Just lookin for some insight.

WH answered following questions like this-

Did you love OP? - I thought I did at the time. There was just something about her.

Would you contact her again? - No, there can be no contact.

Would you resume relationship if we split up ?-
I never thought about it.

How do you feel about her now? - I don't think about it unless you bring it up. I don't hate her.


He does state that A was wrong but I believe that he truly fell in love. He states that he ended A because it was the right thing to do. He also states that you have to follow your head, not your heart. This is all 14 monthes past D-Day.

I guess my question is if the WS truly falls in love with the A partner and the marriage was basically dead at the onset of the A (both WH and I will agree on this)- Can you really find your way back. Won't we just be fighting a losing battle?? Won't The WS will always long for what could have been.

I guess I am just confused and insecure.
Thanks for any help.

I agree with him about following your head, not your feelings.

I think that the whole 'falling in love' bit is a myth...

We can feel attracted to someone or develop an attachment to them, but love is not something that takes us over , or we succumb to, like a virus.

Attachments , attraction, are transitory..they are feelings. Maybe powerful ones, depending on our unmet needs, but they are not love. Feelings can be very misleading, and they can change like the weather.

These affairs are all about self gratification, but it wears off, because only God can fill our need for acceptance and security, unfailing love.

It cannot measure up to the bond that God makes between a husband and wife.

Jesus said that God makes us one , in spirit and in flesh.

Love is intentional. It requires sacrifice and commitment.It is hard work. Like the kind of love we are all learning here- to care for someone , to demonstrate patience and kindness toward them in the face of rejection and hatred.

I think he is being honest.

I think he was disallusioned, as they all are eventually, and that he realises now that it was an illusion- that ow could not give him what he was looking for. She was there to take from him.

By its nature, an ungodly relationship is doomed to fail It is all about two people feeding off each other, when neither of them have anything to give.

The one thing that we are forced to do here, if we are to plan A, is to give without expectation of return. For that we have to be receiving from the Source of love- from God.

We are really learning to love, and that kind of love is irresistable.

Love builds us up, and brings out the best in us, and makes us whole. It heals us.

Affairs, drain us, and use us up, and hurt us. At first it looks like love- a kind of giving to get something back- but it doesn't take long before there is nothing coming back to us, and we are both empty.

Only God can fill us with love, and we miss out if we are not in obedience to him.


(Sorry, I didn't mean to go rambling on like this, just thinking out loud.)

God is on the side of your marriage. Its not dead until God says so, and He says that he has joined us for life.

What you call "truly falling in love" I do not consider to be love - though it is a PART of a healthy relatoinship between a husband and wife.

My marriage was on life support and comatose 6 months before my wife's A started. DDay three and a half years later, when she confessed, it was all but dead - I had literally been wishing she would die off and on for some time.

We read Harley's books, did the homework, and within 10 days, at our first visit to an MC, he said "You guys are headed in the right direction." Within months, my family noticed a change in how our children were behaving (for the better), and our marriage was better than it had ever been, though that may be faint praise. It continues to improve.

To get on that path, click on the link in my signature line. True recovery is difficult, but possible.

blind-sided,

First we have to define "true love," but I think it's pretty much agreed on this board that it is merely fleeting feelings that cause fog (and some might agree that definition is accurate even when both people are single!).

Married people usually begin their R with strong FEELINGS, but find out that loving each other is often going to be about ACTIONS, when the feelings wane.

Having said that, I want to take a crack at answering your questions:

"if the WS truly falls in love with the A partner and the marriage was basically dead at the onset of the A (both WH and I will agree on this)- Can you really find your way back." Yes.

"Won't we just be fighting a losing battle??" No.

"Won't The WS will always long for what could have been." Not necessarily.

Feelings fade. By your H's answers to your other questions, it sounds like he is working on your M and sincere about coming out of the fog. Rejoice!

It's true that we have to follow our heads sometimes and not our hearts. But I've learned from almost 29 years of M, and 2 years of recovering from my A, that if we change our thoughts, our hearts can follow.

