D Day was Jan 03 when engaged GF of 11 years whom I had 2 young children with, a home etc... left for a friend's brother. All of the classic things occurred on both sides. I panicked, became depressed,angry, begged, cried, did a fair to OK Plan A, failed Plan B a few times with an OK one etc... She responded first with "we are just friends" (her & OM), continued lies, acted confused by Plan A, did not like Plan B and would try to get me to break it, all of the usual stuff and fog talk. The same rollercoaster I see so many new people on this site going through now.
I finally threw in the towel Jan 04, told her good luck with her life and I no longer wanted to be part of it. Found out in Feb 04 that OM had given her what she call a a "promise ring" (She is 38 and OM 50) that OM called an engagement ring and all that have seen it say it is a large diamond engagement type ring. I was really hurt but said nothing and countinued to move away from all of it. Little to no contact with her (my choice) although she would occasionally attempt it.
By June of 04 I am feeling much better emotionally and begin to see a woman that has become a wonderful relationship.
A bit after this becomes known my Ex begins calling, telling me that it hurts her but knew that this time would eventually come, upset that my kids spend time with GF and her similar aged kids, going places together, saying things like "I guess we are really over for sure now" and telling me she needs closure. I thought that she had it.
She said how nice and beautiful she hears my GF is (true) She also said how she wanted us to be able to sit down, drink wine and share our lives with each other, do things with the kids together etc... I also should note that she asks the kids what I am up to.
I told her that the ring thing was the breaking point for me and that I wanted nothing to do with her. She said that she didn't blame me and tried to minimize it's (ring) meaning. She cried and told me that she would need counseling to get over this. I was angry and reminded her of the pain I endured and the attempts that I made to reconcile our relationship. She commented that she wanted to know the "place that I was in and how I would receive her."
All summer long she would attempt bits of contact off an on. She even became angry and said, "You have your happy little family now and I'll have whatever I end up with." She also said that maybe she hasn't given OM a real chance and that she should move forward with the relationship now since I am moving forward with my life. Didn't she already do that? The contacts would ususally start as something regarding the kids and would lead into all of this.
She told me that I may be missing out on the best friendship I have ever known (her and I) and life is too short to not have anything to do with her. How bad she feels, that she is guilt ridden, how sorry she is, regretful, how she wishes she could have trusted me (to not let her down emotionally) to try again with me in the past and on and on and on. She would try to play on my emotions with regard to our long history together, the kids etc...
I maintained my stance that enough is enough, that all of her lies and betrayal was too much at this point and I do not want a friendship or anything else with her. I told her that I still careed for her and didn't want anything bad to happen with her but that there is no place in my life for her anymore.
She has now become angry with me when she gets me on the phone, back to blaming me for her leaving in the first place and now making a point of telling me how happy she is with OM and that I should put things in perspective, it has been long enough and I should just get over it. She also asked me when I was going to forgive her.
The arrangements with our children leave very little need for contact and when I need to contact her, short of an emergency, I leave a phone message when I think she is not home or write her a letter.
I guess I looking for a few opinions. Is she still just trying to have the best of both worlds, trying to ease her guilt and feel better about what she has done? Was she checking to see if the door was still open for her without directly asking? She said that she was not looking for that but some of her reactions I'm not sure of. And, am I wrong to not want anything to do with her? Should I just forgive and forget and put things in perspective as she says? I still feel some pain at times but I am in such a better place now and the kids have coped and adapted.

<small>[ October 02, 2004, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: now what ]</small>

By June of 04 I am feeling much better emotionally and begin to see a woman that has become a wonderful relationship.
A bit after this becomes known my Ex begins calling, telling me that it hurts

I guess (sarcasm) you look better from your backside than you do from your front, coz only when she sees you walking away from her is she interested! ~LOL~

She cried and told me that she would need counseling to get over this.

crocodile tears... "waa-waa"

"You have your happy little family now and I'll have whatever I end up with."

well, yeah.... and, your point????


