I'm supposed 2 happily follow K's example and not have sex with my W for YEARS, while she works through her issues around it (and we DON'T work on our marriage). And lately I haven't felt all that respected for my opinions even in discussions on MB. A lot of that is probably due 2 the frustration that I *can* talk 2 people here and on other forums, but my W doesn't really want 2 hear what I "learn" in the process. She'd be mortified if she knew I've posted thousands of times, and I'd happily tell her if she asked (heck, I just might say "W, I just celebrated my 7000th post! Ain't that grand?" - between 2long, T-zero, and Qfwfq, it's up near that number now, and if you add iloveulove.com, it's more than that).

I have 2 find "clever" ways 2 pay Penny for coaching, in "secret," so that my W won't be insulted by having 2 see how much it costs. Penny responded about that, somewhat like what Pepper said. And they're "right", but what the hell good does that do me? I can't relay that kind of thought 2 my W without LBing. Heck, I can't relay many of my thoughts 2 her without LBing.

My W always says she can't go back 2 the way our M was, but that is PRECISELY what she's requiring that I do.

****!

***END OF VENT***

Other than that, things are going great.
-2long

My ship is sinking.

Is this a torpedo hole, or a slow leak, like you forgot to paint the bottom this year and it's rusting out?

I have a lot of questions, but probably the bottom line is that you had a heck of a communication session and there were some bad feelings communicated.

Since there is a lot missing (and as per Penny, you shouldn't tell it all anyway) I don't think I will comment on most of this, except to say that while I don't know exactly how you are feeling, I wish things were better, and I care. I know that's not much, but I really do, and I wish we could help more.
Shoot, ask half the gals here, everyone knows sex is all men want, why should you and I be any different. Your W is only treating you like the man that you are.

Not that simple, is it. She doesn't sound like she wants to be married very much, but that's what she has said for a long time. I would still like to know what was in that conversation that made you sleep so well a few weeks ago, and how you got from that, to this.

And lately I haven't felt all that respected for my opinions even in discussions on MB.

If you are refering to what people here think of you, I think you have about as much respect as a person can have here. If you are refering to what your W thinks of what you do here, well, she has an opinion too, and she has a right to hers, just like I have a right to mine, and you have a right to yours. You don't have to like it though, and you can be radically honest if you do it in a respectful way. You can even drink more beer if you want to - you are as free as you choose to be.

A lot of that is probably due 2 the frustration that I *can* talk 2 people here and on other forums, but my W doesn't really want 2 hear what I "learn" in the process. She'd be mortified if she knew I've posted thousands of times, and I'd happily tell her if she asked (heck, I just might say "W, I just celebrated my 7000th post! Ain't that grand?" - between 2long, T-zero, and Qfwfq, it's up near that number now, and if you add iloveulove.com, it's more than that).

7,000, and the good you have done probably can't be measured. Not with the tools we have at our disposal anyway.

You have great worth, and you have some faults. Your choices (that I can see) are to stay and work on it, or leave. If you feel that working on it is pointless, and it hasn't been getting you anywhere, you can stay and live with it or leave.

I have 2 find "clever" ways 2 pay Penny for coaching, in "secret," so that my W won't be insulted by having 2 see how much it costs. Penny responded about that, somewhat like what Pepper said. And they're "right", but what the hell good does that do me? I can't relay that kind of thought 2 my W without LBing. Heck, I can't relay many of my thoughts 2 her without LBing.

See your choices above, and I realize there are other things that could be put down as choices, I just don't see you doing something really drastic like involving bear spray or hand cuffs.

I point out that it isn't fair, not at all, but you already know that is the way things happen somtimes.

My W always says she can't go back 2 the way our M was, but that is PRECISELY what she's requiring that I do.

So, did you tell her that, and if not, why?

SS:

"Is this a torpedo hole, or a slow leak, like you forgot to paint the bottom this year and it's rusting out?"

I had a 1972 VW bug years ago that I paid $200 for. I was worth every penny, because it had "grown up" in Massachussetts. I used 2 have 2 lift up on the doors while closing them, so they'd clear the running boards. One day, I sat on my seatbelt, and tried 2 raise myself up on one foot so I could pull it out. My foot went right through the floor. It was like that.

"I have a lot of questions, but probably the bottom line is that you had a heck of a communication session and there were some bad feelings communicated."

It wasn't really much of a communication session. We're back 2 the non-communication motif, which is why it feels so much like "the way our M used 2 be" 2 me.

"Shoot, ask half the gals here, everyone knows sex is all men want, why should you and I be any different. Your W is only treating you like the man that you are."

But she defined me that way when it's so not the whole truth it's ridiculous, and it feels like she despises that created version of me.

I piss on that stereotype. It is NOT me.

"Not that simple, is it."

No.

"I would still like to know what was in that conversation that made you sleep so well a few weeks ago, and how you got from that, to this."

That was the first time we both felt able 2 air our deepest concerns/hurts/desires without LBing. We angered each other, but we admitted how we were feeling afterwards, and even "checked up" on each other for the next 2ple of days. ...then it all went away again. This morning, it 2k me a couple hours 2 fully realize that I had just been compared 2 a man who's an admitted philanderer and an accused rapist. My blood is starting 2 boil again, sorry! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

"If you are refering to what people here think of you, I think you have about as much respect as a person can have here."

Intellec2ally, I do realize that. But because my W is so against my participation here, what does the respect of a bunch of anonymous friends really matter anyway? 2 me, you matter a lot. 2 her, well, I don't know.

"7,000, and the good you have done probably can't be measured. Not with the tools we have at our disposal anyway."

Thanks for that, at least. My W wouldn't care (DJ).

"If you feel that working on it is pointless, and it hasn't been getting you anywhere, you can stay and live with it or leave."

Yep. And I bounce back and forth between "it's worth it 2 make a stand and stay" and "she doesn't care and wants out, why prolong the inevitable?"

"'My W always says she can't go back 2 the way our M was, but that is PRECISELY what she's requiring that I do.'

So, did you tell her that, and if not, why?"

Yes. Many times. Does no good. Or at least it doesn't appear 2 have an effect.

-ol' 2long

I think Pep is right about sometimes just laughing at what she (your W) says.

I would also comment.

" Some of the things you come up with are amazing, where do you get this stuff?"

Then whistle while you walk away.

I get a kick out of some that say things like "they can't offend you without your consent."

Well, it may be true, but we give our consent when we marry, and it's hard to withdraw that consent without a D.

What are your plans for the weekend? We'll be in PV just north of here, you are welcome to come if you can stand the drive. Not much for beer, but the food will be good.

SS

<small>[ September 02, 2004, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>