</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by confused&scared:
<strong> Lemonman
see below for a direst quote from he man himself taken from the question and answer section of this website. I knew I had read this here, just took me a while to find it.


"One of the most remarkable discoveries of my career as a marriage counselor is that marriages can thrive after infidelity. I would never have guessed it, based on my own reactions. My wife, Joyce, let me know early on that if I ever had an affair, she would not divorce me, she would KILL me (maybe that's why I have taken such extraordinary precautions to avoid it). My own reaction to an affair by Joyce would be as drastic. But I wouldn't kill her, I'd just never see or talk to her again."


So as you can see, Pep's views do fit with MB. Take a read of the question and answer section. Even the great man himself has similar feelings to most of us. However, he offers the tool that he has had sucess in helping people recover for those who wish to use them.

C&S </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you for this post. It was enlightening for me. Harley is a wise man. I give the guy credit. HE has made a terrific living ouf of offering advice and plans to thousands of people to recover their marriages, YET He would not follow his own advice. KInd of peculiar..........BUT not really. YOU see tons of doctors give medical advice to patients, yet they smoke and drink and eat like $hit...so it is not suprising. I am not intimating that Harley is doing this by the way...I do not want to get slammed for offending Harley on here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by papermom:
<strong> Is it a threadjack if I ask another question here?

I'm seeing SH referred to as a near-God in many threads, and I wonder (I actually think I'm hoping) he is embarrassed by that. No doubt he has helped many individuals to grow and many marriages to thrive. I would call him myself if I could afford it. But, really, isn't it going a bit overboard to canonize him?

Just a thought,
PM </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YEP......but you and I may get lynched here for this, so lets cool it.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Sure he has made a lot of money. I guess when you think about it this is his occupation and just as you earn a living in medicine, he earns his by counseling. You've got to put bread on the table.

However I don't see it like that. I see it as although he is clearly stating that maybe it would not be for him, that marriages can be saved. And lets face it, if people are going to a counselor to get help to recover from infidelity, then his role is to do that to the best of his ability. And he has had a lot of success. Read his profile. The link is at the left hand of the top of the pagr under the MB logo.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by confused&scared:
<strong> Sure he has made a lot of money. I guess when you think about it this is his occupation and just as you earn a living in medicine, he earns his by counseling. You've got to put bread on the table.

However I don't see it like that. I see it as although he is clearly stating that maybe it would not be for him, that marriages can be saved. And lets face it, if people are going to a counselor to get help to recover from infidelity, then his role is to do that to the best of his ability. And he has had a lot of success. Read his profile. The link is at the left hand of the top of the pagr under the MB logo. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't really begrudge the guy. I really don't. I think it is great that the guy has a marriage recovery plan that has worked for many people. IN the end, isn't that what matters. Some of the stuff I say is sarcasstic about him, just becasue sometimes the guy is cannonized around here...and I just find it ironic that he would not EVEN follow his own advice. THis is HIS site after all, and I know I need to remember that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I was completely confused and had absolutely no direction before I found this site. The fact that it can be such a huge help for people during what is for many the most traumatic time of there lives may lead some to go a bit overboard with there praise.

I started counseling with SH early on in my wife's A. It was amazingly helpful to me. Time and time again he would advise me and he would tell me what my W reaction would be to the things I would do. Time and time again I would think, "He's wrong about this" or "There's no way she is going to react that way". Every time he was right. I mean EVERY time. After a while I quit questioning and when I look back on it I feel very good about nearly every decision I made through the process. I garuantee I would be thinking differently if I had tried it all on my own.

Papermom ... SH is not W. Harley who wrote HNHN. I consoled w/ SH and I thought he was a sadistic man that let me stayed in plan A. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . I am glad I did plan A/B even I ended up in Dv.

lemonman ... each person should do self reflection. You are the one who will live in the decision you make. If I have no mistake in my M, doing all 4 gifts of love and my W still make choice to have an A ... I would not do plan A/B either. I did plan A/B such that I have no regret looking back 10 years from now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . If you want to opt out, you have to earn it.