She told me that I may be missing out on the best friendship I have ever known (her and I) and life is too short to not have anything to do with her.

Bwahaaaaaaa!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Can you say "bruised ego"?


I maintained my stance that enough is enough, that all of her lies and betrayal was too much at this point and I do not want a friendship or anything else with her.

Seems clear and straight-forward to me.


She has now become angry with me when she gets me on the phone, back to blaming me for her leaving in the first place and now making a point of telling me how happy she is with OM and that I should put things in perspective, it has been long enough and I should just get over it.

Yes, indeed (sarcasm again) you should do everything her way, coz she is an expert at healthy relationships!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

She also asked me when I was going to forgive her.

What was your response? Besides, why should you forgive her, since it was YOUR FAULT she left?? (sarcasm once more) Why aren't you begging her forgiveness?

I guess I looking for a few opinions. Is she still just trying to have the best of both worlds,

yes

trying to ease her guilt

what guilt?

and feel better about what she has done?

I'd say, trying to pass blame...

Was she checking to see if the door was still open for her without directly asking?

I think she is jealous.

And, am I wrong to not want anything to do with her?

Only wrong if it is not true... do you see in her a woman you would choose to volunteer to be with?

Should I just forgive and forget and put things in perspective as she says?

Forgive her if she accepts responsibility and shows true remorse.... until then, what is the point?

I still feel some pain at times but I am in such a better place now and the kids have coped and adapted.

I am sure the kids are "OK" but this is a terrible thing for the kids to live divided lives....

If you don't feel your X is a "safe place" for you emotionally, then by all means, keep her at a safe distance.

She really knows exactly where all your buttons are, doesn't she?

Pep

Please tell me you got divorced FIRST before entering into a relationship with the other woman(gf).You called your WW an EX but I didn't read any divorce announcement.

O

Octobergirl,

They were in a long-term relationship, not married....

I can't add anything more to what Pep said. Point by point we're in agreement.

Do what is right for you and for the kids.

~ Snow

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Octobergirl:
<strong> Please tell me you got divorced FIRST before entering into a relationship with the other woman(gf).You called your WW an EX but I didn't read any divorce announcement.

O </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The way I understand it (from his first line) they never married, were engaged, have 2 kids.... went together 11 years...... hence, no divorce.

Pep

Octobergirl,

We were in a long term relationship and engaged. No marriage so no divorce.

Pep,

Another long time name that I remember. As far as forgiveness goes, I told her that may come when the actions that brought the need for forgiveness change. I like your point that if everything is my fault then she doesn't need forgiveness. I think that she is truly hurting about the consequences of what she has done but has no intentions of changing anything.
When I said that the children have coped and adapted I meant as best they can for the situation. It is a terrible thing for them and in fact my youngest (4 yrs) daughter was crying last night for her mother when we went to sleep. She use to tell me how she wants us all back together. Tears my heart out and makes me resent Ex even more. I do not feel the same about her anymore in the sense that I still care but have no respect for her.
I just really want nothing to do with her under these circumstances (while she is with OM) however the better part of me tells me I am wrong in feeling that way. She tells me I am being selfish, mean and trying to intentionally hurt her. I am not trying to do anything but move on and I don't want her around.

I just really want nothing to do with her under these circumstances (while she is with OM) however the better part of me tells me I am wrong in feeling that way. She tells me I am being selfish, mean and trying to intentionally hurt her. I am not trying to do anything but move on and I don't want her around.

I think I understand what her point is ... she wants the opportunity to interact with you on a friendlier basis than currently possible.

And, as I understand you, that friendlier relationship poses a risk you are unwilling to take .... the risk of caring about what happends to / with her.

You may want to ask her something.... ask her to describe what she would like the "friendship" between you to look like. "When you offer your friendship, I am curious what that friendship might look / feel like. What exactly do you have in mind?"

