Eric,

You need to read the post that NCW wrote to Robby on boundaries, cuz it applies to you.

You do not know your boundaries. You need to calm down and determine what that will be.

This is not something you cannot confront, either.

Get the kids, go to a movie, check out, and in your mind, DECIDE what your boundaries will be.

Do what NCW said. Leave the bill on the counter, highlight the numbers, leave a note that you would like to talk about this later, and GO.

Then, decide what is acceptable and what is not acceptable anymore, Eric.

You need to define what this will be.

You are I both know that repeat A's are not acceptable. For you, confiding in other men is not acceptable either (and you both POJAed about this). So, you need to decide what the boundary is for either scenario (if it is a full blown A or a breaking of the POJA, not forthright honesty of current conversations, etc).

Either way, this waffling back and forth between blasting her or accepting it is not the answer.

Decide your boundaries. Cool down. And then be ready to calmly discuss what happened. And be prepared to calmly and firmly enforce those boundaries, whether it be leaving this relationship behind, moving on to the next step of recovery (if it the POJA violation) or an apology for something you honestly believe to be innocent.

And as far as people saying she would not be stupid enough to use the cell again...not true. My WH was in about a 2 week recovery, knew I had access to cell records daily via the web, and did not hide that he was calling her or accepting calls from her again on his cell. It was almost like he wanted me to know, so he could be done and be excused to continue his affair.

Ready the boundaries post to Robby. And define some for yourself.

eric,

i have been reading this topic all day. I have not posted because i didn't think i had anything much to add. besides i am a FWW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> and even though so many BSs have been extremely kind to me, i still feel like i am an enemy. this, of course, is my issue, not anyone elses.

but i find myself wanting to pipe in here. you are not an a$$hold. you are trying very hard. i see it and i know you know it too. this does not mean you are perfect, but none of us are.

reading the post about how your lunch went made me cringe. i think the advice to let her know what you found on the bill and how it makes you feel and then to leave is the way to go. please listen to ncwalker!! take his advice. i know you are scared, but no matter what the future holds for you, be the best YOU can be. and the best you can be right now is to act out of love and NOT fear.

that's right, at the hardest time of your life I, a FWW, am asking you to treat your wife out of love. then no matter what happens, and i do pray your marriage will survive, you will have acted honorably.

i don't want to go on and on... just please calm down, don't set your wife up, help her trust you, help her open up to you. that is the way to a succesful marriage. and if you take that path and the worst still happens, at least you don't have to beat yourself up and think you are an [censored]. i personally think, if you take that path, you will find it will be worth it. your love will make a difference.

FL,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i still feel like i am an enemy. this, of course, is my issue, not anyone elses.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you WERE an enemy, you'd be kicking the guy when he was down or confusing him.

Did you?

I'd say you gained a lot of wisdom in a short time the hard way. Foolish maybe. Not an enemy. And don't be so prideful as to think you got the market cornered on foolish, either. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

NCW

thanks ncwalker.

and Eric, GOOD LUCK TONIGHT!!!! may God keep you and your family safe.

Eric,

Everything OK?

I am thinking about you and your situation. God be with you...

i am continueing to keep you and your family in my prayers.

Eric, I haven't chimed in, because you were getting some great advice from the others, and I really couldn't add anything that hadn't been covered. I truly hope you took KY's advice to not set your W up to fail, and you confronted her with the full evidence, but in a non-confrontational way, like NcW explained.

Prayers are with you today that yesterday was maybe just an "off" day, and things are moving in the right direction.

Eric, I wanted to offer some support and advice. I have enjoyed your posts. I suppose the general theme here seems to be not hit your W with a 2 x 4' over this. But I am going in another direction. Stop focusing on whether this is headed towards EA and consider when is the last time you spoke to someone of the opposite sex on the phone for 71 minutes. That ALONE is the crime. If she doesn't understand this point you need to drive it home. Delicately perhaps but consistently. My W susstituted PA with EA and I can tell you it is killing me by the inches. Don't ever underestimate the pain of EA. Gotta run but I'll follow this thread.

