Hi Uphill...I read your reply...I just wanted to get your attention just in case you didn't go back to the FWW/WW thread. I am truly confused and would like for you to explain things more specifically, if you will. I think you hit the nail on the head with how my H feels (he actually referred to a previous post of yours to me during our conversation), but I don't get it. I mean that in all sincerity and will all the desire in the world to get it. It must be how males and females communicated/feel cause Sadfww doesn't get it either. Can we continue to try to bridge this venus/mars gap? I want to understand better so that I can learn.

rae:

I saw two very good replies on sadfww's thread. One is from RG, a BH, and the other from Rose55, a FWW.

The crux is to not think of how your H ought to be reacting, and look at how he is. That is the essence of validation, and I'll bet a dollar that he's probably felt for many years now that you are always telling him how to think and feel, but not validating how he is feeling.

Please read their comments. I think you and all FWW struggling to reconcile will learn something.

My STBXWW did, but it was too late. There is such a thing as "too little, too late". don't let it happen to you

Uphill,

Thanks for responding. I did read the replies and it makes more sense now. I've only been married for a 16 mos. and am only 26. Yeah, I know...I'm young and terribly naive.

My H has a hard time expressing his feelings. But you're right, out of the few times that he has expressed them, some of the time I have acted as if his feelings are wrong. I did this more in the beginning of our relationship, but can see how he's seeing flashbacks from the past per our recent conversation. I will take the suggestions to heart, believe me. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

As of now, thanks to my H's sister, we've set up a better system of separation. We will go with no contact for 2 weeks at a time and reevaluate every 2 wks. I think that this is good...this will allow him time to work through his anger and figure out more clearly what he wants to do. I'm gonna stay with my grandparents who live about 10 min. away during the wk. and he'll stay at the house during the week. Fri pm through Mon am I get to stay at the house. He'll spend time on the weekends at his sister's.

rae

Rae, I`ll respond here instead of the ww/fww thread.

RG--please do tell us what your FWW did that was right. I will take these suggestions to heart.

I`ve been thinking about this question for hours now and there is no answer to it. She was a classic walk away wife, the A was a exit A. I had neglected her for years without realising I was doing it. She thought I didn`t care about or love her anymore. We were married at 18 eachothers first loves. For me this first love bond was unbreakable. I tryed to hate her but I couldn`t, I could only love her.

So I turned and started to fight for my M. I took a long deep look at myself for the first time ever and really didn`t like what I saw. I was broken, my M was broken. I changed everything I didn`t like about myself through plan A.

You see people "think" plan A is all about luring a S back into the M. But what it really does is change the person that is doing it into someone that is impossible NOT to love.

Rae, your H has not decided he wants the M yet. He still loves you though or he wouldn`t be spying on you. So its going to be up to you to fight for the M. until he starts to come around.

So what can you do? I can`t tell you that either, I can only guess at what his needs are right now.

Right now he needs admiration. He needs to know that you admire him, he is first in your life. That there is no other that can hold a candel to him. Do you understand?

He needs to know you are sorry. That you have guilt. otherwise he will only see coldness in your actions.

Hope this helps,

RG

Hi RG-

Well, based on all of the stuff I've been trying to DO lately, I think that what he needs for me to do is leave him alone so that he can make a clear decision, free of anger and resentment. I know that's gonna take time alone. I've been struggling with not being able to see him and talk to him and have been trying to DO things to help him want to talk to me and see me. Clearly, once again, that's been the wrong way to go about it. He needs to, on his own, decide to want to see me talk to me. Until then, I must work on self. Have been trying to be patient but have only succeeded in quasi-patience, if that makes sense. Right now, when he thinks of me, he thinks of the A...so anything i try to do...even though the intentions are good...won't be met with anything but anger.

Thanks for the help...
Rae

Rae, you`re still not getting it.

I've been struggling with not being able to see him and talk to him and have been trying to DO things to help him want to talk to me and see me.