I think you might say to her that any relationship between you needs very clear boundaries.

something like....

NO questions/opinions about each other's current social lives... {what the hell is it her business who you date?}

NO discussion about the past relationship {Where did we go wrong?" "When will you forgive me?" "Our break up was your fault." etc}

NO physiccal expressions of affection...{other than shaking hands}

NO gifts given to each other.

NO venting / unleashing / emotional outbursts to each other {"My life sucks, and yours doesn't! That's not fair."}

In other words.... you behave like respectful next-door neighbors who do not stick their noses into each other's business. I seems to me, your Ex is trying to stick her nose into your business, where it does not belong.

What do you think?

Pep

Pep,

Yes, you are right. She at minimum wants friendly interaction. She also wants the family relationship with me without the personal relationship between her and I. She basically wants the best of both worlds, the comfort of family with the benefits of the OM. She wants everything without suffering any loss of what she needs or wants.
My GF and I recently planned a disney vacation to Florida with our children and Ex freaked. She said that I should have asked her to go with our daughters as a family and fretted that another woman was going to see our children meet Mickey Mouse for the first time. I told her that we are no longer a family and therefore those family moments are lost. I told her that it just doesn't go both ways. She was really angry and for a while said that our kids would not be going.
I have asked her specifically what she wants in a friendship with me many times because she has been striving for it since she left 20 months ago. Sometimes her answers have been that we should just live life and go with whatever happens. Other times she has said a "Close, loving relationship" and wants to be able to drink wine and "Share our lives with each other." and other times it is strictly about the kids.
I do not know what she really wants because I am not so sure that she does. I do not want any of that because as you say, it is not emotionally safe for me. I have far too much resentment and bitterness and I think that she is messed up.

^

Ok...I am curious about a couple of things and they are not meant to be confrontational...honestly!

Why is the reason that you never married? Why do you use the word engaged? If you have been "engaged" for 11 years...and have had 2 kids...the marriage is NEVER going to take place. (JMHO) What would be the reason now?

Did she know that you were engaged? Were there promises of marriage with no date ever forthcoming? Was that a need that she had...that you wouldn't and couldn't fulfill? Or was she the one who did not want to get married?

Did you love her enough to make an honest woman out of her?

Ok...some of those might sound confrontational and I apologize...I just don't know how to ask any other way.

committed

Committed,

Yes, I am a little offended but I understand your point and one would never learn anything without someone having a challenging question or view point.
We were not engaged for 11 years. We were together, pre-engagement for 9 years and engaged for two. Yes, she knew that we were engaged however a specific date was not set because of financial reasons. She had always wanted a traditional, full reception and I wanted to be able to give that too her. There was no financial support available from parents on either side or other means. We began to have problems after awhile and I think that her desire to be married to me diminished. I would like to point out that this time of diminished interest corresponds to the time OM became involved.
As far as a timeline for marriage, is there one? Yes, the time that we were together was lengthy however that does not indicate that it was NEVER going to happen. I can understand how you would feel that way. I loved her, was committed to her, did not want anyone else and was monogamous.
Now she is with a man who rushes into marriage, (he has wanted to marry her since the moment she left) and seems to want to marry everyone that he falls in love with. He has been involved in several affairs. He has been divorced twice and both of his divorces are for infidelity on his part. He has broken up two of his own families (his marriages w/children,step children) plus others because he always involves himself with vulnerable women having relationship problems, ours being the last.
I guess I am venting because no, I guess I did not marry her in a timely fashion, but there was no one else other then her. Yes, OM does marry these partners with all of the ceremonial vows of committment involved and makes them honest women, however destroys and violates all of it in the long run. Or has several times before. I guess it is your interpretation on what is "right"
I have acknowledged all of my mistakes to her and tried so hard for so long to make a difference, to learn from this and reconcile our relationship to no avail. It really troubles me that someone with a character like OM can for lack of a better term "win" and she would let him keep our family torn apart. Her basic reply to that is that "he hasn't done those terrible things to me"

We were not engaged for 11 years. We were together, pre-engagement for 9 years and engaged for two.

This may have felt like GF was "auditioning" for the role of the wife, and she never quite met the standards to obtain the level of "wife-worthy" in your eyes.


Yes, she knew that we were engaged however a specific date was not set because of financial reasons.

This is 11 years we're talking about.

She had always wanted a traditional, full reception and I wanted to be able to give that too her.

Get married in Vegas.... save for the reception later... ESPECIALLY when there are children involved.

There was no financial support available from parents on either side or other means.

That means, you could not afford something fancy, it does not mean you could not get legally married.

We began to have problems after awhile and I think that her desire to be married to me diminished.

??? Let me fill you in ... she began to realize she was the "cow giving the milk away for free" and that reality made her feel devalued as a spouse.

I would like to point out that this time of diminished interest corresponds to the time OM became involved.

She hoped to find someone who would not want her to audition for years and years before he deemed her worthy enough to be his wife.

You did set some of this affair vulnerability up with your indecision.... see if you can recognize this.


As far as a timeline for marriage, is there one? Yes, the time that we were together was lengthy however that does not indicate that it was NEVER going to happen.

Sure looked that way to your GF!!!

I can understand how you would feel that way. I loved her, was committed to her, did not want anyone else and was monogamous.

But why was she not married after 2 kids?


Now she is with a man who rushes into marriage, (he has wanted to marry her since the moment she left) and seems to want to marry everyone that he falls in love with.

Can you see how her prolonged auditioning for you made such a man attractive? He wanted her right away! This was the attraction, he was not indecisive about what he wanted from her. He wanted marriage.

He has been involved in several affairs. He has been divorced twice and both of his divorces are for infidelity on his part. He has broken up two of his own families (his marriages w/children,step children) plus others because he always involves himself with vulnerable women having relationship problems, ours being the last.

And yet, she found solice in his willingness to commit. Interesting....


I guess I am venting because no, I guess I did not marry her in a timely fashion, but there was no one else other then her.

And she was denied the wife status irregardless of the 11 years and 2 kids.

Yes, OM does marry these partners with all of the ceremonial vows of committment involved and makes them honest women, however destroys and violates all of it in the long run. Or has several times before. I guess it is your interpretation on what is "right"

Noooo it is your GF's interpretation of being "wanted".


I have acknowledged all of my mistakes to her and tried so hard for so long to make a difference, to learn from this and reconcile our relationship to no avail.

I guess, she does not want another 11 years of relationship without a formal marriage.

It really troubles me that someone with a character like OM can for lack of a better term "win" and she would let him keep our family torn apart. Her basic reply to that is that "he hasn't done those terrible things to me"

She feels used. Trust me, this is the right word. Used by you as a wife but not good enough to actually be the wife.

This is a learning opportunity for you...

You made a huge mistakes. I think you are being defensive where you might be better served with a reflective humility on the wrongness of your permitting the relationship to remain un-cemented for so long, hence, it crumbled apart.

If you have a daughter, would you want her to be in an 11 year, 2 kid relationship without being married? Trust me, this is not what little girls dream of when they play house at 5 years old.

Pep

now what,

Thank you for taking the time to answer those questions. I know that they were hard and could have appeared judgmental. Thank you for your grace in not blasting me for asking.

The reason that I asked is because she might have wanted marriage all this time and when it didn't appear to be forthcoming she bailed. Now, that's not to say that it was RIGHT.

Sometimes people spend more time and effort on the "wedding" than they do on the "marriage". It should never be that way.

If you cannot afford an upscale wedding...so what? Just make sure that you have a wonderful marriage.


As far as a timeline for marriage, is there one? Yes, the time that we were together was lengthy however that does not indicate that it was NEVER going to happen. I can understand how you would feel that way.