Dear Eric!

I do agree with the last post. This is an improper behaviour for a married person. Particularly so since she is already a (F?)WW. She now has more reason then ever to protect your feeling and her own fidelity by keeping and maintaining boundaries. This is a natural part of healthy marriages. Persons who have proved to have a weakness will even more have to stay on the alert. Always.

Eric?

Eric,

How you doing?

we are all thinking of you Eric. Love to you and your family.

It is funny this post made it's way up today. I was thinking about Eric just today...worried that he is OK (and hoping he had posted with an update).

Hello,, All

And thanks for your concerns and blessings,,

Things did not go exactly as planned on confronting my wife.

I took the advice from NCW and only implemented part of it.

I showed wife the phone bill without yelling at her... but I did not leave the house. I couldnt... it was like I had to hear her excuse right away.
Here goes,,,,,,,,,
Wife replied: "That morning I was vacuming the bedroom It felt like none of the air conditioning was coming out of the vent in our room. So I called Anthony to see what it would take to run another duct to our room. As we were discussing this he asked how we were doing, he is someone I did talk to because his wife betrayed him and they recovered so I did occasionally call him for advice. When you were in withdrawl from me Anthony gave me advice on what I could do to get you back,, he was supportive of our Marriage and has never made a pass at me. He worships his marriage and has never made any out of line advance toward me."

Eric replys: "I thought we agreed about this, that it was something you said you would not do."

Autumn replies:" I promise I have been totally dedicated to you since I ended my affair."

Eric: *Kinda angry* "Confiding in a past lover about us is not what I would call dedication!"
"How would his wife feel if she knew she saw these phone records?

Autumn: "She would divorce him probably,,, please do not do that,, I swear he has done nothing but give me advice on how to regain your trust,, if you show her the bill you may break up their recovered marriage, it would devastate him"

Eric: *Angrily* "SO I AM SUPPOSED TO ACCEPT IT?"
If it would cause so much damage then how could it be so innocent?'

Autumn: "His wife is very jealous" I swear there is nothing between me and Anthony" "I will never call him again"

Eric: "You understand I am very protective of our marriage since DDay? You know I look at the cell records, did you not think seeing these calls would upset me?

Autumn:"Exactly what I am trying to explain to you, I never thought of any wrong doing because there was no wrong doing,, you talk to marriage builders when we have set backs,,, you wouldnt talk to me,, I talked to Anthony to ask him how I could help you when you have triggers and flash backs." "I have no desire to be with Anthony"
You can check all of my calls I will never call him again but I need you to talk to me when you get down and not shut me out,, its like you are Happy go lucky one week then withdrawing the next"

Eric:"we have had some amazing times since your affair,, and we have had some terrible times, but we are still making it,,, I never thought we would make it this far but we have,,, by confiding in Anthony about our Marriage you bring out all of those sickening flashbacks and emotions that were starting to get better." It is like a fire you work so hard to extinguish,,, and youve almost got it out,,, but you reach behind you and instead of a bucket of water you grab a gallon of gasoline and throw it on the fire, now you are right back at the beginning trying to calm the blaze"

Autumn: I understand you are jealous,,, I made you that way,, I will not call or consult with any other Man"

That is pretty much how it went,,, friday,, she came to me sunday and said she was cancelling the cell phones because she did not need one and that it only caused us problems.
Ofcorse I think,,, she is cancelling because she does not want to get caught again,,, who knows???
She constantly told me over the weekend that she has been committed to me and wants to totally change our way of living and start over,,,
She wants to move away,,and start over,,, she wants to go back to school,, and wants me to pursue my career in law enforcement. She says she wants a new start and if she has to she will move away from her relatives and give up her beauty shop to save our Marriage."

I am alot more at ease,,,, while I still cautiously feel I may be getting played,, I also feel she may have been telling the truth.