It seems like your H understands the process of changing his thoughts (about OW). It's understandable that you feel confused and insecure, but I hope you can feel some comfort in the fact that he is making an effort to work on the M with you. It isn't going to be easy, but it IS possible to love each other again. Hang in there!

God bless,

Rose

<small>[ October 11, 2004, 10:54 PM: Message edited by: Rose55 ]</small>

Shul,

I love your post. I think this statement is particularly insightful:

"By its nature, an ungodly relationship is doomed to fail."

My pastor said something similar to me right after d-day. It made sense then, and it makes sense now!

Rose

Blind-sided,

The following is extractions from the book “The Road Less Traveled” written by M. Scott Peck. This book helped me understand the differences between real love, romantic love and feelings of love. I haven’t copy everything – the article is too long - but if you want to read the full article you can find it on this thread.

LOVE DEFINED:

Love is too large, too deep ever to be truly understood or measured or limited within the framework of words. In an effort to explain it, therefore, love has been divided into various categories: eros, philia, agape; perfect love and imperfect love, and so on.

I am presuming to give a single definition of love, again with the awareness that is likely to be in some way or ways inadequate. I define love thus: The will to extend one’s self for the purpose of nurturing one’s own or another’s spiritual growth.

When we love someone our love becomes demonstrable or real only through our exertion – through the fact that for that someone (or for oneself) we take an extra step or walk an extra mile. Love is not effortless. To the contrary, love is effortful.

By use of the word ‘will’ I have attempted to transcend the distinction between desire and action. Desire is not necessarily translated into action. Will is desire of sufficient intensity that it is translated into action. I therefore conclude that the desire to love is not itself love.

Love is as love does. Will also implies choice. We do not have to love. We choose to love. No matter how much we may think we are loving, if we are in fact not loving, it is because we have chosen not to love and therefore do not love despite our good intentions. On the other hand, whenever we do actually exert ourselves in the cause of spiritual growth, it is because we have chosen to do so. The choice to love has been made.

FALLING IN ‘LOVE’:

Of all the misconceptions about love the most powerful and pervasive is the belief that ‘falling in love’ is love or at least one of the manifestations of love. It is a potent misconception, because falling in love is subjectively experienced in a very powerful fashion as an experience of love. When a person falls in love what he or she certainly feels is ‘I love him/her’. But two problems are immediately apparent.

The first is that the experience of falling in love is specifically a sex-linked erotic experience. We do not fall in love with our children even though we may love them very deeply. We do not fall in love with our friends of the same sex – unless we are homosexually oriented – even though we may care for them greatly. We fall in love only when we are consciously or unconsciously sexually motivated.

The second problem is that the experience of falling in love is invariably temporary. No matter whom we fall in love with, we sooner or later fall out of love if the relationship continues long enough. This is not to say that we invariably cease loving the person with whom we fell in love. But it is to say that the feeling of ecstatic lovingness that characterizes the experience of falling in love always passes. The honeymoon always ends. The bloom of the romance always fades.

By my use of the word ‘real’ I am implying that the perception that we are loving when we fall in love is a false perception – that our subjective sense of lovingness is an illusion. By stating that it is when a couple falls out of love they may begin to really love I am also implying that real love does not have its roots in a feeling of love.

To the contrary, real love often occurs in a context in which the feeling of love is lacking, when we act lovingly despite the fact that we don’t feel loving. Assuming the reality of the definition of love with which we started, the experience of ‘falling’ in love is not real love for the several reasons that follow:

Falling in love is not an act of will. It is not a conscious choice. Not matter how open to or eager for it we may be, the experience may still elude us. Contrarily, the experience may capture us at times when we are definitely not seeking it, when it is inconvenient and undesirable. We are as likely to fall in love with someone with whom we are obviously ill matched as with someone more suitable. Indeed, we may not even like or admire the object of our passion, yet, try as we might, we may not be able to fall in love with a person whom we deeply respect and with whom a deep relationship would be in all ways desirable.

