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thanks crowd...glad that it helped; as you can see I have been around since Jan 2000...whew! interesting that your sig line could read like our A played out..hmm...

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Haven't posted in a while....but this really caught my attention.

It's true that WH made all these promises to move back home. He seemed sincere at the time. He moved back, and now doesn't FEEL like making good on any of the promises.

I recall our conversation the night before WH moved home.....he told me "I gave up a really good relationship for us!"

Why, oh why, didn't the red flags come up? I should have stopped the whole thing at that time. But I didn't. I wanted to believe. BIG FRIGGIN' MISTAKE!!!!

There has been contact since he came home. I don't know how much. I keep watching. Confronting. And more than anything, it hurts me more for WH to look me in the eye and lie to me.

So, I feel I am awash in the sea. How do I re-instate my boundaries without LB, or causing WH to end up hating me?

And, don't even get ME started on the special adultery cell phones! Cell phones should all be destroyed! IMO

K72172

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Perhaps that is the real key...if you do not know your spouse before an affair occurs, how in the world are you supposed to be able to recover? How do you know when is the right time to push or to step back?

I agree Victoria, it is ALL about strategy, and in order to win you must know your opponent.

Emotions need to be left at the door. They will screw you everytime.

Now where's that door? I think I forgot to leave something there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

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weaver ~ I think that you have hit on a very important point. It certainly became a whole lot easier once I stopped letting my emotions get the best of me. I didn't stop feeling them, but found an outlet that would not interfere with my plan A and my life. I began journalling and have mountains of them...I found that logic helped me out more than anything.

I also found a website way back then that said that the best way to handle a problem is to remove yourself from it and then look at it objectively as a third person. Then you can determine how serious it actually is, think it through clearly and formulate a rational solution. It equated it to sitting on a park bench and putting the problem on the seat next to you and looking at it from a different perspective...takes practice but it sure worked and helped prevent me from reacting instead of acting in a positive manner.

Let's face it...you can't do any plan correctly if your emotions are running rampant. You must get yourself under control first...and that may take some time. Unfortunately a lot of people are afraid that if they allow themselves that time that they will lose? Fear...that has probably done as much damage to some relationships in the long run as the A.

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Many BS fear that removing them self (emotions) and letting the WS do what they have to do on there own will result in them looking like a doormat ...

FEAR of what others will preseve of you ,, one fear I got rid of very fast ,,, no one neeeded to agree or disagree with the way I handled the A ,or any of the contact that took palce while H was home ...

I knew it was ME who had to live with the way I handle things ..

AND to answer the questions ,, the BS always give alot to have the WS turn FWS and come back ..

THERES nothing wrong with it ,, nothing wrong with saving your M as long as you have no regrets and are true to the person who matters most "YOURSELF"

AGREED again KNOWING YOUR SPOUSE is a big BIG BIG key to all this ... seeing them to what they call FOG ,,, is what you need to know ...and knowing the difference between the 2 .

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bob Pure:
I think the rate of our progress is a vindication of my patient negotiated approach in our sitiuation but others seem to be far more immediately demanding of their WS.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob ... I've been watching this thread, just seeing what direction it would go before I answered your question....

Your "patient negotiated approach" ... was coached by the board members, including myself. It was classic Plan A finding and keeping your better self... getting prepared for your plan B .... which never came about because .... !!!

Now, imagine your marriage today if OM's son had not died tragically and OM had not put the kabosh on the affair himself... imagine where you might be without that event. Can you see it?

Then what? What would your next move be if the affair had not been killed by a random tragedy?

What did you "give away" during your Plan A Bob? You gave away parts of yourself that were dragging you into an emotional place that would be inconsistant with eventual recovery. You gave away your old habits and your marital warts.

Did you give away your dignity?
Did you give away your integrity?
Did you give away your promise to remain faithful in good times and in bad?
Did you give away your resolve not to accept infidelity as a marriage norm?

I don't think you gave any of these things away.

About me...

My integrity ... in my world.... means I am married to a man I can look at with genuine respect in my eyes. To be married to a man I think is a coward, a liar, a sneak, a cheat ... it is not going to happen. I need to admire my husband. And if he was not willing to behave in an admirable fashon ... it would never work for me.

Like someone else said... you need to understand yourself... and know your boundaries, know your weaknesses... and decide how much your life is worth.

Pep

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Now, imagine your marriage today if OM's son had not died tragically and OM had not put the kabosh on the affair himself... imagine where you might be without that event. Can you see it?

Then what? What would your next move be if the affair had not been killed by a random tragedy?

Pep, an interesting question, and one that , natch', I have asked a lot.

I do not believe that the death of OMs estranged son affected him and the affair in quite the way you might think Pep ( although I KNOW you understand the complexities of this stuff better than MOST ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

Understand that OM has a string of children that he never saw once he left their mothers. After he divorced his second wife ( Dead son's mother) he deliberately gave up paid employment so he would not be liable for so much or ANY child support payments. He has remained deliberately unemployed save for 'cash in hand' sport payments and petty crime ever since.

His A with Squid was just business as usual for OM. His every other relationship had been strewn with infidelity and when one came along that offered a better deal than his present W or GF he went with them.

When his current GF came along 14 years ago she was far stronger and smarter than her predecessors had been it seems. She refused OMs proposals of M saying "M means nothing to you, lets see how you behave without the signed paper to hide behind".

She really does seem to have tamed him somewhat - 14 years together is a real record for OMs relationships by ten whole years ( he is 53). Now because for the first time OM was around for long enough to properly connect with a child, AND had a lot of time on his hands owing to his CSA-avoiding non-work status he and his youngest son became very close.

In January this year OM GF got offered a very senior job running a cancer centre. They discussed it and she took it. It took her away from home and OM for many stressful hours.

OM threw himself into his sport to fill the spare time he had. Squid has chosen to do the same ...what happened next is predctable and historical...

SO OM was testing Squid to see if she was a better bet than his GF. It was clear early on that she wasn't ( not employed y'see) but that didn't stop him plying for flattery and sex form her. And Squid delighted to give it for the same reasons I guess.

After I busted the affair, and had exposed to OM GF, OM decided it was all a bit risky so backed off while keeping Squid on a line just in case the fuss died down while he flattered hs GF with camp remorse. Remeber he had weathered a very many situation like this over the years. It was likely not as hard for him then as for many or most WS.
Then his son died. OM GF tells me that initilly he really wasn't that bothered, more concerned about the inconvenience of the timing !!! HE even asked OM GF to choose a card for him to send !

Later that day he answered the phone to his XW and they talked for the first time in many years and OM realised he knew NOTHING AT ALL about the son he lost. Was he a nice man? An angry Man? Good at sport? A poet ? Married ? Gay ?

NOTHING. nineteen years of the 21 his dead son spent on this planet were a blank to OM. This hit him like a battering ram. He knew nothing of the children he sired then estranged over the years and that his wayward behaviour was the cause.

OM GF says he retched and dry vomited and sobbed all that night afterwards not because he was bereaved but because he did NOT feel bereaved.

OM GF spoke to him calmly and said there was every chance that he would leave THEIR young son behind in the same way. History repeats iteself.

He was scared at that and seemingly the realisation of what he had become and what he was risking hit him. Thats when OM GF asked me for proof of PA.

That arrived just after OM GF found some novelty 'sex' dice in OMs black suit pocket that Squid had bought for him to use at their second and final "meeting"....and OMs self serving world of lies and bull came crashing down in his GFs betayed tears.

They went to the funeral and stayed for a few days where OM was a zombie. He met a son and a daughter he had not seen since he abandoned them. (his XWs kept their children in touch).

He got home a briefly considered suicide. At THAT low point Squid phoned him after three weeks NC to see 'where she stood'. She and I had recovered to apoint where were were civil and she was starting to feel specks of 'romantic love' for me ( she says ).

You can imagine the spite of his reponse. He asked OM GF to help him get counselling as he could feel himself breaking. He joined relationship counselling and also bereavement counselling. Still in both of those.

Soon afterwards his Mother was close to death from cancer. OM visited and she told him how disappointed she had been in his wayward treatment of people who loved him over the years and that she hoped he would change with her passing....

So you can see why OM is uber-dark, but why I must never let my guard down completely.
You can also see that OMs sons tragic death affected the sitiation is a bizarre and unexpected way.

Anyway....thats a story I needed to write for a while now.

If OM had not woken up to his moral decrepitude over his son's death, I would have destroyed him with all the authorities he is involved with, then last resort threatened him physically to stay dark.

Squid and OM had every chance to live with each other if they so chose, but neither did. OM didn;t want to work, and Squid was also out of paid employment as a SAHM. It would never work for OM if he needed to work.

I asked why squid didn;t leave she said " I could never convince myself I didn't love you enough to leave". Not sure I understand that but SURELY the life she would lose to live with that wastrel must have been a big part of her choice.

So I dunno pep.

And yes the patient negoiated approach was 110% coached by you, by K, bt Mel, by Ark and others. And its still working well for now.

And I am very proud that I have given up nothing that I value yet have had to OPPORTUNITY to release stuff that were personality inhibitors without pride preventing me.

Conflict avoidance for example. I offer a POJA opportunity for everything now, rather than choking down issue still burst then back down in guilt afterwards. I/we are still learning POJA but its already a magnificent relationship tool, and not just for the big stuff.

Have I ever said thanks Pep ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Interestingly...My Plan A & exposure was the catalyst for OM to realise his personality problems and get help.

Those BS who use 'moral rectitude' as an excuse for not exposing take heed. Exposure has certainly helped OM and his GF restart their lives.

<small>[ December 03, 2004, 03:53 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

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Bump for Vnus.

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I suspected for some time, and now do believe, that a situation like mine calls for a short plan A.

After my WW began her EA, she confessed and tried to stay with me. But she quickly folded under the strain of withdrawal and left me. Having done a good plan A for a month with her at home, I went into a from-a-distance plan A, which continued for five months before I made the plan B break.

I don't regret my choices, but the fact is, I recognized and started working on my own bad habits immediately. Quickly enough that my wife had a month to see it.

If I had it to do again, I would go to plan B, or maybe even plan D, the day she walked out. "If you're going to leave, then don't come back."

I guess this isn't about giving things away, but I believe that a lengthy plan A for a man whose wife leaves to have her affair is not ideal. And I figured I'd take this opportunity to bring it up.

Somehow... inarticulate... today. Need more coffee.

GC

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What about the WW that talks of leaving but continues to stay, What about the ww that is really putting in every affort to have no contact. She still has not sent the nc letter, More because I have not really mentioned since that day two weeks ago.

My Plan A is taking me to May 1st.

And if she is still in the fog but with nc do I go to Plan B or stick with Plan A or recovery?

If my wife would leave, I would go to PLan B but only for six months afterwards I would Let her pay for the D, I have better things to do with my money then pay for her false happiness..

Any thoughts

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Michael, that's a textbook plan-A-for-a-good-stretch situation you've got there.

GC

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