I wonder would her idea of moving be a good thing for our family, part of me thinks it would, and the other part of me feels like we are just running away from our problems.

I do not want to give any of you the impression I was calm during this confrontation,,, I yelled some of my responses,, but refrained from any insults,, as did my Wife.

What do you think,,,, especially all the FWW's out there,, do you feel I got the truth from my wife and what about her idea to cancel the cell phones? Also her idea to move out of state and go back to school?

Eric,

That was too close a call.

IF she is telling the truth, you need a crack to the head. Where was POJA? You are the man, the head of the household. IF she was needing to talk her issues, that is valid. SHE is hurting too. Now Anthony may not be the best choice because of your feelings, appropriate boundaries, etc. But look at it from HER point of view. She sounds ashamed about what she did. Who is she going to talk to and feel safe with? It would have to be someone she feels safe with (aka Anthony BECAUSE of the PRIOR relationship) and someone who understainds (aka Anthony because of what HE has gone through).

Don't get me wrong, she is doing something dangerous. But is she doing it out of MALICE or is she doing it because she doesn't know any better?

And you almost force the "wrongness" down her throat. When your dad FORCED a lesson on you, how did YOU take it? "Up yours, dad," as soon as he left the room, I'll bet.

You have proven my "grid" from my previous post. For if she is lying, what are you gonna do? Stay and work it out, or leave. That's it. ANGER will not affect the outcome either way, except to push HER away. If she is REALLY trying, what is she thinking NOW? Probably "Geez, I try and do something RIGHT and get my chops busted."

Time for you to SUCK IT UP AND APOLOGIZE. Tell her how it made you feel, that it was childish, but you couldn't help it because you love her so much. Tell her you will try and do better.

But that doesn't resolve YOUR problem, does it? It just patches the altercation you just had. What ABOUT your problem?

Simple. Call Anthony and ask him. Ask her if it would be OK to call. You will learn a lot if she starts hedging and hem-hawing.

A: "You can't call him, it would bother him."
E: NICELY "I'm sure he would understand if he has been through this."

A: "But I don't want to risk HIS wife finding out."
E: NICELY "Well, let's call him together. You seem to know how to do it without letting her know, you could help."

Then you flat out tell Anthony you are a little troubled by it.

AND HERE IS THE KEY POINT - If Anthony is a viable resource to help then HE WILL HAVE APPROPRIATE BOUNDARIES!!! GOT IT? If Anthony has appropriate boundaries in place, the ONLY answer he could have to you stating you are troubled by it is "I understand." If he doesn't answer that way, he doesn't have good boundaries. Spells trouble.

Now. Suppose HE IS a good help? What is the solution then? It is NOT letting them continue. Most Christian marriage counsellors work as a husband/wife team for EXACTLY that issue. A good boundary for your relationship is this:

A - She can call him, but you have to be there while she talks to him. May be hard for her, because you are there.

B - Let them meet for lunch, BUT YOU GO TOO. Take the kids, sit at a separate table and tell the kids that mommy is helping a friend.

See? Keep it reasonable. The two of you need to POJA a solution, and remember the "A" is for AGREEMENT, not ARGUMENT. Know how to tell an argument from an agreement? It's all about the "U" - YOU DID THIS or YOU DID THAT.

NCW

NCW,,,

I know I dropped the ball,,, but it was all I could muster.
I did not post all the details ,, just tried to sum it up.

I was mad trying not to be mad but that little voice kept saying "put your foot down Eric be firm, let her know you are not going to be played"

As for talking to Anthony,,,, I am way ahead of you on that,,,, I did call him, he also said there is nothing there,,, he said she never offered to talk to him in person,, just that her uncle told her he and his wife made it after her affair.
"What got me was he said he would never put any man through what his wife and her OM put him through.
He said she started to ask for his advice when he came into the shop to get a haircut,, that was when she told him about our situation. He said as far as an affair the phone records should be enough proof there was no affair..... he said if I could look at the dates she only called when we were having problems.

