WW went to a karate event last weekend. Came back drunk at 3:30. She just went to another karate event, got back drunk just before 3. She never did this pre-A.

Today she has been 'beat up' pretty bad. I got some very strong points home to her without LBing in a discussion this morning. She angrily accused me of lying an manipulating my kids 'to get in my head and change me' when I told her that the kids had confided in me their anger and sadness at how Karate had stolen Mommy from them.

Then WW picked up kids from school and said to them " What has Daddy been putting in your heads about karate?" Both kids ( wonderful!) said " No Mommy, WE told DADDY that we are sick of rotton karate always coming first and us and Daddy coming second. We ALWAYS cancel cool stuff for karate and you have NEVER cancelled Karate for us"

WW was so shocked she snapped at 11YO dd and made her cry. I noticed this when they returned home. DD told me in tears " I want to live at school where its not sad and theres no fighting !".

I hugged my kids and asked them what happened. They told me. I told them " you can ALWAYS tell Mommy and Daddy how you truly feel. Even if our reaction is sad or angry sometimes it is the healthiest way. I am sure Mommy is sorry and absolutely NONE of the friction you sense is your fault".

Mommy shouts from the kitchen " No, its all big, bad Mommy's fault ....". I could be reading too much into it but I think she was convicted of the effect her Karate obsession is having on the kids.

Not enough to stop her going to a Karate even tonight AND staying away the weekend at ANOTHER karate event withoit the kids of course.

I can only hope she has a truly miserable time knowing that every hour she is at Karate she is making the kids sadder and sadder.
Then to cap it all her beloved sister gave her a roasting about her selfish and senseless behaviour having the affair on the phone to owhen W called her for some sympathy.

Is she crashing ? Poor baby the whole world is against her now : Sister, friends, now her kids even and OM's near silence are all convicting her of her behaviour.

Only I am not, Plan A'ing, being non-judgmental, radically honest and trying to OFFER the chance of an enthusiastic agreement concerning every meaningful decsision. Being a beacon. Supporting my kids.

O MB wise heads, does this look like a woman crashing/in withdrawal ? Does the STRONG worsening of behaviour indicate this or something else?

Any advice as to how MY behaviour coul dchange to better support her if she IS withdrawing ? Keeping quiet to avoid "gathering foot" seems lame when she is hurting so much. I know only WW can stop her own hurt.

Thanks for any comments and advice, O wise MBers.

<small>[ September 03, 2004, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Could be... How long it will take is another story. It depends somewhat on how stubborn she is. Some people in their own minds, convince themselves that the world is out to get them, when the people that love them all sing the same song.

Bob,

Eventually there comes a time when the "realness" starts to set in. It happens to all of us with one thing or another.

It sucks living with the consequences of our poor decisions but what is worse is when we start to realize that others have to live with them too.

I think maybe your wife is facing this. Kids are so smart and we don't give them half the credit for understanding things as well as we do. I don't think you should stop them from expressing themselves but at the same time I don't know if it is the best to let them LB for you.

I doubt that is your intention even if you do want to give thim high-5's after a comment like that.

Your wife is hurting and feeling a bit lost within herself. Maybe the only place she feels "right" is when she is doing her karate.

just thinking out loud.....

Gog Bless

Doug

Bob,

I think you have planned A your butt off. Now, and your wife sees it and knows it.

I think it may be time for you to draw a line in the sand. If she is attacking your children, AN ADULT defending her actions to her children? lol ... it's time to step up in a more masculine fashion than plan a typically allows us.

I would simply state to her, this is enough. If you have issues with me, bring them to me. If you don't want to be here, please, there is the door. Do not attack the children over them expressing they miss their time with you, as they are coming to you in love, and you are responding to them in anger. I will not tolerate that. I can't control how you try to hurt me, but, you had better believe I will protect these children from the harm you are bringing to this house.

With that, I would start looking towards a plan b. She is still clinging to OM, even though he has apparently said his peace and is trying to make ammends with his girlfriend. Did he really not go to Karate? If he didn't, that is a good sign for you. I expect your wife is terribly angry at him, and thus, lashing out at anyone who loves her. Sometimes, they do just need someone to tell them, it's enough, grow up or move on.

Are you comfortable enough to do that yet?

Bob,

It was my kids who "woke me up" to the reality of my actions. There will be moments when you see a head poke above the fog into the blue skies...then duck back into the fog. This is good! This means she is begining to see the reality of her choices and it's effect on others.