This is not to say that the experience of falling in love is immune to discipline. Psychiatrists, for instance, frequently fall in love with their patients, just as their patients fall in love with them, yet out of duty to the patient and their role they are usually able to abort the collapse of their ego boundaries and give up the person as a romantic object. The struggle and suffering of the discipline involved may be enormous. But discipline and will can only control the experience; they cannot create it. We can choose how to respond to the experience of falling of love, but we cannot choose the experience itself.

Having proclaimed that the experience of ‘falling in love’ is a sort of illusion which in no way constitutes real love, let me conclude by shifting into reverse and pointing out that falling in love is in fact very, very close to real love. Indeed, the misconception that falling in love is a type of love is so potent precisely because it contains a grain of truth.

LOVE IS NOT A FEELING:

I have said that love is an action, an activity. This leads to the final major misconception of love which needs to be addressed. Love is not a feeling. Many, many people possessing a feeling of love and even acting in response to that feeling act in all manner of unloved and destructive ways. On the other hand, a genuinely loving individual will often take loving and constructive action toward a person he or she consciously dislikes, actually feeling no love toward the person at the time and perhaps even finding the person repugnant in some way.


Genuine love, on the other hand, implies commitment and the exercise of wisdom. When we are concerned for someone’s spiritual growth, we know that a lack of commitment is likely to be harmful and that commitment to that person is probably necessary for us to manifest our concern effectively.

As has been mentioned, couples sooner or later always fall out of love, and it is at the moment when the mating instinct has run its course that the opportunity for genuine love begins. It is when the spouses no longer feel like being in each other’s company always, when they would rather be elsewhere some of the time, that their love begins to be tested and will be found to be present or absent.

The key word in the distinction is ‘will’. I have defined love as the will to extend oneself for the purpose of nurturing one’s own or another’s spiritual growth. Genuine love is volitional rather than emotional. The person who truly love does so because of a decision to love. This person has made a commitment to be loving whether or not the loving feeling is present. If it is, so much the better; but if it isn’t, the commitment to love, the will to love, still stands and is still exercised.

Conversely, it is not only possible but necessary for a loving person to avoid acting on feelings of love. I may meet a woman who strongly attracts me, whom I feel like loving, but because it would be destructive to my marriage to have an affair at that time, I will say vocally or in the silence of my heart, ‘I feel like loving you, but I am not going to’. My feelings of love may be unbounded, but my capacity to be loving is limited. I therefore must choose the person on whom to focus my capacity to love, toward whom to direct my will to love. True love is not a feeling by which we are overwhelmed. It is a committed, thoughtful decision.

The common tendency to confuse love with feelings of love allows people all manner of self-deception. It is clear that there may be a self-serving quality in this tendency to confuse love with the feeling of love; it is easy and not at all unpleasant to find evidence of love in one’s feelings. It may be difficult and painful to search for evidence of love in one’s actions. But because true love is an act of will that often transcends ephemeral feelings of love, it is correct to say, ‘Love is as love does’.

Therefore, although the feelings of love a WS often develop for an OP can be very real & strong, the feelings itself can’t ever be defined or classified as real/true love - NEVER! A WS who truly loves , will make the choice to act in the best interest of all parties involved, in spite of the inappropriate feelings he/she may have for the OP. Feelings is irrelevant and can be misleading...however, what IS important is our actions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ October 12, 2004, 03:38 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

blind-sided

I believe that at the beginning it's simply "infatuation" then the "hormones" begin to roll.

It has helped me alot to understand what my xWS felt during his affair for OW when I read what happens with the hormones and that "love hormones" are produced at the beginning of relationships. The "involved" feel that it is love but they don't "know it" because it takes much longer to really "know" it is love.

Due to the fact that the body produces all kinds of hormones and they are released when the affairees are together makes the situation seem like love because it "feels so good" and because it "feels" so good it becomes "addictive".