I think the way I feel is if there was any inappropriate contact,,, I just ended it. I am not going to get a confession and there may be nothing else to confess.

NCW,,, I think you are right about one thing maybe all of this is taking its toll on Autumn.
Maybe thats why she wants to move and start a new career.

This is the only time I have really felt like she was having another affair.

I do not sit around and think of ways to bring her down.

NCW your guidance to me when I was in total withdrwal from Autumn helped me re establish contact with her.

It seems your advice was much easier to follow then,, than it is now.

Get out your sledge hammer,,,, because I know it will take alot of beating on this one.

Eric,

I realize that you are in a very difficult position.
I also can take from the content on this thread that you ARE going to attempt to move past this.

That's OK.....but keep in mind that these actions by your W are Huge (HUGE) flags.
They are not simply things you should "keep an eye" on and see how they play out.

Big Problems here:
She is confiding in yet another Man.
One she claims the wife is SOOO jealous that she will D him if it comes to light. (HMMMMM)
Yet, she still calls him many times, OVER many weeks. What's not adding up here??

If its NOT all right with his wife (hence the secrecy)... how is this guy an appropritate outlet??

Besides haven't we all read enough failed stories where the OP's Spouse (in any situation) is kept out of the loop? If nothings going "on", then no need to sneak and hide from other man's W.
All the cloak and dagger gives the impression that its something, even if it not. (??)


Why should YOU need to sneak around? Sounds pretty much like the "line" given to protect an affair partner. (sound familiar: OPS will divorce them, why hurt someone else, yadda, yadda, Yadda).
Affairs are about secrecy....MBing is about being open and honest.

Does her "story" make sense?
Perhaps, but then don't just about all the lies a WS tells?
(That is were NOT giving them Time to concoct a Better story comes into play).
Better choice is to confront her and NOT give her time to think of the best "story".
(& yes, this can be done without screaming and yelling).

The worst part is that you Did Give her the opportunity to "come clean".
There was NO Set up there.
She had the chance to be honest on her own.........and yet once again SHE CHOSE Not too.
So its very reasonable on your part to wonder, "If she won't be honest about things I do know, what are the chances of her being honest about what I don't"?

So even if for arguments sake your W is not currently cheating....YOU still have major problems here.
She is still being totally secretive (only confessing to what you already know).
Still being AT The Very Least "inappropriate" with other males.
Still Not confiding in you and definitely still being a Liar.

The trust factor is a much larger issue, long term then any sex or contact.
IMO she is currently blowing it....Big Time.

YOU don't need to apologize, at all.
Don't become another Plan A doormat that apologizes every time there is an uncomfortable situation that is initiated by your WS's actions.
In fact, She is the one that needs to be giving you one, not only for her betrayal but also her outright thoughtlessness.
(How many BS have had to hear " I just wasn't thinking about YOU")??

Don't make the mistake of being "guilted" into taking resposibilty for her Choices.

Your guilty of what? Catching her in More secrecy and deception!
You did enough of a service to her and your M by NOT LBing on her.
You controlled what you could: Your actions or reactions.
Unfortunately, that's as far as you can run with that.

Sadly, none of us can control what our spouse does.

I hope you fully realize that at this point in your relationship you no longer have the Luxery of simply giving her the beniefit of the doubt.
I suspect (as most here have) you've been down that road.....and where did it get you?
[That's right: your current thread here]

AT the moment she is still her own worst enemy.
She continues to be dishonest.....yet asks you to Trust her.
Excuse me!!
Doesn't work like that. At least not in the universe I come from.

With that said, Perhaps the idea of a fresh start can do you Both some good.
Maybe the "triggers" of her OLD life are just TOO strong for her to deal with.
Just being there in that environment may be what's helping to "suck" her back into her Old Habits. (You know, drug addicts and alcoholics have to find new friends and new places to go).