WS's think they have insolated their actions from others. They think no one else is going to be hurt. No one else but them and maybe the BS. The truth...MANY people are destroyed and radically effected by the foggy decisions of the A. This new reality check is good.

You could make fun plans on the weekends your WW is going to Karate tours. That way the kids have fun (you too) and your wife begins to question more and more her decisions. AND, the pressure from the kids is a VERY powerful motivator. Especially for a Mom's heart.

Plan a picnic with a kite and food. Go have fun!


2scared

Thanks all.

I made it very clear that Mom was WAY out of order yesterday. And she sucked up hugely to them right afterwards.

* OM is not at this tournament, no. His GF told me so. He buried his Son on Wednesday AND his GF confronted his adultery with proof on the day before. He has much more on his mind than a karate tournament. yes, this will hurt WW.
* D_rose, yes I think Karate is the place where WW feels least like dirt. It makes me wonder if I should expose to her karate club so they know her 'secret' too. I have not so far because I really need her to choose to give that up, not be 'coerced' to. Maybe I do need to though...it will take away her last place where she has not lost respect though, and while this may be useful from an A-ending perspective, it would devastate my already breaking WW. I am not sure. I must balance practicality with compassion. If I DID expose the karate club she would certainly be less comfortable attending so often BUT she would then quite literally have lost everyone's respect. Not sure if that is useful or not at this point.
* I will not stop my kids from telling it as they see it. How can the honest words of a 7 year old and an 11 YO who love you be a LB ? I am 'high fiving' only my kids bravery and honesty.
* The reason I asked this question is because I wondered if an early plan B may not be appropriate BUT I have not yet been patient with plan A and the affair is smashing like a bottle against a wall. It lives today only in the fading hopes of WW. I think that is being manifested in agressive withdrawing behaviour, but wanted to check with experienced folks on here.

I feel that WW IS crashing - there seems to be no other reason for the worseneing spite and that Plan A and exposure have been very effective so far in helping to stop the affair.

I gravitate towards keeping plan A up for a few weeks before doing anything. If she continues to abandon family for karate for several weeks though I will consider exposing to her club, but I am very reticent to do this. Perhaps a POJA opportunity there.

I cannot find words in my head that do not sound like a threat right now though. She has already told me that it is her final Fog boundary after telling OM GF, and then sending her the proof.

She certainly would stop karate after that but she would also have a destroyed reputation locally and be a source of gossip for ever more amongst her very many Karate acquaintances.
Also she might be forced to leave me, but again she has made no effort at all to do that when I broke her last previous two "taboos".

I am doing fun kid stuff today and tomorrow. But with a heavy heart. This is so very hard. If /when WW wakes up she will be devastated to recall what she has done to our children.

Hey Bob, how about suggesting a fun weekend away for your family & all of you plan it. Does the Karate take up every weekend? Do you think that maybe someone within the Karate group may already suspect an A between your W & OM? I know that several friends asked me about my H & G/F. They could see they were more friendly than usual. Of course H denied anyhing was going on when asked. Your children would get a thrill out of planning a weekend away. Doesn't have to be expensive. Good luck. I have been following your story & keep praying that your W will soon have her "eyes opened". My thoughts are then for you to have to strenght to go forward. It is not an easy road for you to travel. I wish I was as level headed as you in your thinking process sometimes.

WH 52
BS 48 (for 1 more day)
DD 24
DS 22
D-day 10th November 2003
H had several A's over 10 yrs
Working at staying together forever

EO yes Karate takes up vritually every weekend for several months now. It NEED NOT but WW chooses to attend these tournaments instead of any family activity at all. I suggested a family weekend THIS weekend but WW was bitter and went to this tournament anyway. She is like that. Had been for years. Tell her not to touch the wetpaint, and you get fingerprints on your wet paint.

Re the level headedness, all I have is rationality right now. I can only function in MB if I detach myself emotionally from what going on.I am honestly considering this to be an important business challenge, such as a angry customer wanting their money back. Not completely successfull, but most times.

Thanks for your advice !