These hormones are released in situations when you feel good and
And if you get to understand that during this process the "involved participants" will not allow any third person into their relationship. They will not see things "logically" and they will only have "eyes for one another" because they don't "see reality".

They "believe" that these feelings happen because of "The other Person" but this is not True. (well not always) It happens because of the "Feelings and Emotional Fullfillment".

This process does not "last forever" but the affairees seem to believe it will and therefore "they believe they are exceptions".

Only they are not aware that when they "wake up" from all of this, the reality that then "sets in" is disasterous.

They will then realize that "honesty" will never be the "true root" of their relationship. Relationships that are "meant to be" are always based on "HONESTY".

Honesty is "always" the fundament of a relationship and when this is missing there will always be "cracks".

Even if affairees do end up getting married, I believe that "deep within themselves" they don't feel "safe & Prowd" about the fact that their relationship was based on infidelity. This will never be a point that they will be prowd to talk about and share to others "with their heads up high".

Knowing all of this lets me understand that it isn't "important" whether my husband "truly fell in love with OW or not" because he simply didn't "know her". He might of felt that way but if it really would of been "true" he wouldn't be here with me............or??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

In my situation, I'd even say that it could of been any old OW. My husband was craving for attention and affection. We were going through a hard time in our relationship at that time and both my husband and I weren't doing all that great of a job "being a team we should of been.

So it's very easy for "anyone OW" to come along and make somebody "feel good and loved" in situations like this.

hope this helps a little <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
bb

Blind sided!!! Welcome to the board. You have so much to learn! I am nearly 2 yrs from d-day and I don't think I joined MB's till around the 15 month mark much like you.

OK, I think what the WS feels for OP feels much like love. It's a bit like dating all over again, without the freedom to do it. They have to block out a lot of reality to be where they are, but the attraction is quite strong. Even when the situation is totally inappropriate, the feelings are powerful. e.g. my H was involved with a girl half his age, with .05% of his status in life, who didn't speak much English, who talked about money all the time and who he didn't know anything about - yet he hung around with her for three months trying to enjoy the attention she had unexpectedly betowed on him. He forgot about how old he was and what a good life he had and revelled in the attraction he felt for this very young woman, the same age as his daughter. Was it love? He doesn't think so but it was similar to the process we go thru when we are free to engage in romantic love. It was how he would have acted when he was 18 and attracted to a member of the opposite sex.

Affairs are the desire to be with this OP because they make you feel good. It's not a lot more complicated that that. They have something about them that you are attracted to and their attention makes you act all stupid and irrationally - much like love does.

At the same time, your brain is being drenched in powerful chemicals - endorphines (and as someone else pointed out, hormones are stirred up big time). It's the equivelent of a morphine/marijuana/testosterone cocktail. These feel good chemicals are natures aid to keeping the planet well populated. The feel good factor is basically the chemical rush you get from the A. But it's pretty much the same feeling you get when you are single and fall for someone.

Feelings of "romantic love" and "lust" are experienced. But at this stage there is no attachment. But there is addiction to the feel good chemicals. Later, after some time has elaspsed, attachment takes over from romantic love - if it doesn't, the relationship collapses, because romantic love doesn't last more than about 18 months. Attachement is also in response to bodily chemicals/hormones that are secreted during activities like cuddling and orgasm (even kissing a womans nipples will give a man attachment hormones that are also passed on to babies during breast feeding to help mother and baby attach to each other). This is to help a relationship get past the short term, long enough for child raising.

Anyway, an A interfers with the attachment one has with their S obviously. But the good news is that a lot of what is experienced in an A is often short lived. Guilt, shame and the stress discovery and the fear that the M might be lost can put enormous stress on the feelings they have for the OP. There are probably a lot of things your H didn't address about his OW because the time spent with her was limited and not burdened with the realities of life like bills to pay and children to discipline. A's are living fantasies and the affairees usually present a false picture about themselves to the OP - and when reality sets in, the attraction is deminished..