-rh-

LM.

One thing you will find here is that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. What others think of that opinion will also vary and that just adds to the spice of life Of course when that opinion just gets plain stupid it is like overkill on the spices (ie: trolls from the ow board,etc.).

As for Steve, Jennifer, Cerri or even Dr. W. Harley, they can take the heat. After all you should see some one the conditions those WS and BS come to them in. LOL!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Do their principals work for all? In most respects yes. When it doesn't you will find that the resister has to work very hard to be ugly in the face of sincere help.

Just like when an OW/OP troll posts here from the other forum.....oh sure they try but most go back with something learned (more than when we go there) and even if they won't admit it, you can see they have bettered themselves if even for a moment (remember the fog).

My WS did not like Steve on our 1st and only session, yet he is the one who took up most of our session which ran just over an hour. I had less than 10 minutes with Steve.

Also we don't always agree with the every detail of the Harley concept but the general one is quite reasonable.

What confuses many is the interpretation of plans A and B. It isn't hard to understand just hard to implement. Somewhere between reading and implementing the translation gets lost and the BS turns into some sort of putty person willing to abosrb the blows of the WS when they s/b absorbing the blows of their spouse not the WS.

IMHO, when the identity of the WS/spouse becomes blurred, it makes it difficult for the BS/spouse to know which one to treat which way, hence the confusion. The WS are skilled at turning their personalities off and on (even in the fog). The BS are not prepared for multiple personalities and sudden switches.

In response to question from the thread: The BS shoud NEVER take a WS back. Only an Xws or recovered spouse.


JMHO,
L.

<small>[ December 07, 2004, 02:08 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Orchid,

Could you please expand on the multiple personality, the WS/S theory. How do you tell which one is there and how do you bring the S out and not the WS?

Thanks, Native

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by native00:
<strong> Orchid,

Could you please expand on the multiple personality, the WS/S theory. How do you tell which one is there and how do you bring the S out and not the WS?

Thanks, Native </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi Native,

You ask a good question. It s/b quite simple. Let's see.

List out your spouses personality, esp his/her good traits/characteristics vs the WS' attitude.

Ex:

Spouse - Friendly, outgoing, good natured, patient, kind, generous, etc.

WS: angry, withdrawn, hostile, impatient, rude, vulgar, stingy, etc.

What you watch for is when the Spouse type attitudes show up. Plan A recommends you commend those but stay away from the WS attitudes.

In plan A the BS basically withdraws from the WS' attitude and rewards the Spouse attitude. But many miss this point and feel they have to be nice to the WS. IMHO, I believe to be nice to the spouse not the WS. It is critical to identify your boundaries and enforce them on the WS. Even in plan A.

In plan B the BS withdraws completely (minor excpetions where children or mandatory contact is needed). This is irregardless of the Ws or spouse attitudes. This is done to protect the BS not the WS.

The BS can't bring anything out. It is not about control. Under most laws, the spouse is an adult (though acting worse than a child - more like a wild teen). The worse part is that often the law is on the side of the WS (esp if the WS is the wife).

The BS needs to realize that plan A and B does not get or give control of the WS to the BS. That is virtually impossible. What the smart BS will learn is that they can't control the WS only the BS and family. So that is where the BS' energy s/b focused. Making solid and permanent changes in the BS and family irregardless of what the WS does is vital to personal recovery. Then and only when the WS decides to shed the WS skin and morph to an Xws or spouse, then can recovery even be considered.

Those are my thoughts. Hope it helped.

L.

The Bottom line is, HOW MANY OF YOU THOUGHT YOUR SPOUSE WOULD NEVER CHEAT IN THE FIRST PLACE? So to me SH has not found himself in those shoes yet so of course he would respond in that way. Just like all of us.

Pffft..

Just my 2 cents, I'm still a basket case but a basket case full of love for my WW...

