Lemonman, and other 'no way'ers',

Something to consider also is the simple fact of the lifespan of an affair. Are you second best just because your ws and the op couldn't maintain the fantasy relationship, and reality took it's toll? I personally say no, it reveals you are actually first choice, that even amongst true reality, where life is hard, your relationship stood a chance to survive, because of the strength of one spouse or the other. We are all weak at times, in many ways, in our marriage...what gives anyone the right to say this is the line (specifically towards first time offenses?).

I don't think I will ever see myself as second best, I don't know why my wife ended her affair, specifically. I didn't ask. I ahve heard hints and stuff, but ultimately, I just look at myself as there, waiting, loving, patiently. I would think that many people out there would look at that with a thought of man, what a person I could have there...is anyone gonna love me more than that?

You mention you don't agree with MB principles, and I have issues with some of them also. What are yours? I personally just believe too much emphasis is placed on one spouse or the other in fulfilling needs. We can never fulfill enough needs to make ourselves safe. It takes personal discipline on the other spouse to simply choose the marriage and what is right, and realizing that times get good and times get bad. I believe more focus should be placed vertically, and our relationship with Christ should be emphasized, and thus, our relationship with our spouse will also be in harmony, essentially.

What say you?

Hey Lem, I'm sorry if I've implied I don't want you to post. I think your posts, in general, are another viewpoint that needs to be stated. Synergistically, the more advice/opinions/points of view, the better a decision one can make. It's the posts that make sweeping generalization about "most people on here" or discrediting Harley or his principles. It would be a bit like me walking into your hospital and saying, "Well, if you want to follow his advice you can, but personally I wouldn't do it that way and I think anyone who does it this way is not realistic..." Sure, you can state your disagreement, but then it sounds like you are slamming people for following this site. But it's just me...As I've said before, something I have to work on...

Lemon:

Interesting question! My wife deals with this even more than I do. My FWW thinks that I am planning to divorce her. It does not matter that I am 100% committed to save the marriage she feels that in the end something will go wrong and I will leave her. In summary she now feels she is 2nd best for me because she was unfaithful. She tells me that I did not leave her because of the children, my age, and that I am too lazy to go through all the turn-moil of a divorce. So there you have it------- A FWW who feels she is 2nd choice.

As for myself I also feel 2nd choice even though OM was dumped on D-day instantly and that my wife NEVER PLANNED to leave the marriage during the affair. Nevertheless I also feel 2nd choice because there is one thing OM has that I do not have. That thing is NEW! I cannot be a NEW man for her. I will always be the same man she knew from day one. That NEW is highly significant. That NEW is an aphrodisiac for many WWs. So in the end is a no-win situation.

So now we think we are not good enough for each other.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong> HE has made a terrific living ouf of offering advice and plans to thousands of people to recover their marriages, YET He would not follow his own advice.
There seems to be a bit of confusion in this statement. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Nowhere does Harley say he would not follow his own advice.
I believe he would follow it, IF he chose to save his marriage. He simply says he would not choose to save his marriage.

His advice is not, “you HAVE to do whatever it takes to save your marriage, regardless of if you want to save the marriage or not”.
It is, “if you choose to try and save it (and these are reasons you should look at to consider it), then this is what you should do (use Marriage Builders). </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But don't most people who've never experienced infidelity say that? I know I did! I was of the school, "hey cheat on ME and your outta here." No if's, and's, or but's, and I meant it. But when it DID happen it completely rocked my world, made me step back and look at the big picture, and even though I did kick him out, I did want to try to recover my marriage, once the shock wore off. I also no longer speak in "absolutes".

I find it hard to believe Harley wouldn't *want* to recover. Even he can't truly know how'd he react until it happens. Even though he has many years of expertise in this area, his statement just sounds like someone who hasn't walked a mile, kwim? Hey, even "black and white" Lemon gave it a shot <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I will give my 2cents...

You could call me the "default" choice. The OW in my case dumped, or basically stopped all contact with my husband. He never ended it with her, she ended it with him.

My situation was a little different in that - my husband's affair had been over for 6 months before I was told.

