you and i have not crossed paths much so i don't know your story. i'm not sure if you know mine or not.

i'm sure you have read everything that was said about what you posted in dreamcatchers thread, "told H - wish i had not". some there say this tone from you is very unusual and maybe something is up with you.

so this thread is for you. are you ok??

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Noodle,

I liked the post to dreamcatcher. You describe the BS's pain/agony as well as anyone. The alegory (s) (metaphor?) used are lost on many and the righteous charge in to smite you.

A grain of salt, please, people!!

k

(Edited to ask "Noodle, you are OK, aren't you?)

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: krusht ]</small>

I’m sitting in front of the computer screen with the cat in my lap. As I slowly pet him in this darkened room, I feel like Dr. Evil…

Noodle, I very much like reading your posts. So please don't hide. But, you misrepresented me a bit. I have never written that any WS deserves corporal punishment for their A or the resulting fallout. What they have done is indeed impossible to erase by any means. Ever. Period. And I do not subscribe to moral relativism. A’s and their consequences are absolutely worse than almost anything. But I cannot even imagine my wife suffering at my hands. That is incomprehensible. I love her way too much. And I will defend her person with my life against anyone who tried to hurt her (including OMM).

I am relieved we do not live in a country where adultery is punishable by stoning, or beheading or whatever. She would be as gone as if she ran off with OMM – more so, she’d be dead. That would make me worse than sad. No, what I hope to look forward to is a wife who truly cares about me again. Loves me like she used to. And maybe a wiser wife. Time will tell.

Hell, maybe a wiser me, too. Maybe I will learn when to keep my hands off the keyboard when reading emotionally charged threads.


Sadww, in case you read this: OK, you got it. No more posts to you from me. But for the record, I was not fingering you. I was asking in general if any WS's truly understand the magnitude of what they have done to their victims. Victims they were very much aware of from the very beginning of their affair(s). Otherwise they would not have tried to keep it all so secret while it lasted. And when they come clean, if they do, well, they still have the same victims to face. It must be hard.

I asked some difficult questions and examined some obvious answers. There were too many people judging DC's unfortunate H. No one was in his corner at all. No one. One poster even said she would accept crucifying innocent people to get her way wrt abusers – and no one but me even blinked! No one else called her on that violent suggestion. Why was that I wonder? Because she is a WS and all WS’s must be handled with kid gloves? My whole point was to get some balanced support for DC's H. He is not an abuser. He is reacting to the greatest most personally harmful betrayal he will ever experience in a relatively normal way.

But then the responses from WS's actually started sounding to me just like what I was writing about. Anything that makes the WS feel bad is a violation. I understand that some WS's don't like having to look into themselves. That must be hard, too.

There, that was a thrown pebble. But by now I feel I am entitled to one. I still don't feel I am entitled to an A, though.

Back to the cat and glowering evilly…

T

!@#%$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lost first post to void land of oops.
Bet quite a few wish it had been the other post instead. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I don't though. I'm willing to enter into lengthy discussion as to why.
Not today though..as I now have inadequate time.

I think this is an issue worthy of inspection..I intend to fully explore it and invite others to do the same. Knife throwing will be allowed, it doesn't offend me. I am aware that this is a very sore issue for many.

I do, however, apologise for placing my academic assertion that the WS may indeed be deserving of retaliation [whether it is practical or ethical is another story entirely] on a thread that was not intended for such. It was not meant as a personal response to DC..I just happenned to notice that YET ANOTHER WS said the magic words.."I made a mistake" and very dismissively "I know I don't deserve to be treated badly because of what I've done" [not quoting DC..just sentiment in general]

Posters beware..

This is an extremely touchy subject..and although I think it worthy of discussion and helpfull to both BS and WS..there be things in these waters that can kill you and eat you..so if you are planning on drinking coffee while posting..maybe decaff?