With my luck i'll now go to hell in a handbasket...LOL... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mschluter:
<strong> The Bottom line is, HOW MANY OF YOU THOUGHT YOUR SPOUSE WOULD NEVER CHEAT IN THE FIRST PLACE? So to me SH has not found himself in those shoes yet so of course he would respond in that way.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just an FYI. That statement is from the book, "Surviving An Affair" by Dr WIllard Harley, not his son Steve Harley.

I hope I'm not threadjacking if so please let me know someone!!

Orchid,

Good advice on listing out the traits/characteristics of the W vs. the WW. In my sit. it seems like the W is only around when the kids are. If the kids are gone or in bed it's usually the WW that is "home". Also whenever I talk about the M or my needs it's usually the WW, maybe I'm over simplifying here.

It is critical to identify your boundaries and enforce them on the WS. Even in plan A.

One of my boundaries is her not going out all night, then sleeping in and the kids are up getting into everything. Can you explain on how I can enforce that, since we can't control the WW. What I've been trying to do in this instance is to "have someplace to go" early in the morning so that she can't sleep in, at least not as easily if I was still in the house with the kids.

What mattered to me most about any possible recovery and when I talk about "second best" is that what I wanted and needed to see and hear from my WH is HIS turn around,his change in heart and mind that HE wanted to be back in the marriage and family.HIS CHOICE,the choice he makes,not the option left to him if the homewrecker dumped him or the "relationship" failed.

To me,that is not a healthy basis from which to start a recovery if he doesn't want it first.I feel I would be guaranteed a life with a man who pined away for the HW and the life they *could have had.I would never be free from that no matter how hard I tried.It would probably be similar to the idea if the HW died.He would always be romanticizing and what if'ing the rest of his life.Puke.I just could not live with my WH that way.It makes my skin crawl to think about it.

So,in essence,I don't agree that it doesn't matter how the WS gets back to the marriage.If they do make a recovery that is great but it's not something I would consider.

O

<small>[ December 07, 2004, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

I remember reading before that Harley had said if his W had an A he would not want to recover the M. Does it make him a hypocrit? Why?

Lem, as a Dr. if a family made the choice to keep a comatose man alive with machines, would you begrudge them their decision even though you would want to be left to die? Does it make you unable to help this family with their decision?

The choice of whether to recover a M broken by infidelity is a personal choice. I think from this statement by Harley he says he would be unable to recover...personally he has inventoried himself enough to know this. Lem, you have inventoried yourself enough to know this.

Many folks on here, myself included have inventoried ourselves enough to know we want to recover our M given our circumstances.

Which is right? Which is wrong? Who is to say...
Speak for your OWN situation.

As far as canonizing him? Hero worship maybe, treating him much like a spiritual leader/priest/minister is treated. LM, I'd dare say if you gave some profound advice about a surgical technique or decision and someone came on to refute you, you would probably be indignant at the call down because you truly DO know more than they of what you speak. But then when give advice or refute the MB principles and say they just don't work, expect folks to jump because this is not your area of expertise. Think of Dr. Harley as a surgeon deserving of the respect he recieves. He has been at this far longer than you or I, and there are many folks on here to testify their M would be lost if it weren't for these techniques...possibly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by StillHereMakingIt:
<strong> I remember reading before that Harley had said if his W had an A he would not want to recover the M. Does it make him a hypocrit? Why?

Lem, as a Dr. if a family made the choice to keep a comatose man alive with machines, would you begrudge them their decision even though you would want to be left to die? Does it make you unable to help this family with their decision?

The choice of whether to recover a M broken by infidelity is a personal choice. I think from this statement by Harley he says he would be unable to recover...personally he has inventoried himself enough to know this. Lem, you have inventoried yourself enough to know this.

Many folks on here, myself included have inventoried ourselves enough to know we want to recover our M given our circumstances.

Which is right? Which is wrong? Who is to say...
Speak for your OWN situation.

