Thank You, believer. You know, I have a lot of confidence in me, too. I'm not perfect, and my legs are a bit wobbly, but I do seem to be getting a much clearer picture of myself through all of this.

tqt, I love your corny little story! Thank You. I am honored that you heard a story of a mighty eagle, and thought of me. I am more inclined to associate myself with the mighty (and highly underestimated) turtle ~ slow and steady but I eventually get there kind if girl. But I'll take the full compliment, thank-you-very-much. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ultimately, that is how I choose to use the stuff that comes up in my life. I think for a short time, we all feel like victims. But if I lived in that mentality about all the unlucky breaks I've had, I think I would feel powerless in my life, like I was in a prison of misery, or something.

Anyway, chat at you all later. I must go review for a quiz.

Spidey

it's killing me that if you don't support the right to pursue friendships outside a marriage on marraigebuilders you are to be considered judgemental and cruel....

it's killing me that this is NOT the same as some BS realizing that her husband may or may not cheat and taking the don't ask don't route till the children are grown and accepting and doing their best to hang in there...

this is supporting someone CHOOSING to condone the whims and "need to find myself" ramblings of a grown man..
is that mean to say...?
that spidey you yourself say this is your choice right now...



have you read some of the stuff in your post coming from that man...
his mind games directed at you...
his need to seek out friendships in other people may stem from the fact that your marriage is content and satisfying...what a load of crap that is.....

got that right from THIS message board....

but what people are saying is that pointing out the irrationalessness of that is JUDGING>....

and then concluding that obiviously I don't like that poster....
well truth is I don't like what the soontobeWS is saying...and how like water dripping on a stone you can see the progression of changing the soontobeBS thought process to acceptance....

to continue to even engage in conversations that entertain such crap and call it honesty and open communication....is mind boggling..

yet somehow all the "rules" of this board don't apply to this poster...and in this poster we should support such thinking....

changing the defintions
changing the truth all because we don't want to judge and we like the poster..

Well I like the poster also..
get sick to my stomach to read of the path she's chosen....

and then I think of all the energy and time here spent by posters...

covered topics over and over and over and over..

why same sex friendships without boundaries in a marriage are dangerous....

why the WS can not have both the wife and OW...

etc etc etc..
but when we like the poster I guess the advice changes...
and we offer support...
for bad bad choices...

it is a BAD choice to accept a husband who verbally in the name of seeking and confusion wants to leave open the option of pursueing such friendships....he himself uses the word...polysomething or others....

and withdrawling...stopping counseling....
I predict that this time of no counseling will be viewed by the confused husband as acceptance...that all good time together is just building a foundation so that he can go out there and pounce....
and then use all this good interaction going on now to throw back in her face...see how good we can get along..
we were just happy...etc etc..just a prediction...
just an opinion....


and this has nothing to do with doing things the marriagebuilders way...THOUGH that is where we are...case anyone forgot...
it has to do with many things..

the horrible viewing of watching someone make dangerous choices...

the holding back of opinions and rational thought out of fear of being called judgemental...

the reality that other WS that come here to lament their need to have their spouse and others...may actually get support here....for if we offer it to one for accepting such a thing..should we not and must we not offer it to all....

I get it though I am BIT#$ for saying that on marriagebuilders...

I get it..
so be it...

but definitions are being changed...
thanks is offered when support if offered.....and tons of references for "not judging"...when anyone says differently...


ARK^^

^^^^^

So, ark, how do you REALLY feel? I mean, if you weren't holding anything back, or anything. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

OK, so, what are your suggestions? Plan B, kick him out? Stop all communication with him?

I have stopped doing MC with him, because I do not believe in the way he is being supported in figuring himself out. It makes me very very angry, and we spend the entire meeting with me vs. H and the MC about what is "right" and "wrong" and such.

So, now H will see this man for 25 minutes, and I will see him for 25 minutes ~ and I will be trying to figure out what I can live with, what I can't live with, and what I need to go about preparing for that.