Bob, my H used to be always too busy on weekends to be with us for so many years. It was very lonely for me, but I spent my time with my children & their activities. DS is very good at cricket, so took up alot of time getting him to games & training etc. DD was also good at sport. H never had much time to give us, but always had time to go fishing or 4WDing etc with his mates. I used to ask him all the time to be with us. He hated that I spent so much time with the kids, but he never helped with transport. We live in a rural area, & public transport is not available. Plus H was always away or working, so I guess I made a life without him. Well, ever since I exposed him with proof, he has spent all his time with me & no one else. He now finds the time.He is working almost 7 days a week, but he now works from home, so I see him all the time. He has made time to take me away for weekends, takes me out to dinner, the movies, bowling. He is just so different now.
I hope that your W will soon change the way my H did & that you don't have the split family life that we did. Take care of you Bob.
WH 52
BS 48 (for 1 more day)
DD 24
DS 22
D day 10th November 2003
H had several A's over 10 yrs
Working at staying together forever

During my H's A our whole family was involved with Ice Hockey. I was the only one that didn't play. My H had an A with a mother of another boy on one of my son's teams. The situation was different in that many people knew before I had proof. Many sided with H and OW as if they were Romeo and Juliet.

After full exposure there was only a handful of people that would take a stand and denounce their behaviour. Most didn't want to get involved and were more comfortable making believe it was normal or okay. The OW went on to divorce her wealthy H. She made out very well in their D because we live in a no-fault state. She got the house, kids, and at least 10K alimony/support per month. That A was on and off for 4 yrs with a few false recoveries. (My H had a second secret cell phone that she provided during 2 different stretches, he kept them hidden in his truck)

After the A ended we basically had to start from scratch with no friends since many of our acquaintences at the time were involved in hockey. I was not comfortable with maintaining any of the 'friendships' or rather fiendships that supported the A. It wasn't the end of the world for either of us or the kids.

In your case, you probably have other friends that were never a part of Karate or complicit with keeping the A a secret. If and when she has to give up Karate it shouldn't be the end of her world. You will find other family activities to replace that as well as trying to spend your 15 hours with each other each week.

If she comes out of the fog and you are able to MB together then she will be happy to just have you and her kids to spend time with.

I just hope she can come to her senses soon and will be able to lose some of that angry pride she is harbouring against you and the world. I am not sure how you can help facilitate that process...pray, pray, and keep praying.

<small>[ September 04, 2004, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: Trix ]</small>

Bob...your wife reminds me so much of me when I was in my affair that its frightening!

Right now she is very very angry. She is angry with herself, she is angry with the OM and she is angry with you for exposing and spoiling her fairy tale.

When she is in karate she is completely cut off from teh outside world. In my case my obsession was internet chat. Of course there is also the possiblity of the OM changing his mind and turning up at karate. She is not ready to let go of her dreams yet. She feels pressure when she is with you and the children (most of it coming from herself and her own conscience...though she's stubborn as mule and would never admit it!!).

I dont think there is any need for you to tell her any more home truths than necessary. In her heart she knows what is right and wrong. Your "rubbing it in" just makes her more angry and more stubborn.Shes realised that the affair is fading fast and she blames it all on you!!! She has moments when she realises the truth but the truth hurts and shifting the blame elsewhere is so much more convenient....Its all part of coming out of the fog. Dont doubt that she is in withdrawal and her behaviour is perfectly "normal" for a WSin this situation.

Just keep in PlanA Bob and let time do the rest. She is obviously a stubborn woman and is not going to come out of teh fog quickly. Tell her know that she is hurting and that you are there for her. She will probably give a cutting reply but she wont forget your kindness and words of support. Your patience amazes me...you really are doing well...just keep going....chin up...we're all cheering you on!

<small>[ September 04, 2004, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Debbra ]</small>

Bob, didn't you tell us that your wife is in the TOP 10 Karate Something or other in the UK?

This sport is as important to her as the people that participate in the olympics...Does she get paid to coach? (Or whatever she does there?)

Could you be a little jealous?

Most of us wives, myself included, have husbands that worked away from home many hours and week-ends...and kids learned to understand without LB ing good ole dad.

Bob, you want us to think you are MR. PURE, MR. PERFECT it seems....You have been on vacation and sure you had time for kids THEN to do fun things.

How about all those business trips you go on and all the hours you worked when the kids were out of school this summer....who was caring for the kids...My guess is that it was MOM...

You have critised her about enough...how the Om's girlfriend is younger and prettier, how wife doesn't care for the kids (she does) I am sure she is cooking and cleaning and doing laundry and picking them up at school and spending a lot of time talking with and caring for the kids.

Be upset with her for the one month affair (which is over) but maybe you should encourage her karete...which she is GOOD at.

I know you will hate this critisism and will let me know....I am just getting tired of all your whining...I know, Iknow, I don't have to read your posts but I am drawn to them, even if they upset me.