As far as canonizing him? Hero worship maybe, treating him much like a spiritual leader/priest/minister is treated. LM, I'd dare say if you gave some profound advice about a surgical technique or decision and someone came on to refute you, you would probably be indignant at the call down because you truly DO know more than they of what you speak. But then when give advice or refute the MB principles and say they just don't work, expect folks to jump because this is not your area of expertise. Think of Dr. Harley as a surgeon deserving of the respect he recieves. He has been at this far longer than you or I, and there are many folks on here to testify their M would be lost if it weren't for these techniques...possibly. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You make great points and some good "food for thought" for me. I am not BEYOND accepting other views and opinions on this. Yes, I understand that people on here feel they owe their lives to Harley.....good for them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I still will give my opinions, but with the back drop that my philosphical beliefs about all of this vary from what most others here feel. It is all good in the end. I can learn something here, so even if noone can accept my views on this, I can still learn, so from that vantage point, this is a no- lose situation for me staying on this board. Thank you for taking the time to post on this thread. Your comments are truly appreciated.

HE has made a terrific living ouf of offering advice and plans to thousands of people to recover their marriages, YET He would not follow his own advice.
There seems to be a bit of confusion in this statement. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Nowhere does Harley say he would not follow his own advice.
I believe he would follow it, IF he chose to save his marriage. He simply says he would not choose to save his marriage.

His advice is not, “you HAVE to do whatever it takes to save your marriage, regardless of if you want to save the marriage or not”.
It is, “if you choose to try and save it (and these are reasons you should look at to consider it), then this is what you should do (use Marriage Builders).

I remember reading before that Harley had said if his W had an A he would not want to recover the M. Does it make him a hypocrit?
No, it does not make him a hypocrite.
If he said, "You HAVE to try and save your marriage" and then he chose not to do it, that would make him a hypocrite.
But he does not say that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by native00:
<strong> I hope I'm not threadjacking if so please let me know someone!!

Orchid,

Good advice on listing out the traits/characteristics of the W vs. the WW. In my sit. it seems like the W is only around when the kids are. If the kids are gone or in bed it's usually the WW that is "home". Also whenever I talk about the M or my needs it's usually the WW, maybe I'm over simplifying here.

It is critical to identify your boundaries and enforce them on the WS. Even in plan A.

One of my boundaries is her not going out all night, then sleeping in and the kids are up getting into everything. Can you explain on how I can enforce that, since we can't control the WW. What I've been trying to do in this instance is to "have someplace to go" early in the morning so that she can't sleep in, at least not as easily if I was still in the house with the kids. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Native,

Think it w/b best if I put my response on your thread. I will copy your post and answer you there. ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

I definately agree that i would not take my H back or try and reconcile if there was still an A going on... When i caught my H in an EA i chose to stay and work things out..I guess my first reactions were shock, scared, and thinking of the kids.. After 3 mos. into reconcile i found out he still had contact with her for a weeks into our R but finally ended it.. I suspected but he kept swearing he didn't speak to her. so when i found at the truth i was so angry because i felt i was putting this marriage back on false assumptions.. We are having a very slow R and i'll always think that if i had known then he was still having Contact i definately would have walked.. i feel i never had the fair chance to make that decision.. I love my H but sometimes wonder if i really will forgive and move on.. I give all the people credit for being able to fully R because i'm finding it very hard to.. Something is keeping me here working on M but deep down i sometimes feel i'm here for the kids.. I hope our M can work and if not i'm hoping my "gut" will tell me it's time to leave..

Thanks for sharing your story Lemmon Man... I admire the choice you made... Good luck

I definately agree that i would not take my H back or try and reconcile if there was still an A going on
I always chuckle at this statement. Why?
Because the betrayed spouse almost NEVER has the option to take back the ws while an affair is ongoing, yet they make it sound like they could take them back if they wanted to.
Also, if the ws wants to reconcile, the affair is usually over. Sometimes, it's just a matter of the ws & op not really knowing it yet.