It's quite likely that at some level your H realised his OW was not what he wanted or needed. I think some S wake up to this and want to get back to where they were before their brains were muddled with chemicals and before they stepped over the line to please the OP.

You will feel insecure for quite a long time I'm sorry to say. But you are here with a bunch of other BSs who feel insecure too. In many ways our WSs were weak and got caught up in folly that started out simple enough but turned into something much more complicated and undesirable than first appreciated. What ever love or attachement WSs develope for the OP it goes after a few months to a year. The ball is back in your court with your H wanting to have his old life back I suspect.

You are in a very painful process and you are here amongst people who know how you feel.

blind-sided

You have great replies here, listen to them.

My H is still concrete that he was "in love" with OW even though our recovery is going awesome!!

When asked why he was in love with her he replies "I don't know, it's just her. Emotionally we think alike and were able to talk for hours" He then goes on to admit that that's the only thing they had in common. That's why he knew from the beginning it would never work between them. They had WAY too much not in common.

All other likes/dislikes were opposites. Recreational activities, food, etc.. Whereas he shares the same likes/dislikes with me. Him and I have a lot in common.

Although my H doesn't see it this way (yet) I believe this. H was "in love" with the thrill, the fantasy, the fake ego boost he was receiving. He was "in love" with the way the OW made the pain of a bad marriage go away temporarily. H was "in love" with the fact that a tall, beautiful woman wanted him. (Yes, I will admit she was beautiful and at 5'10", very tall). But I AM NO DOG I will also admit. Just short at 5'3".

I guess my question is if the WS truly falls in love with the A partner and the marriage was basically dead at the onset of the A (both WH and I will agree on this)- Can you really find your way back. Won't we just be fighting a losing battle?? Won't The WS will always long for what could have been.

Yes, yes, yes. You can find your way back. We did and I believe it was all up to me. I read every Dr. H book and the 5 love languages. I changed. My H won't read anything. He is SOOOOOOO loving to me.

Will the WS long for what could have been? Well, maybe. But over time of you showing him everyday the joy of being with YOU, the OP will become fuzzier in their foggy heads.

When I first got married, I still thought about an ex that I was very attached to in my head. I thought of the could have beens. But in my head I was creating an ex that wasn't true. I removed all his flaws. I haven't thought of the could have beens with him for years now because my H has shown me love for so long he took his place in my head.

:::: Emotionally we think alike and were able to talk for hours" He then goes on to admit that that's the only thing they had in common.

They were both emotionally immature - they sure had that in common. Plus they had deceiving and cheating in common. So guess they had a fair bit to talk about. It always astounds me how people hate being lied to - and feel particularly ticked off if they are lied to during the course of business or social events. Yet those same people can accommodate OP's lying in the context of their illicet sexual relationship with a married person.

anyname,

you are making good points.

I don't get it either, how people that "Hate" being lied to become the "best liers" themselves. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Sad but true.

In our situation the affair was a lie from beginning on.
OW had found out many things about my husband , she knew what he liked and disliked. OW knew what his hobbies are and where and when he attended them.

So OW "knew" before the affair even started, what to talk about. OW even "knew" that my husband loves milk and red-wine. (not mixed together <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )Just one example.

Therefore when she mentioned these kinda things to him, he was "startled" and he thought "they were meant to be" because they had so much in common." She made the "info" that she had, appear like a coincidence.

OW once told my husband that she hates cats. (again she knew that my husband doesn't like cats at all)
but on the other hand, OW had 13 cats of her own........ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (gosh and he believed what OW told him)

So, see what the "hormones" do with people involved in a affair???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Isn't this proof enough that there is "NO REALITY" involved???? I think so.

I mean in our situation, OW did have 13 cats and no one can "think them away" because they were there. So I really don't know how long it would of took until my husband would of questioned her about "hating" cats.

My husband feels like a real "goof" now when he thinks back.............and he's more than aware that it wasn't "true love" because he didn't even know OW.

hugs
bb

My FWW felt and behaved that she was deeply in love with OM up to the edge of giving up me and our life together life for him. She was certainly more smitten than he was.