And Bob, just how many HOURS away from the family are you typing at the computer? Check the account check on your server...it is probably about as many hours as your wife is away at Karate! (728 posts in about one month...I have been here for about a year and have 364 posts.)

Sincerely, Julie

<small>[ September 04, 2004, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

And I still think it was wrong and insensitve of you to send that phone receipt the day before the OM's son funeral...It could have waited a couple days....You knew it would cause a big fight...

You have taken sides with the girlfriend, for all you know she is a married lady with a child and cheating on her husband with the OM...and you would be an enabler!

You seem to be talking to her a lot on the phone....Maybe stop the girlfriend conversations and talk more with wife!

OK, I am finished with my 2 X 4's.
Julie

Bob, I'm leaning towards what rookkev wrote. I don't think it is time to Plan B, but I think your W has to begin to face what she is doing to your children. Unfortunately you are the only adult in the house now, so you will have to spell out the guidelines of behavior towards your children. I don't care how fogged out she is, she does not have the right to continue to mess up their lives just because she messed up her life.

Concerning exposing to the karate club, I guess that would depend if the A really is over. If you find that she or OM continues contact I might lay it on the line. NC is NC. At some point she will have to decide if she is willing to try and recover your M. She will also at some point have to realize that she is a wife and mother. Making karate her life ain't going to make for a happy family.

Withdrawal starts when there is truly NC. Bob, withdrawal sucks big time. At least it did in my case. But one step at a time. CV

Patience then, friends, thanks. I do not want to do anything hasty when plan A is so fresh and so much has happened so far.

I am loathe to damage what I have supported wo wholeheartedly these 22 years ( WWs karate career) and it has until recently been a healthy part of our family's life and a source of great pride and adventure to us all. Only now has it become an obsession that is damaging our family.

* Blessed Time, your husband's behaviours obviously hurt you very much for you to be so calculatedly bitter. I am sorry that you hurt so, but please do not project his behaviours and motivations onto me. Your barbs don't hurt me because they are so wide of the mark as to be actually funny, if you had not tried so earnestly to hurt me with your cudgel-witted slatings.

Please ignore my posts. They are easy to identify,they have 'bob pure' as tag line on them.

<small>[ September 04, 2004, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion....but...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And Bob, just how many HOURS away from the family are you typing at the computer? Check the account check on your server...it is probably about as many hours as your wife is away at Karate!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a bit much. I don't know where I'd be or my marriage if I did not have this site to come to whenever I needed a dose of comfort and sanity. With all the pain BS's go through it is a relief to have a place where one can share in a safe place.

I don't know about anyone else here....but my participation (I am reading on here daily) does not interfere with my family's needs whatsoever. I really can't imagine it would be anything but good for Bob to post as often as he needs. This is an outlet for us to get support and knowledge, not a full blown commitment or hobby.

Just wanted to give my 10 cents....

Rachel

Something that caught my attention in your post was your WW going to bars, getting drunk and not getting home until 3:00 in the morning. It's my opinion that married women and bars, often called "meat markets" around here are not a good combination. Her behavior could lead to a pattern of one night stand affairs, as described in the SAA book. In her mind, this may be the only way to get back at you for taking away the OM. Is there anyone at these bars that can report back to you on your WW's behavior while drinking?

It sounds like she IS in withdrawal and I agree that she may very well be looking for another OM to fill the void that the 'soul mate' OM left when cutting communication and emotional strokes to her.

Karate is one part of the puzzle. You W IS in withdrawal as I see it (and not by her choice since she didn't break contact)

Plan A and appear attractive to her neediness as best as you can Bob. Do keep tabs on her as best as you can though.

All

I have checked subtly with folks who were also at the events WW stayed late at, and she was with folsk I know all night and shared a taxi with them coming home. I do not think she is having ONS. Also it would be truly aberrant behaviour for her, who apart from 5/6 sessions with OM whom she was utterly, utterly "in love" with at the time, she has never been promiscuous.

This behaviour is quite deliberately and knowingly hurtful to me and she knows this very well. This also is aberrant behaviour and I wondered if this extra level of deliberate spite might indicate she is crashing/Witdrawing.

I just don't know, being new to this. When WW returns tomorrow from her overnight karate event I wil ask her if she realises how hurtful and humiliating her behaviour is to me and the kids, and ask what her purpose is in maximising our pain here. I'll think of a way that doesn't LB.

Bob - I wouldn't bother asking her, because she probably has no idea. She sounds like she is in withdrawal, and whatever answer she gives, won't make any sense at all.