--Noodle

FL..Thanks for the inquiry, I'm fine and dandy. My post doesn't seem out of character to me ..but perhaps looking deeper into the topic over the next period of weeks or months will give any rogue hormones a chance to clear up, and I may recant.

Thos..My agreement with you was specifically regarding your very well laid out descriptions and legal references..sorry if it didn't read that way.

Krusht, yes..it is always a risk to use graphic imagery. People are often offended. If they are so blinded by offense that they miss the larger picture though..you can only assume that you have failed to communicate with your intended audience adequately. You can't hit a 10 all the time [shrugs]

Noodle,

I want to take this opportunity to tell you something since FL said this is your thread,so I'm not crashing.

Lately,I have read many more of your posts and I can't help but say what an overwhelming feeling it is to know that there is someone out there that I identify with so much.In so many things you say,I feel like you are speaking for me.Such as over riding your impulses;it's beneath you to commit adultery because of the same reasons you don't abuse your children or cheat on your taxes(so much for the idea that everyone can fall into an A, BAH!);your sense of duty and obligation both smothers you yet sustains you;the worth of your word;da** high standards for yourself and no I don't believe there is anything wrong with that,I wish more people were like that;when the WS values were challenged,they were conquered(I say they failed);I too do not know if I would remarry my WH had I known about his weaknesses(but I can't ever erase what 2 beautiful daughters I have),were they not here,I doubt it.

I can go on but I just wanted to say how refreshing it is.You strike a cord with so many here and it's for a reason.You sound like a strong woman and I appreciate your candor.

O

Noodle,

I was shocked that anyone would question the assertion that a WS deserves retribution or retaliation. I live in a state where adultery IS a criminal offense - I just wish it were enforced. The main problem with living in a country where adultery is punishable by stoning is that it typically only adultery by women that is punished - not that I would recommend stoning; a long jail term would do nicely.

I wonder if people got all upset when Kenny Rogers first came out with "Ruby, don't take your love to town," in which he says something about if he could move he'd get his gun and put her in the ground. Or what about "The night the lights went out in Georgia?" There are probably hundreds of songs about violent responses to adultery, and as far as I know, the radio stations still play them without the listeners getting up in arms.

Noodle,

I am far from perfect and I have made some HUGE mistakes in the past but my epiphany came almost 20 years ago when I decided that I am solely responsible for my life and its backbone, often times referred to as truth. I paid an incredible price to get where I am today but that payment has given me dividends for the last 20 years.

I share 10Girls admiration for your courage and skill as a writer. As I have stated before, there is a reason you are quoted in my bio line.

***Edited also by JustUss*********

Any questions,,email me...JustUss2@aol.com***

<small>[ November 02, 2004, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

^Bump^

For noodle

Noodle,

I would like to apologize to you. Not because I was disturbed by your post, but because I should have expressed *why* I was disturbed in a better way...in a way that was more productive and had some hope of helping you understand what felt disturbing to *me* and how I believed that it would affect other posters.

Those thoughts you expressed were probably in keeping with some of the things that many BSs feel. I sincerely want you to know that while I understand how you might feel, that the way the feelings were presented were not about how you feel...if they had been...I don't believe they would have hurt anyone else so deeply.

I've had time to think about this....and I posted this on another thread, but wanted to repost it here:

I honestly don't think anyone here is expected to be a saint or refrain from expressing their feelings of pain/disappointment/anger...even in graphic detail. I just sincerely hope, that as much as possible...the expression of those feelings is centered on *I* statements...and not directed at other posters. If I said for instance that "When my husband cheated on me, I was so hurt and so angry that I wanted to drag him in the middle of town and set him on fire." that would be about how *I* feel, and I would certainly have justification for feelings those things. I don't think anyone would be offended that I felt that way. But if I told someone else that "*you* deserve to be dragged to the center of town and set on fire" that's completely different. And if I said that "When *I* found out, that even my husband's death did not feel like sufficient compensation for my pain", I think people would clearly understand that. However, a declaration that "Even killing *you* is not enough" that becomes very personal and very harmful. Then, it isn't about me...it's about using someone else as a surrogate for my pain. The post in question was filled with "you, you, you"....which is quite hard not to misunderstand because it becomes just one huge judgement directed at an individual. Even if those sentiments had been communicated in a way that expressed how MOST BS who just found out "could/might" feel....I doubt seriously that there would have been much of an uproar at all.

Again, I am sorry for not expressing this to you in a more helpful way. I do believe strongly that in order to help everyone who comes here...all of us in pain...that we need to talk about our pain, and help each other understand that pain. For that the happen, without creating MORE pain it would be compassionate to express those feelings with *I* statements that don't sound like judgements. That is the way for MB to be safe for all the people who need it.

Again...I am sorry for the way that I expressed myself....since I did precisely the same thing...it should have been about "me" and not what others should do.

I don't know for sure...but I think this might be a big part of the hulabaloo and hard feelings. I personally like this forum with everyone in it...that's always been a big part of it's strength and appeal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just sincerely hope, that as much as possible...the expression of those feelings is centered on *I* statements...and not directed at other posters. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You exactly hit the nail on the head, star*fish. This entire experience these past 2 days has reminded me of that fact. My goal from here on out is to be as careful with my words here, as I am with my words at home to my H and kids.

EVERYone has feelings, and everyone deserves respect and compassion. Thanks for finding the words to explain this, in (what I consider) a very healthy, productive way.

Spidey

*And a special shout-out to Noodle! Hey girl!!!

Star*Fish,

I thank you for the apology.. because it shows that we have both gone back and reconsidered the *finer points* shall we say of our posts.

I was not offended by your posts or your actions..so didn't really feel an apology was needed..however formalities do make for convenient lubrication in later interactions.

I agree with what you have said re: words such as "you"..while meant as an impersonal "you" [if such a thing exists] will not be received as such and frankly..these errors are just sloppy and indefensable. I should have used the impersonal term WS instead. I disagree though that I should reference everything with an "I" statement. The only I statement appropriate in my post was the given that this is a message board and therefore "I" am giving my opinion..not writing legislation.


I admit that I am suprised to see that people are reading pain into my writing..as my honest reflection is that it was one of the least impassioned posts I have ever written [and as such..I didn't put much thought or effort into it..that never works out well does it].

I am not going to apologise for the subject though..and I am also not interested in looking into it as an exploration of my feelings, but rather in a machiavellian..very specific way. I do have a reason for putting it on the post that I did..however, in retrospect, I do agree that it was the wrong place.

My imagery was not a suggestion, however..and I am going to take issue with that.

It was meant to be an example of the same parameters of action taken in a different direction..and how extreme and horrific they are..yet just because they are responding in kind to the exact *rules change* the WS has executed in the relationship.

This is chewy subject matter..and far too broad to be contained in one post [yet another sloppy error] so again I erred in judgement by failing to start my own thread and hijacking someone elses.

I consider the issue closed. If someone feels otherwise I am of course willing to consider their opinion. Perhaps in my suggested thread while looking deeply into the hole that has been long considerred taboo. Nothing about an affair is sacred from where I'm standing. I'll poke anything I like..just not anyone . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

--Noodle

Noodle,

I appreciate your response. One thing that does stick out...is that you mention that the "you" in your post was meant to be the generic "you", and I'm not sure that was evident (to me). Specifically because you related it to dc's husband "if he" or "if your H" wanted to do XXXX, "you deserve it". I don't think there was anyway (at least for me) to interpret the "you" to mean "any WS"...it truly did appear directly spoken to dc. If that was your intent, then perhaps it would help for dc to know that.

I have had time to re-evaluate my posting...and I believe that using more *I's* instead of *we's* would have made a huge difference in the value of my posts and not caused others to feel scolded by me. My intent was to get people to "think" about the mixed messages that can be sent. I'm quite unhappy that it has caused such a ruckus because I didn't present it in a better way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm quite unhappy that it has caused such a ruckus because I didn't present it in a better way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">star*fish, it is my opinion of late, that no matter how you presented it, some people just feel entitled.

This is a public forum, that is their choice.

Noodle, I, for one, do not think my H's actions deserve for him to be treated in the way you described in your post. Or the OW. I don't understand what you were saying to star*fish about your post in your last response. Probably just above this simple girl's head.

::Noodle, I, for one, do not think my H's actions deserve for him to be treated in the way you described in your post. Or the OW.

SS, I would think that Noodle would be delighted for you. If this is how you think, then count yourself most fortunate.

Years ago I attended a PMS support group. One woman commented that she wasn't sure whether she suffered from PMS or not. I was incredulous. Basically if you aren't sure then you don't suffer from it.

SS, if you have not had violent feelings toward your FWH or the OW then you cannot possibly understand what Noodle is talking about. And you are very lucky.

:::I don't understand what you were saying to star*fish about your post in your last response.

No problem. It's not necessary that you understand. If you are unaffected by the feelings that Noodle alludes to then stay away from them, least you should understand.

I have had angry feelings toward FWH and OW.

And I am INCREDIBLY grateful that I have been able to heal and move forward.

And I don't worry about "catching" those feelings, like a bad cold. Noodle's post didn't upset me. I was just sharing with her that I don't, and have not, imagined that particular scenario.

Did you ever purchase that book we talked about on Recovery? "Forgive for Good" by Luskin? It has helped me tremendously in letting go of my pain.

I am so sorry your body has reacted so painfully to all the stress. My mother has Multiple Sclerosis, and I was so worried that the stress of the A was going to make me show symptoms or something. My joints seem more tender than they did, but could be my imagination. I would expect after losing so much weight since d-day, and keeping 2/3 of it off, my joints would feel better!

Peace and love to you, anyname. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

:::Did you ever purchase that book we talked about on Recovery? "Forgive for Good" by Luskin? It has helped me tremendously in letting go of my pain.

If I tell you that I've not had my tooth capped since the root canal 10 months ago, will you understand that I barely do anything I am meant to do?

:::I am so sorry your body has reacted so painfully to all the stress. My mother has Multiple Sclerosis, and I was so worried that the stress of the A was going to make me show symptoms or something. My joints seem more tender than they did, but could be my imagination. I would expect after losing so much weight since d-day, and keeping 2/3 of it off, my joints would feel better!

It's 3am. I did 1 hour 20 mins of fast walking today. I also took someone sightseeing most of the day (a house guest). I have been out to dinner and arrived home at 11.30pm and I have not been to sleep yet because when I try to sleep I get panic attacks. My chest is burning and I just had awful heart palpatation. My FWH has been asleep since midnight and I am careful not to wake him up because he works hard during the day. But I cannot help but feel resentful that I didn't have a sleeping problem before his A. I cannot even remember what it is like to fall asleep without a cocktail of pills (which as you can see aren't working!). Oh and I am meeting tummytuck for the first time tomorrow and I will feel and like *&^% as usual.

I really don't know what the answer to this is. Bullet in the head I think. Mine, not his.

AN ps, Apart from my health problems (all of which are stress related) I think I am moving improving in my attitude to H. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If I tell you that I've not had my tooth capped since the root canal 10 months ago, will you understand that I barely do anything I am meant to do? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear you, girlfriend. I am supposed to be meeting my new boss, about my new job (that I got less than 24 hours ago) in less than an hour and I have yet to shower! I must RIP myself away from you wonderful people and do some "real world" stuff now.

How exciting to meet tummytuck! I am jealous. The only other people I know that live in my area are men. If we met in a large group, not a big deal, but I don't feel comfortable having lunch with them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Have a great time. Again, I will plug that book to you. VERY insightful. On the cover, it says that "Holding a grudge could be hazardous to your health!" I'm not saying you are holding a grudge, but that chronic pain is not good for the body.

HUGS!

Spidey