These are your needs. When he did talk to you, you used that time to try and meet your needs of a place to live. You have to have empathy to feel what he is feeling and then meet that need.

The lack of empathy is what causes all this crap in M in the first place. When one S learns empathy the other quickly follows.

If you would have said, " I`m so sorry that I am the cause of your pain. You are the most wonderful man in the world. I wish I could go back in time and take away every hurtful thing I ever did or said to you and replace it with kindness."

Do you think he would have still told you to get a lawyer?


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3620_state.html

You need to read, learn and then live this link. You are in a state of conflict, your H is in a state of withdrawl.

"But this step from Withdrawal to Conflict is a step in the right direction, and provides spouses an opportunity to regain Intimacy -- if they can resist the advice of their Takers. Withdrawal may seem more peaceful, but it is actually a shuttering down of the marriage. A return to the state of Conflict is a sign that the partners have restored hope -- the marriage is worth fighting over. By coming out of Withdrawal, they are lowering their emotional defenses and taking the risk of getting close to each other again.


While demanding and arguing is instinctive in the state of Conflict, one spouse can lead the other back to Intimacy by resisting the Taker's temptation to fight. It takes two to argue, and i if one spouse makes an effort to avoid making demands and judgmental statements, and tries to be thoughtful and meet the other's needs, the other spouse usually calms down and does the same thing.

Once they see each other's caring efforts, and rebuild their Love Bank accounts, they re-enter the Intimacy stage. But there's an irony that trips up some couples. Which spouse do you think is the first to move back into the state of Intimacy: the one who makes the first effort to meet the other's needs, or the recipient of that effort? You may have guessed it. The recipient of care is usually the first to return to the state of intimacy, and not the one who make the greatest effort to save the relationship.

Hope this helps,

RG

RG-

To answer your question, I actually did tell him that I'm sorry that he is angry and that I know he's angry cause he's is in pain and that I caused of that pain. I told him that, then he told me to get a lawyer.

I do get it that I was trying to meet my needs and not his at the time I asked if I could move back in...that was exactly my point of that paragraph.

I see the state of conflict withdrawal thing. But let me ask this- how am I supposed to meet his needs when I don't even know what they are? How am I supposed to meet his needs when he won't tell me what they are...and yes, I've asked. Anytime I've asked if there's anything I can do, he just says no. What does that mean? Do nothing? If so, then that's what I am gonna do until I hear otherwise from him.

Rae

Rae, let me try and explain a litte better. First of all this is not easy it does not happen overnight. It will take some trial and error before you will be able to have empathy read his EN`s.

To answer your question, I actually did tell him that I'm sorry that he is angry and that I know he's angry cause he's is in pain and that I caused of that pain. I told him that, then he told me to get a lawyer.

You told him you were sorry he was angry not that you were sorry you caused his pain. Do you see that?

Now look at what I said I`ll point out where the empathy is and the EN is.

" I`m so sorry that I am the cause of your pain.(regret) You are the most wonderful man in the world.(admoration) I wish I could go back in time and take away every hurtful thing I ever did or said to you and replace it with kindness.(true repentance and willingness to change)"

I see the state of conflict withdrawal thing. But let me ask this- how am I supposed to meet his needs when I don't even know what they are? How am I supposed to meet his needs when he won't tell me what they are...and yes, I've asked.

And he`s not going to tell you what they are. So stop asking and start observing him. Luckily for you there are only 5 for men and they are fairly universal.


1. Sexual Fulfillment. 2. Recreational Companionship. 3. An Attractive Spouse. 4. Domestic Support. 5. Admiration.

Admiration goes to the top after you have been betrayed, because that is what has been robbed from you.

Anytime I've asked if there's anything I can do, he just says no. What does that mean?

It means he`s in withdrawl. If I were you and I`m not only you can decide what is best.
I would start leaving him love notes. Don`t talk to him in person. Just leave him love notes, full of admiration, regret, love and kindness. Bring up the really good times you two have had in the past in them.