In our case, My family and I all sold our house, got new jobs, and moved to another State. NOT for my triggers.....NO, because of my W's triggers. She was the one that couldn't handle all the memories and emotions that came with it. (her A took place 100% at work...for 2 years straight).

If you still want this to work out (and I believe you do)....then give serious consideration to her proposal. It may just be the thing to force you 2 to pull back together as you begin a new journey in a new place with new challenges.. where its the 2 of you against the world.
I seriously doubt your going to be able to handle much more of the "stuff" she is pulling currently.

Here's hoping she gets it together Before YOU reach your limit!

<small>[ September 21, 2004, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: top rope ]</small>

eric-

I like ncw's advice. In fact I think you should reread his last post and let it sink in a bit.

Your W's actions weren't well thought out or advised, but how much truth is in what she said? They were in the same muck and now he is pulling out of it faster. How did he do that? She wants out of the muck too.

It sounds to me that she wants what the OM already has - a marriage in recovery.

T R,,,

Been a while since I heard from you.
I didnt know you had been monitoring my added drama.
You talk about the flags,,,, I do see 20/20 these red flags whether or not she ever admits it or he ever admits it, all the RED FLAGS are there. Is it possible she is telling the truth,, sure... but all the little tale tale signs are there.

I know I can not keep interogating her like the grand inquisitor. I know I cannot keep pressuring her to admit it.

I approached her and she responded just like I thought she would. What else can I do?
Keep a watchful eye??? sure but that is about it.

TOP,,, there is one thing that just does not fit.
The 71 min call was made on the 26th of august...
the other 10 calls were made starting at the beginning of august. I have monitored her cell records for the last 5 months,, there are calls to anthonys cell but only one in the last five months,, and that was right after DDay.
We have spent all of our time together in the Month of August,,, why the 11 calls during this particular month. I have been with her every spare minute we have,,,, she has not come home late,,, she has not gone in early. I can easily say I saw all the time she had for her first affair,, the late nights,,, the forwarding calls to her cell,,, change in sexual behavior,, and so on, but I have not seen anything like this with Anthony.
We have not separated any of our recreational activities,,, there are no mysterious trips to the store. We eat lunch together every day.

I just do not see the tale tale signs of PA.. I think the cell records definately indicate inappropriate action,, but her daily activities have been centered around the family <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Eric,

Top Rope has some good points. He has also been around the block. He and I are differing a bit on our opinions of what is going on, and that's OK. Neither one of us is seeing your wife's body language, hearing her tone, or bouncing off current behavior against established habits. Further, we are only hearing YOUR side of it.

So the honesty part of it must solely be evaluated by you. To run off half-cocked because of anything ANY of us say is a little silly.

But notice one thing that Top Rope and I have both said. And I will paraphrase:

If the talking to Anthony is not a problem, why can't his wife know?

If any female came to me for a personal counseling session (beyond the scope of posting here, I mean call, visit in person) there is NO WAY I would agree without my wife's BLESSING. In fact, I would PREFER it if she were THERE TOO.

See?

Let's give Autumn the benefit of the doubt and assume nothing is going on right now. She is poised for something TO go wrong.

She needs to understand this. She will probably think you are trying to be controlling. But bottom line, this relationship (by this I mean the close, personal conversations) with Anthony would be wrong if BOTH of your marriages were HEALTHY.

It is the secrecy from the spouses that is making it wrong. If it is NOT wrong, why the secrets? Ask her that.

My gosh, if this supposedly jealous woman is so unreasonable, how good will Anthony's advice be? How long before Anthony gets tired of his unreasonable wife and yours is there. Hmmm....

I would ask Anthony and Autumn at the same time WHY Anthony's wife cannot know. If Anthony really wants to help, he will protect HIS OWN marriage by involving his spouse.

Put it to them this way: If this NEEDS to be done, why can't it be done with ONE of the spouses (you or Anthony's) in the vicinity?

If that's too inconvenient then it must not be that important either.

NCW