It would appear TO ME that it was never going to happen...and that might be how it appeared to her. Did you ever ask her if that is how she felt? It seems that this OM is offering marriage right off the bat to her...it must be something that she has needed and wanted. It was a need that you didn't meet (even if you said you weren't meeting it FOR her).

I just think it is something to look into if you are needing some type of ending.

JMHO
committed

Pep,

I understand that I made mistakes, some huge, and have previously acknowledged them to her and others. I didn't get into the details in this round of posts because the focus did start out as this.

When this all happened and I lost her I spent a lot of time soul searching, sought counseling for my part in contributing to this, did learn from it and wanted to repair all of the issues with her. I did make headway with her (Plan A) but she would not accept the changes as lasting or real. She also would not stop seeing OM which over time brought Plan A to an end because I could not deal with it anymore. She also told me that OM would remind her of why she left. Yes I resent OM because of HIS contribution to this and that he gets the benefit of the doubt and that I do not. Yes she experienced these issues with me and not his issues with him. However he is 50 years old and has lived his entire life this way. Has he changed now? Is it really going to be different with her now?

Committed,

You are welcome. They are legitimate questions about issues that I faced awhile ago and I guess again now. I understand why you would ask. It does bring some pain back to the surface again.

NW

now what

The ladies [Pepperband and committedandlovingit] gave you an excellent woman's POV and you'd be foolish if you don't appreciate it's wisdom.

Despite the fact that today's women are much more financially independent from men than mothers and grandmothers ever were, very seldom will a woman ask a man to marry her. Women still expect their men to propose marriage as a sign of love and devotion to them.

Please consider avoiding sexual intimacy with your new GF. The last thing you want is to again bring new children before you get married. Make children the product of marriage not make the marriage a product of children.

When this all happened and I lost her I spent a lot of time soul searching, sought counseling for my part in contributing to this, did learn from it and wanted to repair all of the issues with her. I did make headway with her (Plan A) but she would not accept the changes as lasting or real.

So, in the midst of this Plan A did you ask her to marry you? Did you say, "screw the upscale wedding and reception...I want you to be my wife in EVERY sense of the word and I want to make you my wife TODAY?". Did you say something along those lines in the Plan A...or were you still telling her that you would get married "one day" when you could afford it?

I am going to be honest with you...using the word "engaged" is simply an attempt to try and legitimize the living together arrangement that you had that produced children.

Why do people get married? People get married because they love each other and want to share in what comes AFTER marriage...living together...sharing finances...having children. You had that without the benefit of marriage...so why get married? That's why I said it was NEVER going to happen. I think that she realized that also. I think she WANTED marriage and it wasn't happening and since she wasn't tied (married) to you, she cut out. Plain and Simple.

JMHO
commited

TMCM,

I understand what is being communicated to me.


Committed,

Yes I did ask.

now what

I apologize if my post came out sounding condescending. You already know all of this but it is still worth reminding you of it in order for you not to make the same mistakes in the future. That's all.

As for your XGF is concerned, consider just agreeing with her. Agreeing doesn't mean that you will do what she wants. I know it sounds wacky but remember that every time you tell her to leave you alone she does the opposite, so why not try the opposite?

TMCM,

Thanks for your input. Do you rememeber me and my story from the past? It has probably been a year or sso ince I last posted. I just kind of gave up and faded away.
You used to post to me frequently and as I recall summed up ex's actions at that time as cake eating and trying to prevent me from emotionally moving on. Always manipulating my feelings and of course me letting her. Wanting to spend time together etc...but for me not to think it means anything etc... She would and still does try to keep the string attached.
I have basically decided to try to remain clam with her next time she calls (and actually gets me on the phone) about anything and politely cut the call off.

now what

You may also want to consider not LB your XGF, not because she doesn't deserve it but because it will help you from getting back in the comfortable habit of doing it with someone else, mainly your present GF.