She told me in fog that he was teh second great love of her life etc etc.

However she never left me and said a lot " I don't know what I want".

In the past week where my FWW has been largely fogless she has said to me " I love you, I think I always have but I allowed myself to be sidetracked". Not sure what this means , but it certainly means something as FWW is careful with her words.

She does not, for example, sprinkle ILYs into conversation. She only tells me that when she feels it, which has been twice since d-day. According to Harley and Carder, she will swing in and out of 'romantic love' with me as she withdraws and recovers so I can live with it for now.
So she was smitten in love with OM, but is getting over him now. If we DO recover I'll be able to offer proof that recovery after 'loving OP' is possible !

All blessings

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess my question is if the WS truly falls in love with the A partner and the marriage was basically dead at the onset of the A (both WH and I will agree on this)- Can you really find your way back. Won't we just be fighting a losing battle?? Won't The WS will always long for what could have been.

I guess I am just confused and insecure. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">blind-sided - Welcome to MB. I am very glad that you found this place in your "hour of need."

Can you really find your way back.

Yes you can. I can personally attest to that following my wife's 6 year "in-love" affair.
She planned on divorcing me and marrying the OM. We are now about 2.5 years into recovery and are essentially "recovered" and "in-love" with each other.

It is not an "easy" road back, but if you are both willing to learn and to DO the hard work, regardless of how you might be "feeling," you CAN and WILL have a stronger, more loving marriage in the end. But you will both have to commit to the "long haul." Recovery takes, on average, 2 years. So don't fall into the trap of looking for "quick fixes."

If you do not have them yet, let me highly recommend that you begin the recovery process and the healing with two excellent books to help you both. Torn Asunder by Dave Carder and Surviving An Affair by Dr. Willard Harley (the founder of this site).

God bless.

Would you recommend sending that Love Defined article to a WS to read?

My WS truly fell in love with OP and will always be vulnerable to her if there is any contact. Whether they could make a marriage work is another story, and my H is following his head to not try.

The issue now is whether he is to create habits that would allow him to fall back in love with me. That's what Harley's program is all about.

When he was falling in love with me, we would go on walks around Lake of the Isles. When he was falling in love with her, he would walk with her at lunchtime at Staring Lake. Similar experiences, different women.

Harley says that people fall in love when emotional needs are met. OP met his emotional needs and so he fell in love. You probably can, too, and probably did at one point because he married you.

My basic view of love was what is given in these Rod Stewart lyrics: "You’re in my heart, you’re in my soul. You’ll be my breath should I grow old. You are my lover, you’re my best friend, you’re in my soul.”

I've come to learn that that's how love feels but actually love is very fragile. Harley's program will help you follow habits that result in the feeling of love.

Cherished

well there's not much more i can say that hasn't aready been said. this is a great thread w/lots of info. just another POV is to liken the "in love feeling" w/talking a lie detector test (polygraph). if you believe something strong enough it could be read as "truth" on the test. hence, the reason why they are inconclusive and not admissable in court. i believe w/out a shadow of a doubt that the WS truly loves the OP at the time of the A and that they believe this w/all their heart.

On the flip side, I think someday they will understand the reality/truth of those feelings and that it was really a "romantic/infatuation" love. however, the lessons that these WS learn may not come until years later, maybe not even until they have children of their own and see them go through a similar devastation or it happens to them such as the OP whom they married having another A (more likely), or even the WS having another A of their own.

so bottom line, if i have not stated clearly already, is that i believe the WS truly believes they love the OP until either that R ends or they are in recovery w/their BS.

::::OW once told my husband that she hates cats. (again she knew that my husband doesn't like cats at all)but on the other hand, OW had 13 cats of her own........ (gosh and he believed what OW told him)

BB, Your H's OW???? What a cow! Some sexual predators are more blantant than others eh? And she couldn't even be faithful to her cats! I bet she even lied about her broom stick! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />