Talked to my wife last night in a very calm non LB way. She is here just to get her fix. She is not here to work on us. It is all for her. When I questioned her motives for being here she got angry at me. Remebered all the bad things in our marriage, threw my mistakes in my face. When I told her to leave if she wasn't here to make our marriage work, she got even angrier and called me controlling among other things. When I told her that I didn't think the A was over she why do you think that. I said well you just said you were going to ask OM for more money. And she says well he respects me. So no it isn't over and I was foolish to let her stay here the last couple of days. I made my share of mistakes in this relationship boy did I but I don't need this in my life. I was nervous as a cat yesterday, I am a conflict avoider, but I did talk to her last night and found out the truth from her. She doesn't love me. The big one she threw out was that I was selfish in letting her adult choldren know about the A. That seems to be a big one in her eyes. I explained that it was just a way to get her to end the A. I think I will change my name to "Foolish Man".

U R not a foolish man. What you did is more than most would have done. Does a BS LB? Yes. Often with good reason.

So don't browbeat yourself. She would have thrown something in your face even if you were perfect. It isn't about you....as you can see it is all about her and so you can use this and twist it so that things like the exposure is all about her also.

As for the children knowing, well they aren't stupid, so let her know they have figured it out anyway. After all, the children are smart, right? Again put the right spin and you can reverse babble back to the WS and leave their head spinning. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Take a breather and clear out your mind and heart. Don't leave it empty. Fill your mind and heart with the love for what is right.

take care,
L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hopefulinnc:
<strong>The big one she threw out was that I was selfish in letting her adult choldren know about the A. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If there's ANY doubt that she isn't being controlled by aliens on the Mothership, this ought to clear it up! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

This should speak volumes to you!

What kind of rational person - in the midst of a self centered affair - could sincerely say ANYTHING like this with a straight face?

Ding, ding, ding, ding! Right answer! No rational person can!

So stop thinking of her as rational!

Do not treat her as a rational person!

Find comfort in the fact that she's out of her (rational) mind and not capable at the moment of seeing reality!

You cannot expect a blind man to see. You cannot expect a wayward spouse to think straight.

<small>[ November 23, 2004, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

WAT, thanks for responding. I had hoped you would. I tried to explain to her that exposing her A to her children was an effort to end the A. I was not trying to hurt her. She feels like I should have kept her secret. She has a friend or two that did not expose to their children. The A is not over and won't be for a while I think. She is going to have to hit bottom I think.

Expose that affair to EVERYONE!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I tried to explain to her that exposing her A to her children was an effort to end the A. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You DON'T say things like this. While it may have been one of your objectives, you don't tell your spouse that you are, in effect, trying to manipulater her.

Informing the childern, their becoming aware of their mother's adultery, is NOT the first step, but sometimes it is necessary. It is necessary because the WS will not end the affair. It is necessary because they WILL find out, and it is better to find out from a parent who loves them than to be hit in the face with it by someone else.

If they are adults, they are stupid or blind. They will know that something is wrong.

Bottom line is that the kids know because of your wife's actions, not because of any other reason.

It's a consequence of her sin. Adultery flourishes in, and NEEDS, secrecy. It is very hard to maintain the fantasy when it is out in the open and the effects it has on others we care about begins to be seen.

Bottom line, the children know because of your wife, not because of you. Sans the affair, such information would never have been a part of their lives.

God bless.

Hopeful -

Keep hanging in there. They do come out of their craziness. You just have to maintain your boundaries.

My WH is just now realizing (after 22 months) how much pain and damage he has caused.

WAT is right - she is still being controlled by the mothership. Don't try to talk rationally to her.

Of course she didn't want her kids to know. And of course she'd be angry that she was exposed. I'm sure they had an inkling and this just put the pieces of the puzzle together.

Think good throughts

I think people around here need to stop splitting hairs and making moral judgments concerning every act a BS takes to end the affair. That’s what I think!

The man exposed their mother’s behavior to her children and she was offended by this act. To bad! Further, the question should not be, (should never be), what motivated him to do so? That is between he and his conscience and is not subject to anyone else’s interpretation.

The only question that should ever be raised in this situation is why she would be offended, (why would anybody be offended) by the truth being told? If you don’t do things that you are ashamed of, that would be considered morally and ethically offensive to any right thinking individual, then why would it matter who knows what it is that was done!?

Sorry people, if you want the right answers you have to begin by asking the right questions.
Coach

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ForeverHers:
<strong>Informing the childern, their becoming aware of their mother's adultery, is NOT the first step, but sometimes it is necessary.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FH - not clear what you mean, but if you're saying exposure to adult children should NOT be an intentional act by the BS, you're dead wrong.

Further, they should be the first to expose to!

Please tell me I misinterpreted your response.

WAT

When I questioned her motives for being here she got angry at me.

Remember ... ALL of her anger (at this point in time) is ego-defending , and hence irrational.

Remebered all the bad things in our marriage, threw my mistakes in my face.

