2long, I will disagree with NOTHING that you have said. In fact, as to this comment: "This all seems so simple. He knows his current path choice is hurtful 2 you. That should be enough signal for a man of integrity 2 step back from the hearth and cogitate a moment." I could not agree more fully. In fact, I would think (hope, expect) that in the same sitch, I would follow what you said and step back and cogitate.

However, he is not you nor I. BELIEVE me, I have presented my thoughts/opinions/beliefs/feelings on this matter, I'm sure well over thousands of times. His counselor really believes that he needs to discover this for himself ~ that this supercedes our M right now, these circumstances. Do I agree? No. H won't go see another IC, though. I can't make him stop seeing him, or see another.

So, instead of piling a separation/D trauma on top of what is already here, I am simply choosing to wait. I am no longer going to the counseling sessions, as I do not feel I am being represented, and I do not agree with the processes being used. That is all I can do is control me, remove myself. We spend all sessions long with me arguing my case. I would rather H gets in there, and tries to figure some of this out for himself. I already know where I stand, I am very clear on what I want in a M/partnership.

And this is my dilemma. I don't agree, it tears me up because I think he is going to destroy what he has trying to get at something he isn't even sure he wants. BUT, these are his decisions/choices to make. If he chooses to take my feelings into account is his decision to make. And his decisions ultimately affect how I feel about him.

He may figure out in 3 months, or 1 year, that he only wants to be with me. At that time, after all the waffling, mind-changing, and pain ~ I might just be at a point where I have to say, "Too little, too late, Bub."

I wish I had a crystal ball, but I don't. I am just trying to not freak out and make this mess even bigger. And it is very hard to hold this space, and even harder when people play into my ego with blame and anger and righteousness. Because believe me, I have enough of all of that to go around for everyone. Just because I don't always post about it, doesn't mean I'm over here like some doormat, or Budist Monk, just happily accepting whatever H decides to do with his life. Most days, it is all I can do to not pack up his stuff and start filling out papers.

Thanks for posting.

Spidey

Spidey

You're inability or refusal to establish clear boundaries on your self worth with his moronic needs....

is NOT doing nothing..
it is accepting
condoning
and
accomadating as pep put it yesterday..
marital terrorism...

as if your actions can or would MAKE this mess bigger..
it is HIS ACTIONS
HIS CHOICES
that are the root of this chaos...not your response to it...

you should be in plan B spidey...
this man is taking you down....hard and fast....

ARK

I come to these threads from the darndest places. In this case, well, it's been quite a journey.

Speaking of journeys... Spidey, it's a dark journey you're on. One that I've been on. One that Pepp's been on, too.

Here's something really important that you said. (I'm paraphrasing.)

You may decide, after he's done with his exploring, that you no longer want to be married to him.

How does that uphold your own responsibility to protect not just yourself, but also to protect your marriage?

You know I support you. You know I've been where you are. And you know that I hope for the best, most glorious outcome imaginable. There are no easy choices when you're presented with something like this. Sometimes a wait-and-see is all you can do.

I would ask, though, that in each moment you do everything you can to learn, to grow, to understand, and to excel. Though you will certainly still make mistakes, one thing that gets me through bad nights is knowing that I did my absolute best all the way through. I made huge mistakes and I recognize those -- and I know that I hadn't learned enough to do any better at that time.

Spidey...

Wow...... (that wasn't a regular old "wow" - lots of thought went into that "wow." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />)

I just want you to know, for whatever it's worth, that there's a part of me that understands completely (as best I can) what you're doing/not doing, and why. I really do.

Some random thoughts.... random, because I have LOTS of them, so I have to pick a few...

It's a fact that this is hurting you to the core. It's changing you.
You won't know until quite some time from now what the "damage" is -- and how bad it is -- regardless of how this pans out. It's impossible for you to know right now.

Spidey, I'm glad I tried to save my M. (and I'm glad I had you to help me, even though I didn't always listen to you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> :-)) But having had a lot of time to think... I wish I got out sooner.
I wish I didn't let myself be beaten down for so long. It changed me. I'm recovering, and I'll recover completely...
but... one thing I've learned since The Nightmare, is that I was pretty much an OK guy before my W's A (yes, I've had to learn it all over again, and it's been a really miserable trip.) I've learned that my M was, in so many ways, toxic to me.
Make no mistake.... for 23 years, I would've died for her.
And all that time, she was slowly killing me... destroying my spirit. How? By taking and taking and taking... and not knowing how to give. That's a summary of the whole thing, said in a nice way...
I don't really blame her -- she's who she is, always was, and always will be. And I let it happen, because of my own fears and hangups and insecurities.

And now, as I stare at FIFTY-years-old right between the eyes (I'm 46, so they say), my biggest regret is that (long ago) I didn't believe in myself enough to come to grips with the simple fact:

This Isn't How It's Supposed To Be.

(You told me a long time ago... I think it was when I had "given up" and I was just concentrating on the logistics of Plan F (:-))... that there was something I had to learn. Remember? And I remember thinking "Whaddyamean I have something to learn?!?! My W blew up our M with a cheap, sleazy A... what do *I* have to learn?!?!?" But you were right... I did have something to learn.)

So back to you, and that spirit thing... and how you're being hurt to the core.......

Wondering out loud... you have enough SPIRIT for TEN people -- does that mean you have some to spare? Or does that make you more vulnerable to being hurt... 10 times as much?

Spidey, your thought process -- weighing all the options, wondering, hoping, trying your damndest to turn this around -- what will be the magic bullet that makes you decide to stay in the M?

Spidey - I think you should listen to what everyone here says and then do what you need to do. I waited 3 years, while WH trampled my spirit. The one thing it did for me is to make me CERTAIN that I'm done with him. I will never look back and wonder if I could have done more. I gave it my all, and that is very comforting to me.

Another thought. (not judging you here at all, Spidey, I promise)

From what you've said, your H seems to have a seriously out-of-whack sense of entitlement.
But/or, maybe it's "permission" from you(?) (which is more in line with what you've said your M.O. has been)
The former (entitlement) is Not Good News, and doesn't bode well for... anything...
The latter (taking advantage of...) ain't so good either, but I think it's a different issue.

Just wanted to say that.

ps. Stay strong, Ms. Slayer... ok???

Somebody once said that "You teach people how to treat you."

If you sit by and put up no boundaries against your own husband's decision to "explore other opposite-sex relationships," you are teaching him that you will tolerate this quietly and it's okay with you if he does this.

So why shouldn't he?

Ark is right. You are NOT "doing nothing." You are enabling this situation by refusing to stand up against emotional abuse and emotional neglect and the full-blown abuse of your marriage contract.

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."
Mulan

Thanks everyone for your replies. ark, good to see you again. I hope all is well for you. Thanks for your thoughts. I take all opinions into consideration, but the decision(s) are mine alone, as I'm the one who must live with them.

JustJ, thanks for popping in here on this "remote" thead. I am attempting, most days, to do what you are talking about, insofar as learning and growing and becoming more. This is a very dark path I am on, and it is a struggle for me, almost each day. Sometimes I can get in a good spot, for 2 or 3 days, and know that nothing can harm me, that I am whole by myself. And just as quickly I can spiral out of that space and feel like a child: "I want what I want, and I want it now!!!"

I really think Plan B will not "snap" H out of what he is going through right now. I think it would pile a whole lot of other issues on top of what is already there right now. Plus, being apart, makes it much harder to stay connected and work on our M. Because that is what we are doing. Him and his co-worker are friends, that is where their feelings have netted out for now. But even if they hadn't, this is the path my H has decided "resonnates" with him right now. Does that mean anything will ever come of it? No.

believer, that is what I think I am doing right now, doing everything I can so that I have no regrets. And just as you, we all must make these decisions the best we can. It is so easy to look back with our 20/20 vision, and realize that we should have done things differently. But all we can do in the Now is use all our mind and heart and spirit and experience and knowledge and wisdom to get through each challenge that comes up.

Honestly, this is how my H has felt for a long time, he is just now being honest enough with himself and me to get it in the open. And this is what I have asked for all along ~ "Just be honest with me." And he is. It is not what I want to hear, certainly, but I would rather go through this knowing what is going on, then in the dark like last time, thinking I was losing my mind.

My H is not dating anyone, asking to sleep with anyone, telling anyone he loves them (except me). I still have my committed, monogomous relationship. My H is just saying that he doesn't know if he can commit to that for the rest of his life. And perhaps that is in principle only, perhaps he just ends up saying, "I reserve the right to feel what I feel, and discuss that openly and honestly." Perhaps one day I will be asked something I cannot abide by, and at that time we will make our decision to split.

But if I split now, I will be doing so based on a FEAR of something that has not come to fruition ~ may never come to fruition. And, I still love this guy.

tqt, thanks for posting. This is all so challenging for me. In one way, I feel like I am being dragged through the mud, but in another way I feel like I am the one dragging myself through the mud, by becoming so worked up about stuff that hasn't even happened, and may never happen. And if it does, I can get worked up then and do what I need to do. I don't believe anyone can harm be but myself. Ultimately, I truly do believe that. I believe that if I go through this now, and it still doesn't work out, I will be the better for going through it. Just like I was the better after my H's A.

Thanks for all your caring concern. I trust that each of you is doing what you know in my best interest, and that warms my heart. We have been reading Passionate Marriage and Conscious Loving, which are actually quite similar, though by different authors and using different languages. And both talk about the stangle-hold that possessiveness can have on a M, also known as attachment. "You are mine, I am yours." Both books say that the less there is of that between partners, the closer those partners are actually able to be. Perhaps this is my lesson.

Spidey

Mulan, thanks for posting. I know we do not see eye-to-eye on this subject, but I know you are a great lady, and I really like you. To be honest, I don't want to "teach" my H how to treat me. He is a grown man, and he needs to make those decisions for himself. If his treatment overlaps with my expectation, then we have a M.

Right now, I am getting more from my M than I have in the last 6 months, maybe more, before all this started happening. My H feels like he is finally following his own beliefs, being who he really is. You know how sometimes someone is depressed, but they've been that way for so long, that you don't realize it until they come out of it? My H has started working a lot less, going to bed earlier at night, like actually WITH me, sometimes BEFORE me! He gets up very early with me every morning and spends time talking with me. He calls me throughout the day, and IM's me when he knows I am on the computer. He doesn't work on weekends anymore, and he is taking a break from his college to support me in mine.

Ironically, since this whole thing has happened, his opportunity to chat and be with the co-worker has decreased dramatically. They used to both work late into the night, long after I'd gone to bed, working and chatting. Now, H rarely even checks in on his work at night. Before, he was so miserable at work, they would talk a lot about that. Now, he is so much happier, he rarely even takes a lunch, so he can make sure to leave on time to come home and be with the family.

He is totally open to reading M books, openly and honestly communicating, and has told me the one thing he knows for absolute 100% sure in his life, if he knows nothing else right now, is that he loves me and wants to be with me for the rest of his life. He thinks I am the most awesome person he has ever met, the best friend he will ever have, and his favorite person to spend time with.

This is not like he is sneaking behavior behind my back, lying to me, deceiving me, nothing like that. I might not like to hear it, but he is being open and honest with me. I have to say, 2 years ago when we were still separated, I would have LOVED to have honesty from him. Isn't that what we say here, about being a BS, that the worst part is the lying? I think that was the worst part for me, anyway. At least he is telling me stuff, so I can be making my own informed decisions about staying in the R or leaving.

So maybe, Mulan, we can just agree to disagree? Stay strong, pretty lady. And thanks for stopping by.

Spidey

Spidey:

"I wish I had a crystal ball, but I don't. I am just trying to not freak out and make this mess even bigger. And it is very hard to hold this space, and even harder when people play into my ego with blame and anger and righteousness. Because believe me, I have enough of all of that to go around for everyone. Just because I don't always post about it, doesn't mean I'm over here like some doormat, or Budist Monk, just happily accepting whatever H decides to do with his life. Most days, it is all I can do to not pack up his stuff and start filling out papers."

I believe I understand this completely. From first-hand experience.

But these days, I find myself far less likely 2 be contemplating tossing my W 2 the curb, but more at peace with myself - though certainly disappointed in the condition of our marriage.

The fact is, I do have 2 accept the things my W appears 2 be deciding 2 do with her life. That's entirely her choice. I'm certainly not happy about them, though. "What you resist, persists" is a favorite 2uote of Spacecase's. Really, resistance is an unpleasant alternative 2 acceptance. But acceptance and tolerance are not synonymous terms.

best,
-ol' 2long

spidey..

no matter how much you want to spin this..that statement and that belief does not equal the definition of marriage...

and you, he, I, we can't change definitions of words just to fit our feelings or thoughts...

you are spinning the fact that what he is really doing is keeping his options open to date and perhaps screw other women....

and both of your are wrapping it up in pretty paper called total honesty...

as long as he tells you about his OW...future or past...then it's NOT cheating...it's him exploring his feelings...

dangerous dangerous waters you tread..

and you choose them...
eyes wide open..
and wrap your rationale in other silly things...like plan B won't snap him..
I have NO interest in snapping him outta anything..
My total concern is saving you...and protecting you from changing more and more definition..

he might like her..
but he loves me...

it's just sex with her..
me it's making love...

the paths are endless.....

and even though you say there is no she...he has your permission to find one at any minute day or time....



call it what it is...spidey for you are NOT living a marriage you are agreeing to an open relationships..

wedding rings hold a universal symbol...
fidelity...


I would start using the word open marriage with him every change you get...

would he protest the verbage..
or gravitate to it like kids to candy..

ARK

From what I understand from H's IC, sometimes our MC, this is the state from which a decision of D should be made, if it is to ever be made. While I am still angry, in fear, and basically "all worked up," it is time for me to continue to do the work of staying, until I can make a decision either way ~ stay or go.


AMEN! I am a firm believer in the "resist persist" theory. Actually, it should be its own "Law" of the universe, like Gravity and Murphy's.

Thanks for posting, 2long. I really appreciate your POV.

Spidey

ark, I really appreciate your concern for me. I would like to say, however, that just because all of what you posted is your definition/impression of M, doesn't mean it is for the rest of the people on the planet. It happens to be very close to the way I view M, but I cannot force my H to view it the same way.