So, what else will you have me do?

ark:

you've got mail!

(spidey: You would too, if I had an email addy - not required, though)

-Qfwfq (aka 2long)

*edited*

Spidey, forgive me for talking ABOUT you... and not TO you.

I don't agree with how Spidey's "handling" this mess. Plain and simple... I think she deserves more, and doesn't have to put up with all this crap.
She's WAY too good for this.

I also think Spidey is "enabling" her H's lousy, unacceptable behavior.

I thought Spidey should "burst his bubble" by putting her foot down and refusing to accept this situation as-is. Which probably means some sort of "Plan B" maneuver.

I also asked Spidey what "the magic bullet" would be -- what would cause/allow her to decide to stay in the M.
What would Spidey's H have to say?
"Well, Spidey, I've decided that I'm really not polyamorous after all."

Well.... THEN what?

But.......
On further thought, I think I'm full of B.S...
because if Spidey shakes things up, turns everything upside down, throws her H out in an effort to burst his bubble and wake him up and bring him back to the M...
in my mind, that's not solving or resolving anything....

Because I'm MOST concerned and confused about how Spidey can recover from this, if the M continues.
(meaning SPIDEY recover, IN the context of THE marriage)

How can anyone recover, in the true sense of the word, without trust? And by "trust" I mean... the whole works....

Not just trusting that her H won't come home some day next year and say "Spidey, we should talk... I met this woman, and...."

Trusting that she knows who he is, and trusting that HE knows who he is.

This isn't about Spidey trying to save her M.
This isn't about trying to end an A.
This isn't about Plan A or B.

The Rules... don't neatly, or conveniently, fit.

This is about 2 people going thru the depths of he11, together, trying to figure it out.
It comes down to love - whatever that means!!, and yes, attachment and dependency and everything else that naturally goes along with a long R and family/kids, et al.....

and, what two people mean to each other.

Somebody tell me where to read The Rules for all of that.

My heart breaks for her -- she doesn't deserve this.
But, my own little consolation is KNOWING Spidey will prevail, with or without her H.

What compelled me to ramble on in the first place....
while Spidey works through this... in the way that she has to, for herself...

when she comes here to tell us what's going on with her...
wouldn't compassion be a nice thing?

When is compassion NOT a nice thing?

nice, very nice tqt <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

tqt - Nice post.

I've posted to Spidey for awhile now. Since the JFO board, when a lot of us newby's were floundering around, advising each other. Maybe we're still doing that.

But I have a lot of faith in the girl.

I'm so thankful to this board and the people here. It is so soothing to come here in the midst of all of this, and talk to people who understand.

Spidey is standing for her marriage. She has fought the good fight. At this point, I think she is going to be just fine.

OK, so, what are your suggestions? Plan B, kick him out? Stop all communication with him?

No spidey...what I suggest is you set your boundary..loud strong and firm with no loop holes...


STAKE your claim that your plan is to be married to one and never ever agan become part of a triangle...certainly without your consent...and now not with either

STATE your boundary and STOP engaging in all conversations that he attemmpts to bring to you about the new EA woman or any other new women....and make it clear that you will not discuss polyamory....have no interest in polyamory and if he ACTS on his need to find himself in such a way that you will NOT be part of it..

MAKE your plan spidey the plan that if and when you find out he has or is engaged in another affair that he is gone....
make and follow it through...then put the plan in your back pocket and sleep soundly at night knowing that you are doing the right thing.....for you and the children...

thats what you should do...

this entertaining his insane ramblings about polyamory is silly...but where it gets scary is YOUR belief that it is open and honest communication and somehow that it is a GOOD thing....

it is no different than sitting down at the table with someone who steals from grannies...but as long as they tell you about stealing from grannies somehow that makes it OK and good...

REASONS WHY YOUR CURRENT PLAN WILL NEVER EVER EVER WORK

1. YOU don't believe in polyamory...if you did you would not be here...you would be on a pro-go-polyamory site...but you ain't ...you are here...and here is where the rubber meets the road...
why isn't your spouse here...because he KNOWS the truth chips away at his plan....

