Okay, the thread about "what lying betrayers say" has really brought out some demons for me. I know my H is a MAJOR conflict avoider, but it still is very hard for me to understand how a man could NOT ask his W any questions when all the handwriting is on the wall. I would come home at sometimes 2 or 3 in the morning, and he never asked where I was. Also, sometimes I'd forget my pager at home, receive a page from OM, and my H would never even ask who it was or whose number it was. And also, my cell phone bill was always very high, (our home phone bill too), and he is the one who paid both bills, never questioning anything. If I'm lying, I'm flying.<P>Now, I always took this attitude as indifference, but he says he always cared, just never thought to ask anything. Does this seem normal to you? Well, I know it's not normal, but do you all think it is possible that he did care, just couldn't bring himself to say anything?<P>I guess I should consider it water under the bridge because now he ALWAYS asks me EVERYTHING ---- ---- but still, it makes me wonder how he could care and not say anything before.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Could it be that he just plain trusted you ?<BR>If om had been a liitle more careful, like not call my w at night when I'm in bed with her and then do it again the next night I don't know how long it would have gone on, till she started going out with him more regularly.<BR>She never did run up cell phone bill and never called his home. She always called him at work while I was in bed.

new woman,<BR> I hear what you're saying.By the time I woke up to what was going on with my W,it was too late.She said things were bothering her.I thought it was her job.She said she needed to get away for a while.I thought she was out with her friends.It was a two-way street,though.My W was a big conflict avoider,so she did'nt open up all the way,just little hints.I was the typical man,thinking she was going through one of her moods.Also,after 22 years of marriage,you have a totally blind trust in your spouse.Now ,I think of all those business trips she took,but she swears nothing happened.I believed her,because I think this one affair put her over the edge,and changed her like never before.Now,in hind sight,I think"How could I have been so stupid?" But I never ever thought that my wife could have an affair.She was so upset when friends of ours were involved in one,I guess I thought she was better than that.Pretty dumb,huh?I truly believe,if I could go back in time,I might of been able to have stopped it,because she was so confused on which way to go.Oh well,"If only".... --Murph

nw,<P>My Wife was staying out late on Fridays with her girlfriend. Yeah, but wankboy too! Id didn’t have a problem with it. A few other little things popped up, but of course my wife would NEVER have an affair. Yeah, I did think about it, but I had absolutely no idea of who it could possibly be, so I blew it off. <P>I think his actions were pretty normal. I would have questioned the phone bills. I think RWD has it right. It comes down to trust. I would have trusted her with my life, so why not to have a bit of time on her own?

Thanks you guys for responding. I'd like to get some more feedback on this, and I'll give you some more info.<P>The issue of his blind trust could be the case, but lest not forget, he had an affair too. So, wouldn't that make him at least a little more suspicious? I mean, obviously he knew anything was possible. He was hiding his own phone bills, so why wouldn't he question mine?? The very first slip-up he had, I was on him immediately! Because, I knew, anything was possible because of what I was doing. It was still hard to believe, but in no way was I going to have that kind of denial.<P>But, I get a sick feeling when I think that he was going to continue to turn his head and look the other way. If I hadn't confessed and ended my affair on my own, who knows where we'd be now? I know this is negative thinking, but that thread on "what lying betrayers say" really bothers me. I never had to lie. He never asked anything.<P>One night I was out with OM right before Christmas and H was trying to get a hold of me. He finally paged me, and it was well after 2am in the morning. I called him back on my cell phone and told him I was out Christmas shopping at WalMart. He told me to make sure I picked up extra boxes!!!!!! Out shopping at Walmart at 2am? Sure, it's open 24hours, but come on! I've NEVER gone out in the middle of the night to shop.<P>Anyway, I got a million of crazy stuff like that. I'm getting angry as I write this, so I'll stop. I guess I'm just jealous that my H never seemed to care where I was or what I did or who I was with. I dropped so many hints that now, in retrospect, I almost think I wanted to get caught. As they say, negative attention is better than no attention at all. The sad part is, it took him having an affair and getting caught for me to get the attention I needed. If he hadn't, I'm very sad to say that I think things would still be the way they used to be. I don't think my having an affair wouldn't have been enough to change things so drastically.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

He didn't question it perhaps because he was merely making notes for his own sake if he were involved in an affair too.<BR>If he asked questions, perhaps he thought you'd ask questions too.<BR>Why rock the boat?<BR>You play? I play? Right?

NW I have to agree with Murphy, he trusted your judgement completely even the big bills. If he asked you, would have lied and he would believe you. <P>In my case I am not a conflict avoider, but all the strange goings on were completely plausible and I wanted to believe. Some of us men are just plain stupid until we wake up. I even believed my wife after discovery when she said the OM would not be in Paris when she went on the school trip with my daughter. His name on the luggage tag when she came back was a big clue though.