If he becomes sure of his feelings and beliefs, and chooses to act on them, he knows what the consequences will be. At this point, he is trying to figure himself out. It is just as inconvenient for me as it is for everyone here, believe me.

I can only control me, and hold my boundaries. For me, right this instant, he is working within my boundaries. When that changes, I will certainly post about it. And like I told others, if you are only wanting to try and change my course of action at this time, I think your time would be better spent with others who are actively seeking help in making their decisions. I have continued to post here because people have requested that I keep them informed of what is going on in my life.

Nobody knows what they would honestly do about ANYthing until it actually happens to them. I am so happy for everyone out there who either doesn't have infidelity enter thier M, and/or if it does, recovers and lead a life free from any other major crisis. For whatever reason, that just is not the case with me.

With this, the A (including the loss of my BF), my mother's degenerative mental illness, lack of a father and siblings ~ I often wonder why I can't seem to just "skate" for a while, have one solid thing that I can count on besides me in my life. BUT, if God doesn't give us more than we can handle, then He must think an aweful lot of me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Spidey

Spidey:

"From what I understand from H's IC, sometimes our MC, this is the state from which a decision of D should be made, if it is to ever be made."

Believe me, I realize this as well (though others will clearly disagree - so I should probably not realize it so they can be correct).

I've been married 30 years. I don't take the prospect of ending that lightly, even though that's what I may have 2 do.

-ol' 2long

Roger,Roger (you know, CB talk), I hear you Loud and Clear (more cheesy CB talk). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I would like to say, however, that just because all of what you posted is your definition/impression of M, doesn't mean it is for the rest of the people on the planet. It happens to be very close to the way I view M, but I cannot force my H to view it the same way.

spidey,,,
I didn't write the universal definition of marriage...
it stands for fidelity...
forsaking all others...
those aren't my words..
but they are probably pretty much in line with the words you spoke...

you can't force your husband do a thing..
and God knows I wouldn't tell you to try....

spidey this is marriage builders...not stay with someone who wants the option to pursue other women based on their feelings....even verbally...

you must live a life thinking today is the day he may pursue this or that one....
his step must be light and airy....


and I don't believe that for one second that God handed you that...for you to handle....

I feel bad for the future WS who will come here....and find this to be fodder for their desire to keep their wife and their OW....or the option to pursue.....always available...

ARK^^

Spidey -

All I can say is I'm extremely proud of you for not taking the some of the comments here personally. I think we all get it - you have decided not to do this the MB way.

For all intents and purposes, my marriage died on July 14, 2003, when my WH stayed out all night with the OW and came home expecting me to be fine with it. Sometimes I think I should have filed for divorce the following Monday. But I didn't.

In the meantime, I have made some changes that I know I wouldn't have made without this huge crisis in my life. It was a lonely, awful time in my life. But I always thought we would make it.

We didn't.

I suggest that you do the right thing for you. While all of this is playing out, keep making those changes on you. Work towards a good life for you and your family. I think you are strong enough to do that. I'm praying that your husband realizes what a wonderful wife he has, and will do what he needs to do to protect her. If he doesn't, you will be just fine.

ark, thank you again for posting. If you are trying to tell me that I cannot proceed with my plan and talk about it here on MB, please just come right out and say so. I have such a hard time reading between the lines sometimes.

believer, thank you. I'm not even sure I'm not doing this the MB way. Some times, when I hear people who have counseled with a Harley, I hear them say things I wouldn't expect to hear ~ like, don't separate unless it is absolutely necessary, like the WS is stepping out with the AP and such. My H is not doing that.

If he ever does, however, I will not come here to MB claiming to be the "victim." Because just like you said, believer, I will be just fine no matter what ~ that is what I learned last time.

Spidey

Spidey - I think after the first horrible betrayal, we get much stronger. I know I did. You finally realize that while it would be desirable to stay married, it is not necessary for your happiness.

For me, I will never make another man the whole reason for my being. If I ever get lucky enough to find a good one, I'll love his little head off. But he won't be the center of my world. I think that comes with the territory. We emerge from this a bit less idealistic, a bit more knowing that we are okay just like we are.

So, like I used to say to you, hang in there girl, it's gonna be a rough ride. And I have lots of confidence that you will do what you need to do.

Hey Spidey, I heard this little "story" today, and it made me think of you.
As corny as it is, I just gotta tell it...

It was a story about the eagle (as in bird, not football <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />).

the awesome, powerful... spirited... creature that the eagle is --
when coming up against a fierce wind that would defeat most anything that knows how to fly...
the eagle uses that wind, and rises even higher.........

(end of really-short-and-really-corny story :-))

Yeah, well... the point is...
I have NO doubts that you'll do the same.