Hindsight being 50/50...if I had found out about the affair while it was going on, or had found out while my WS was going through withdrawl and giving me craploads of fogtalk, I would have never put up with feeling like second choice through all of it. I would have taken the kids and left.

You should understand that sometimes we BS aren't given a choice. In fact the one aspect of this whole situation I was most angry about, was not having the truth so I could make my own choices.

Everthing that is posted about the symptoms of the WS are so true its like they've been given the same script. Only I never realized his "rewriting history", "fogtalk", "withdrawl", and distance from me had anything to do with an affair....I really thought it was me and at times I thought there was something psychologically wrong with him.

Looking back and seeing things for what they really were....I realize all those months of tears and weird daunting conversations, was his guilty conscience coupled with extreme withdrawl.

I applaud all BS that can handle the withdrawl of a WS, however I wouldn't of made it through. In fact we would probably be divorced right now.

However, because of the circumstances (we separated for 4 months last spring), and lucky for him he told me when he was over the affair and ready to feel remorsful and fully committed.

We each are different....and we each can tolerate this heartbreaking and devastating experience to different degrees...

Not to mention many BS have children involved who don't deserve this and don't deserve a split family either. This can sometimes play a huge factor.

FYI...in case you are wondering how I didn't know for so long...

- brand new baby
- new secretary at work that was never mentioned
- he went to her house for lunch (ok, not lunch really)
- he was always home at night
- no new numbers
- no going out

In a nut shell my husband was very careful because he didn't want to lose his job. He would follow her to her apt... I still wonder what kind of a woman takes someones leftover's. I mean he never bought her one gift nor took her out. It was a quickie at lunch and conversations via yahoo messenger. I would never risk all that I love and cherish for that.

But we learn to forgive someone that does, because marriages have a profound meaning, and when you finally get past some of the saddess and heartbreak, we see a deeper meaning in the person we married.

Rachel

Hmm,

I don't really see anything contradictory here.

SHs specialty originally was drug and alcohol addiction..and thus he put two and two together re the commonalities of drug addiction and affairs.

While he himself has never been through an A..I'm guessing that he also did not have to be an addict to study the field, nor does he have to commit to an addicted spouse to be accurate in his observations.

SH has never advocated marriage recovery that I am aware of..he has simply said IF you wish to attempt this ..the best odds for success are acting in accordance with human nature in general [LBs DJs etc] and addiction specifically. I seem to recall that in the case of OC he even advises that the best course of action is probably divorce..nonetheless..for those who WANT to try and work around it he will help with setting up the structure.

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong>SHs specialty originally was drug and alcohol addiction..and thus he put two and two together re the commonalities of drug addiction and affairs.
Noodle </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, Dr. Willard Harley was the one who did all the work with drug & alcohol clinics. He is the one who came up with Marriage Builders.
Dr. Harley is Steve's father.
(not to take anything away from Steve (SH). He knows his stuff too)

Chris
When you said that the statement was from the book, did you mean my original post with the quote? If so, just want to let you know that I did a cut and paste from the questiion and answers section on this site.
C&S

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by confused&scared:
<strong> Chris
When you said that the statement was from the book, did you mean my original post with the quote? If so, just want to let you know that I did a cut and paste from the questiion and answers section on this site.
C&S </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I actually meant that the statement about not reconciling was from Dr. Willard Harley, NOT Steve Harley.
I don't believe I've ever heard of Steve saying that.

Thanks for clarifying. I did not say it came from S Harley either. I simply said the owner of this site or something. However, I do see where later confusion over S versus W crept in.
Thanks.

LM, I might have somewhat answered this in my post to you on the other thread, but I'll add a few more things.