But then why didn't all the rest of you (or me) have this blind trust? All the questions you've asked your spouses and all the lies they told to cover it up clearly shows me that you questioned what was going on. My H questioned nothing. HollyM, I think the scenario you paint is probably closer to the truth, except my H had never asked me questions about anything, this dating way back before he had his short affair. You guys talk about computer stuff? I'd have emails from OM in my saved file that you didn't even have to log on to retrieve, and yet H never even looked!! <P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

I did question my H about the phone bills, why he kept disappearing for hours at a time, etc. Interestingly, after he left he still accused me of being oblivious. Every time I asked him about anything suspicious, he accused me of arguing with him, and convinced himself that we were arguing all the time. Is it possible that he thought you would think his questioning constituted argument, and desparately wanted to avoid that conflict? Sometimes I find it hard to believe how far my H would go to avoid conflict.

okay, I guess everyone says I am too nice, to o wonderful , too patient and as I look back , like Chris, I do wonder if confrontation and aggressiveness would have stopped her or pushed her away. After her "5 hr talking date night" two days later she told me of her feelings. I told her I understood she could feel that way, but I 'recommended' she stay away from him, but did not demand or strongly request. A week later, on advice from a friend (?) I told her I loved her, trusted her, and would give her space to figure things out. I would not question her whereabouts or times. Boy, that was a mistake. DR. Harley has stated that once the affair starts these actions are typical. I should have Plan A'd her right away, instead I withdrew to give her space... By that time she had really fallen into the fantasy, it only took 3 weeks from date night and that was mostly phone calls, because she could not see him that often without me really pushing her. I would accept the weekend shopping outing and the once a week errands after work thing but more than that she knew I would push her on it. In summary and hindsight, I wish I would have questioned more and prohibited more, because I am in the separation, affair, major withdrawal phase anyway.

duplicate<p>[This message has been edited by izzy (edited September 18, 1999).]

new woman - <P>Let me throw out another thought. Perhaps your H was in denial. I know that I get that way...even now. I still believe (probably foolishly) that the statistics are on my side and that my W will wake up befor the divorce is final. Maybe its a coping mechanism with me, I don't know.<P>Maybe at the time, your H thought the possibility of you getting into an affair was so remote that he was able to successfuly convince himself of alternative explanations for these events.

NW,<P>Weren't your affairs concurrent? If he was involved at the same time you were, maybe he wasn't in his own right mind at the same time? Maybe I have the timeframe wrong, but perhaps you were both leading separate lives at that point, and the thought of this (like it most certainly would not be now) didn't actually phase him in his mindset? If he was in his own affair at this point, wouldn't it be kind of a different scenario?<p>[This message has been edited by Madelyn (edited September 18, 1999).]

new woman - we can make ourselves believe anything if we try hard enough. I suspected my husband, but wanted so badly to believe that there was nothing going on that I even ignored pretty much irrefutable physical evidence! And, the more I suspected, the less I asked - because I didn't WANT it to be true - so, I did the ostrich thing - stuck my head in the sand and thought it wouldn't happen...<P>terri

Thanks for all the replies guys.<P>Madelyn,<P>No, our affairs weren't concurrent exactly. He'd had his the year before mine, but I never found out about it until I was deep into my own. His had been long over, almost a year, by the time I found out and mine was going strong. He was still in deception mode though, still trying to cover tracks and desperately hoping I'd never piece things together.<P>However, as I said, my H had never asked me any questions, throughout our marriage, so I cannot say this was unique. I really believe it all comes down to conflict avoidance to the tenth power. He just couldn't bring himself to ask me anything. He says that he blocked everything out, which is really spells denial.<P>I know in my heart that he cared. I can tell now, when he looks at me, that his heart aches for all the times he didn't ask what was going on. But at the time it was happening, the conflict avoidance, denial, and inability to communicate got in the way. It's just hard sometimes reading what you all write, and how hard you all tried to find out what your spouses were doing and how they felt. I didn't have that, and it makes me sad and it makes me wonder how different things would have been if my H could have done that.<P>But, that's Monday morning quarterbacking, and I really shouldn't occupy time worrying about that. It's done. I guess I did want to point out that even though the pain is so deep now, and you may not see any silver lining, one day you will be able to look back on all this (and your spouses too) knowing that you did try to find out what was going on. And that knowledge will probably make some sort of difference.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

NW,<P>Interesting, in that my H did the same. But he did question, and he did do some of the same things others have done (me included), but there was always a stopping point, that was short of discovery.<P>That's what he's said to me. He didn't want to believe it. He didn't think it happened, and it was complete denial. It's a form of self preservation, I think. Because we don't want to actually realize the hurt that we suspect in some way. I think your H probably felt the same way. But you two are back now together (no secrets, open and honest about your feelings!), and that's what matters. <p>[This message has been edited by Madelyn (edited September 19, 1999).]