This is her ego-defending illogic. Meaningless. Irrational. Please ignore.

When I told her to leave if she wasn't here to make our marriage work, she got even angrier and called me controlling among other things.

Next time she calls YOU "controlling" ... here is YOUR RESPONSE:

"I AM taking control of what happends to me. YOU are free to control your own life until it hurts me or our children. At that time, I will take charge and stop any destructive actions to the best of my abilities. That is my duty as a man and a father... AND a husband.

Being "controlling" when WW is being hurtful is OK... so claim it!!! OWN your power to control. Instead of taking it as an insult .... TURN IT AROUND ... and take it as a compliment.

And she says well he respects me.

See how utterly stupid affairs are ... The man who commits sin with her and caused her to abandon her own values, vows, and family ... suddenly this is cloaked as "respect" .... HOGWASH.

Your reply (next time) ... "To me, engaging a married woman in an adulterous affair is the epitome of disrespect. A man who respected you would not ask you to leave your family in disgrace.""

I was nervous as a cat yesterday, I am a conflict avoider, but I did talk to her last night and found out the truth from her.

The conflict avoider part of your nature is YOUR past pattern that contributed to the decline of your marriage.

Fix this part of yourself.

She doesn't love me.

Know what ... she doesn't love herself right now... and hence she has no "authentic self" to offer anyone. She needs OM to tell her she is "OK" ... because deep in her heart ... she is lost lost lost ... lost to herself. She is seeking her identity through the eyes of OM ... and brother ... this is a very sad state for a woman to find herself. Her good feelings about herself DEPEND on the affections of an adulterous married man. Pity her ... she's in a pickle of rotten brine... and on some level, she's aware of this.... but she is too prideful to say... "Help me. I am lost." And until she utters those words ... anything you do is "controlling".

The big one she threw out was that I was selfish in letting her adult choldren know about the A. That seems to be a big one in her eyes.

HaHaHa ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Yeah, sure <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .... YOU are selfish.

See... utter horsepucky... nonsense... hogwash... fog babble... blah blah blah...

I explained that it was just a way to get her to end the A. I think I will change my name to "Foolish Man".

Don't you DARE change your name.

But.... please... stop trying to talk sense to her... her head is completely up her own butt and she cannot hear you.

Pep

<small>[ November 23, 2004, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ForeverHers:
Informing the childern, their becoming aware of their mother's adultery, is NOT the first step, but sometimes it is necessary.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FH - not clear what you mean, but if you're saying exposure to adult children should NOT be an intentional act by the BS, you're dead wrong.

Further, they should be the first to expose to!

Please tell me I misinterpreted your response.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, I'll tell you WAT. You misinterpreted my response.

What I'm saying is very simple. First, IF the children, adult or otherwise, ARE to be informed, it should be by the faithful spouse and not by some other means.

Second, I believe strongly that the "circle of knowledge" of an affair should be kept as small as possible. In essence, what goes on between a husband and wife stays between a husband and wife unless there are compelling reasons to expand that "circle of knowledge." IF a WS responds and recommits to the marriage before any additional need for expanding that circle of knowledge, then it stays that way. But sometimes the WS is not responding and there comes a point where their infidelity IS going to become known. That is when the issue must be addressed by the one who loves the WS and wants the marriage to be saved.

Further, they should be the first to expose to!

I disagree with this. There are others that may well come before the children in the "need to know" order of priorities and timing. A Pastor/Counselor for example.

That is what I was saying. Sorry it wasn't clear enough to avoid confusion.

HNC,

Now you know why letting our instincts make decisions is counterproductive. Plan A/Plan B are counter-intuitive but they are effective tools for the BS to be able to constructively deal with the affair no matter what ultimately happens to the marriage.

Plan B is initially difficult for a BS because it simulates the conditions of a divorce [separation, no contact] but necessary if there is any desire to save the marriage. Granted that there is no guarantee that with a near perfect execution of Plan A/Plan B the WS will end the affair and express a desire to rebuild the marriage, but even in that scenario it is still the best way for the BS to end the marriage and move on with his/her life.

Plan B or bust, that should be your motto from now on.

coach:

EXTREMELY well said!

-ol' 2long

HINC,

Telling the kids was a big no no? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Do me a favor and stop defending yourself and quit avoiding conflict. That way you won't have any conflict. Do you realize how much easier that conversation with her would have gone had you looked her in the eye and said "I am not lying to my children to cover up your adultery." End of statement, end of excuses, end of debate.

HINC, you need to understand how to avoid conflict and that is to tell the truth, and put the truth on her every time she sticks her head up. That way there will be NO CONFLICT because you will not be conflicted. It really is that simple. Arguements end when people simply state the truth and leave the truth to make the statement. There is no need to argue, no need to debate, no need to rehash.

Look the woman in the eye and tell it like it is and You will see a different response from her.

I hope you have a great Thanksgiving and enjoy your children's visit enormously.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ November 23, 2004, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>