My H didn't get dumped, however he did leave the OW in the in-love state. I guess I should ask him now why he came back. My assumption of what brought him back didn't have too much to do with me. OW could make him forget he had ever loved me, but the one thing she couldn't do is make him forget his 2 teenage sons. He knew if he didn't end it our boys were going to know the truth and he was going to tell them. He also loves my family and I never told them. I would have if he didn't get his sh** together. He always had been a man of integrity and the realization that what he had done would be out there was hard for him I believe. Plus, people like me, which would have made it worse I'm sure. We were also fortunate that no one told him that he should follow his heart and leave me because he had found true love. Not our MC, not his previous IC, not his current IC, and not the few people who knew. Just the OW. Finally he was smart enough in his fog to do some reading and listen to the therapists enough to realize the stats don't support As. He knew what kind of person he had with me, but had to acknowledge her deceitfulness. And maybe, somewhere in there he realized he loved me. I kept asking him when I was sick of his withdrawal if he could picture his future life without me. He never could picture it.

For myself I knew in the long run I could never settle for being second best. I guess I hung in there long enough to see the person I used to know emerge. If I would have waited for him to definitely have the feelings for me come back first, I doubt we'd be here now. I can tell you I wouldn't have waited around forever. I'm still not sure he's totally back, but I'm pretty sure he's not fantasizing about her. My shrink says it will take time for him to get reintegrated into the M. I am cautiously optimistic.

There are a few things that help me look at As as addictions. And if As are addictions, the WS isn't just going to get over it overnight, or realize their love immediately. Maybe some do. I remember my H's dead, lyin' eyes. He never lied to me before. It was like someone on crack. I don't see those eyes now. I'm amazed how he thought he found the perfect R, and now he hates even thinking about her. Anyway, I'm babbling now. Sorry! CV

Lemon...when you first posted this question you are very sure that YOU will NEVER take WS back. I am wondering after reading all the replies to your post...Are you still very sure YOU wont take YOUR WS back? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I realise one thing about BS...we have our own cloud of fog...you wont see the light until your own fog clear up. The fog that is surrounding us is anger and hurt.

I am glad that I am not the only one out there that could not stand the thought of a false recovery. My ws committed right from d-day to nc and staying in our marriage. If he had walked out the door on d-day I could never have taken him back. As it stands, I could never stomach even one breach of nc and I have told my ws this. It may be a breach of mb concepts but at some point we all have to have love ourselves and take care of our own en's as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zizzycool:
<strong> Lemon...when you first posted this question you are very sure that YOU will NEVER take WS back. I am wondering after reading all the replies to your post...Are you still very sure YOU wont take YOUR WS back? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I realise one thing about BS...we have our own cloud of fog...you wont see the light until your own fog clear up. The fog that is surrounding us is anger and hurt. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I am 100% SURE that I would never take my WS back (despite reading the replies) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . I can appreciate many of you guys/girls who can't fathom NOT taking back a WS, but we will all have to agree to disagree. Like I said countless other times, my love for my wife died that fateful May night.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by slacker1975:
<strong> I am glad that I am not the only one out there that could not stand the thought of a false recovery. My ws committed right from d-day to nc and staying in our marriage. If he had walked out the door on d-day I could never have taken him back. As it stands, I could never stomach even one breach of nc and I have told my ws this. It may be a breach of mb concepts but at some point we all have to have love ourselves and take care of our own en's as well. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> - Reading this post is like seeing an old friend at a large cocktail party where you know NOONE.

Hey Lemonman,

Aren't you the one who posted a couple of months back that you knew you would NEVER cheat on your spouse? As I recall some people couldn't accept your certainty then - and now some people can't accept your certainty about taking your WS back. Why is that? (Rhetorical question, don't worry - you don't have to answer it).

I didn't post to you back then, but now wish I had. Because I agreed with you then, and agree with you now. I know I would not cheat on my spouse too - and I know I would not tolerate cheating either. Perhaps it is a character flaw in me to not forgive this, perhaps not - but I see no reason any of us should HAVE to accept such disrespectful treatment.

I will never forget when my first husband admitted his affair (we were well on the way to the D at that point). I lost all respect for him in that instant - even though I knew I had no interest in reconciling, at that moment I also knew I would NEVER maintain contact with him either. So, I can easily understand how you could have lost all your remaining love in that instant as well. For me, it doesn't matter whether someone is an intimate partner or a close "friend" - I expect to be treated honestly and respectfully, and I see no reason to apologize for it.