Hi New Woman, <P>I'll throw out my perspective on this. <P>I neglected my wife so much that I couldn't recall the last time we had a meaningful conversation. Everything about being marriage was non-existent; no talking, no touching, no...you know. I'm sure I was completely oblivious to any clues. An affair by my wife never crossed my mind - that kind of thing happened to other people not me. <P>Once I heard "I don't love you anymore" come out of my wife's mouth I thought that an affair was a real possibility. I finally did find clues (when I started looking for them), but I still didn't confront at that time for one reason. My wife hated me and was looking for a reason to go. Once I realized that I was not going to wake up out of this nightmare, I sought to win her back first.<P>After many months of struggling to simply be friends again, I finally confronted and thank God is was out in the open. <P>My point is that perhaps "an affair" was the farthest thing from your H's mind. Maybe he too thought that sort of stuff only happens to other people. After all, my wife took our vow as seriously as I did - right? I'm sure he trusted you and never thought it was possible. Why confront if you aren't certain beyond a shadow of a doubt? We don't want to be thought as too possive, or snooping, or controlling, or jealous. There is a very big down side when we confront and are wrong. I'm probably just grasping at straws here. <P>I'll give you the flip side to the story at least for me. Why didn't my wife tell me she was interested in another man before it got serious? Maybe we are all a little bit of a conflict avoider. It does appear from what you write that you wanted to be caught. Hoping he would jump in a take a stand. It's a real hard question to answer.<P>SHA<p>[This message has been edited by Sir Hurts Alot (edited September 20, 1999).]

Well I learned my lesson about Blind Trust being a Fools Trust. I never dreamed in a 1000 years that my wife of 25+ years would cheat on me. Not on me!!. Well she got seduced by scum on the internet who wanted only to get in her pants.....period. Yeah I trusted her completly. After all we had traveled the world together in the Navy for the last 17 years and shared all the good and bad that comes with that lifestyle and raised 2 kids in the process. After all we had been through TOGETHER the thought never crossed my mind that she would sleep with other men. BUT SHE PROVED ME WRONG and did and they were srangers. Men she slept with the first time she met them in real life. She met them to sleep with them. Like some slut at a bar who goes off and screws some guy on a one night stand. So now guess what, I get to live the rest of my life never quite closing my eyes completly to what she is doing. If I am not with her, I have doubts yet on who she is with and what she is doing. She took the pure sweet innocence and trust we had shared for so long and drowned it in other man goo. So who wins here? The scum who 'used' her for her body that's who. And one was a man of God, a 'Reverend' who had no problems reconciling in his sick perverted mind his sleeping with my wife and his being a man of God. These scum get to warm themselves with hot memories of rolling around naked with her in the cheap motel rooms. And me, I get to mourn for the next 25 years. I hope all the betrayers everywhere suffer terribly everytime they look into the sad eyes of the people they betrayed and see the hurt they made. You betrayers are fools if you ever think your betrayed spouses will ever forget what you did to them. Forgive you, maybe but forget.........not a chance!

new woman - I think I'm sort of like your H in this regard and I do care a lot about my W, so it doesn't sound to me like his behavior has to be an indication of him not caring. Re the Wal-Mart story, I would probably have said something similar and you know what? My W being the way she is would have managed to bring home some stuff from Wal-Mart just to prove to me that that's where she really was at 2AM! (In fact, she's done things like this.) As everyone here who's followed my story knows, it takes a LOT to get me to confront her. It's partly because when I voiced my suspicions early on that she was having an affair, she just deny it and turn the whole thing around on me for my lack of trust. So I've waited until I have (as I do now) more solid proof to really go at this issue with her.<P>And I have to say that, as an affairee, she's very good at what she does, that is, covering her tracks and staying in "deception mode." I don't think she phones the OM from the house at all but always uses a pay phone with her calling card (this is what's recommended, I understand). And she and the OM have a very clever MO that minimizes the chance that they'll be seen together. They don't communicate by email either (I've hacked her account) and she hasn't left any conclusive paper around (though I have found some suggestive stuff).<P>I guess I've been hoping that she'd get tired of all the sneaking around, realize that her affair is really what's wrecking our marriage and just give it up the way you did and confess to it. But that doesn't seem to be happening. She gets the domestic support (emotional and financial) she needs from me, and the sexual excitement she needs from the OM and somehow this arrangement seems to work as far as she's concerned. She doesn't want to give up either side. So she stays married to me and continues her affair with him.<P>--Wex

SHA,<P>Thanks for your response. If my H hadn't also had an affair, I could see him thinking what you have described. But since he'd cheated already, it kind of blows the thinking "After all, my wife took our vow as seriously as I did - right?" That is precisely why I still find it odd that he didn't think anything could happen. He knew it could because he was doing it too! That conflict avoidance is a really powerful thing. It had such a hold on H that he was going to continue to look the other way if I hadn't found out what he was doing and forced all of our demons out. I thank God I figured it all out before something even worse happened.<P>Never Again,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You betrayers are fools if you ever think your betrayed spouses will ever forget what you did to them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You're right. Anyone is a fool if he or she thinks anyone will forget being hurt. I don't want my H to ever forget what can happen when we don't communicate, don't open up and be honest with each other, neglect each other, and don't make our marriage and each other our top priority. No, we must never, ever forget what can happen because then history is doomed to repeat itself.<P>But, yes, forgiveness is the key. We must both forgive each other for wrongs of the past if we are to move forward. It's the only way. So, I guess we could say that the betrayed and betrayers are fools if we don't forgive. How's that?<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.