Expect nothing in return, don`t ask for anything in return.

This should let him start thinking of you in a good way again, while still respecting his need for space.

RG-

Okay...yeah I see the difference in what I said and what your suggestion was.

I don't think that writing him loves notes directly to him would be a good idea...b/c what we've agreed upon right now is absolutely no contact. BUT, when we were married my sister gave me this journal to record our memories in...I could write in it and leave it out...poems...memories from our honeymoon...he's bound to look in it. I also had a scrapbook called "Our Life" that I"d started, but stopped when our marriage became stale. I could kind of catch up on that and leave that out as well. I wouldn't do both, but I could do one or the other. What do you think? Also, on the weekends, (since I'll be at home) I can do nice things for him...do his laundry, make him cookies, etc. I did that once when I came home to do laundry. This weekend I went to the store for some things he'll need during the week. I made him some BBQ beef so he'll have something to eat for dinner. I also made a cake...of course I ate a piece...okay 2, but they were small <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> and left the rest for him. I don't want to overkill, b/c then it'll seem like I'm smothering him from a distance. I guess that these are meeting domestic needs (laundry, food) and showing admiration (journal/poems)...or don't they? Aaaahhh! I don't know anymore! My head is just spinning and I don't know what to do and what not to do. I've lost confidence in my abilities as a wife, as his mate, as his best friend. I guess that's how I made him feel by the A...that he wasn't a good enough H, mate and best friend. God forgive me.

Rae

Rae,

I guess that these are meeting domestic needs (laundry, food) and showing admiration (journal/poems)...

I think you`ve got it now.

RG

RG-

Thanks for your patience in explaining things to this naive 26-yr.-old. I hope it's okay to call upon you from time to time for advice.

Rae

rae,

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> To answer your question, I actually did tell him that I'm sorry that he is angry and that I know he's angry cause he's is in pain and that I caused of that pain. I told him that, then he told me to get a lawyer.

I do get it that I was trying to meet my needs and not his at the time I asked if I could move back in...that was exactly my point of that paragraph.

I see the state of conflict withdrawal thing. But let me ask this- how am I supposed to meet his needs when I don't even know what they are? How am I supposed to meet his needs when he won't tell me what they are...and yes, I've asked. Anytime I've asked if there's anything I can do, he just says no. What does that mean? Do nothing? If so, then that's what I am gonna do until I hear otherwise from him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Rae, you can learn his needs by simply watching him and LISTENING to him. Right now he needs to withdraw and thing about all of this. IT is what us guys do. Rather than leave him notes, talk to his sister and telll her how much you love him and want him back. Tell her what you like about him, or what you respect about him. Make sure you validate to your mutual friends that you do love him and miss him.

Don't over do it, but let it be known you respect him and love him. Right now he feels you respect him very little and that you think he is a fool. What you have not considered is that you have damaged him and how he sees himself. You cannot put that back together but you can help him do it if he learns to trust you and sees you as his friend again.

Also when given the chance be his friend again. It will take time. Honor his requests, and listen to what he says, you will learn a lot. But also watch how he interacts with other guys. Us guys tend to say a lot without saying much at all. Women like to talk things out, guys don't but they do address things. They do it with a joke, a pat on the back, a punch to the arm, whatever. Yet,there is acknowledgement there. You need to acknowledge who he is and that includes what he feels.

It is a long road Rae, and since you marriage is young if I recall correctly, it is a very narrow road. Hang in there and don't panic. You have been getting good advice from the the other posters here listen to it carefully.

God Bless,

JL

JL-

Thanks for the advice. You've all made this a lot clearer to me. You know, looking back, I see that when I was telling him every single time I spoke to him that I was sorry...when I was more humble, when i was less pushy...he was reacting a lot more positively than he has been. I just got too impatient. Back to square one I guess.

Rae