I would have to have a brain tumor or something that made me incompetent before I would violate my principles in this regard. I have been criticized for giving people too many chances in life - and perhaps I do for other things - but I draw the line at infidelity (for either me or my partner.) This was a very deliberate decision I made a long time ago when I was still quite young, and it was based on personal experiences. So, I know that for all these years, from all the pain and suffering I and others close to me have experienced from infidelity, that this is the one thing nobody should ever do to another.

So stick to your guns on this. Not that my saying so will matter - you obviously can hold your own in this discussion. But I wish it were more acceptable on this forum for people to just say they can't accept certain behaviors. Not everything is worth fixing and not all problems are equally forgiveable. We all have our "hills to die on" as someone here said awhile back. We may not all stake out the same hills, but all our hills ARE created equal.

Cheers! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Dejavu:

Thanks for your post above.

Deja Vu:

Like you I always said an affair would not be tolerated. On D-day I told my wife that she had done the unthinkable and that the marriage was over------- for me there was no other choice. However, I felt that my world ended since the marriage had been quite good for 30 years.

Then 16 hours later I swallowed my pride and told my wife I would try to stay married to her. OM got dumped instantly and my wife has tried real hard to work on the marriage. She even made love to me 24/7 while in the firsts four weeks of withdrawal. To this day I am not sure how she pulled that one. I believe she truly has ended everything with OM and wants the marriage badly. So I guess one can never say never.

Another reason to reconsider my decision to divorce was that I simply could not visualize my WW trying to have a relationship with OM in broad daylight. All it took was to imagine the pain in my children to reconsider my decision. In a strange way I was also sure that if my wife tried to have a relationship with OM she would have ended a VERY unhappy woman. I loved my wife so much that I wanted to save her from the horror of actually living with OM------ not for my sake, but hers.

Trying to heal after infidelity is no piece of cake. It has been six months and I am 90% better, however, the event is in my head most of the time.

My wife is very loving and the only problem I have is that I still desire SF 24/7. OTOH, she would rather have SF at a pace more appropriate for my age (I am 54). We are communicating more and I have slowed down and she has speed up a little. I also realize that is impractical for a 54 y/o man to desire SF daily with a wife of 31 years. Affairs do crazy things to our brain chemistry. I must still be in my own BH fog. If I don't have SF regularly I get depressed--- that is the bottom line.

BTW, if my wife falls of the wagon I am a goner. This is something we have discussed and she admits she would deserve my disdain if she re-starts any contact with OM.


However, I still feel like 2nd choice even though can I see why my wife or any other woman would choose me over the OM.

<small>[ December 08, 2004, 07:48 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

LM I know you don't believe in Affair-induced irrationality ( fog) but I do having seen it manifested in my Squid.

Having studied affair dynamics then witnessed the 'sympoms' first hand I decided that it would be an unwise thing to take any permanent decision regarding something as important as recovery or divorce while at least one of us was potty and irrational.

Thats why I 'plan A'ed. I wnated to end teh affair and give Squid somewhere safe to withdraw to so we could see what we were left with after the firestorm.

We were left with unmet ENs on both sides, contribution to a poor marriage from both sides but devastating infidelity only on her side.

I chose to work with Squid on rebuilding our M but I have not yet 'taken her back'.

That phrase to me means to have accepted once againas a perpetual par of my life everything she is. I have not done that. I have changed to meet her needs,she must do the same and more and she has only just started that process.
It may be in a year that I decide we cannot be successful together and I propose a divorce, I dunno.

I HOPE not but I will not die if such happens.

So my decisions to weather the fog storm with plan A, ehlp end teh A with exposure/Plan A and to start recovery were completely rational IMO.

No pride or self-respect sacrificed. In fact I am prouder of my behaviour these months than I have been of anything I have ever done in my life. I never knew I could be so brave and strong.

I will always have that even if Squid and I don;t make it.

I hope that states my position on BS 'taking back' the Ws.

BTW if we had no kids I'd have divorced her starting D-day.

Lets be honest here.

Bob, ditto on the D if there weren't any kids.