2. THE act of him seeing someone else in theory is way way way more different than the reality....and he will lie about the reality of his next entanglement...and I garuntee even though you believe he is being sooo honest...by the time he gives you any information about the new one he has met...it will have gone farther than he claims....

his new found honesty is really a weapon that you hand him when you give him kudos for such babble..

spidey the man told you one reason he feels like doing this is because you have created such a great marriage for him..
insanity....

spidey your condonement of this puts other innocent men and children at risk....for what if your husbands target is a married woman...do you wish this pain on them..for condoning his search of polyamory...you give him permission and peripheral fallout lays on your back as well as his...

do you want that spidey....

spidey your receptiveness to his honesty will become a tool in his tool kit to engage in such activities...
my wife and I have discussed this and she allows me to be 'friends' with others...

do you spidey
does that thought really define who you are...
it is our actions that define us...

insidiously scary is that as well for it is almost like he gets your 'permission' for he is too cowardly to do this alone....

and I am serious that I believe all this good behavior is him setting you up so that when he makes his move out there he will use this time against you....

I suggest you stop counseling with a counselor who entertains his feelings..

I suggest you call the harleys...

I suggest you tell your husband you will be counseling with the harleys....

I suggest you inform your husband you are not interested in someone who is going to ACT on polyamory....and if he does you will see it as an affair...and you will not be part of another triangle...for you did that once...and have no intention of doing so again...

and I suggest you inform your husband that you will not entertain anymore conversations about such needs to seek out others...and that it hold no interest for you for you are not interested in doing so nor in discussing....and leave it at that..and there is really nothing you can do to change his feelings so there really is no point in discussing....

don't powerstruggle
don't get mad...

make this no different than...any other important boundary issues...

read this whole post again..
it is chilling....

ARK^^

Okay, first of all, I think I have done everything that you suggested. Except for the not talking to him about it part.

Second, no offense, ark, but you cannot guarantee anything of the sort. You can predict, you can believe, you can even place a bet on it if you wish ~ but unless you have some serious powers that you haven't shared with us ~ you cannot guarantee.


I have told him this. Several times. But it is his decision to make.

As for my plan if he does follow through? We are right now, as we speak, cleaning up our financial situation so that I can stay in the house and continue to go to school full time. We are refinancing our home, and going to try and put it in my name and free up H's VA loan. I have made budgets, and I know exactly how much each month I am going to need. We have a mediator set up, so we have someone to go to to help us sette a D.

This seems like a plan to me. And I have posted about this several times before.

I know I can only control me. I do powerstruggle with him still, about his feelings, because it makes me so sad that we have come so far only to run up against this wall ~ just a few months short of our 15th anniversary. I have realized the damage this powerstruggling is doing to ME, though, which is a great lesson I learned from you last time, ark (see, I'm not totally ungrateful).

He knows I do not support a triangle. He knows I do not support him acting on polyamory. And I don't care what anyone says, I DO appreciate him being honest about his feelings. Because if he wasn't, they could have dramatically warped and changed and I could have been caught in a web of lies again ~ and Spider's only like being in their own webs, I think.

I would rather know what he is thinking, what he is doing, and be able to make my own choices about those things. Than being lied to, and not having the choice. If nothing else, at least he has left me with that.

tqt, your post warmed my heart last night. I even paraphrased it to H, telling him what wonderful and amazing friends I have here at MB, that I have not even met in person (except a couple!). Yes, that includes you believer, and ff. You girls put big smiles on my face, too.

Spidey

Spidey..

here's some of the pieces you are ignoring about this..

one is that your husband isn't saying he wants to have sex with other women...that would easy in the sense you pay someone....and have at it...

he's talking about emotinonal engagements and attachments...

what is the whole ball of wax of what affairs are made of..

he's not telling you he's interested in A women..
he's interested in the feelings and highs he gets from the whole game of courting...

he likes the endorphine high that occurs chemically in his brain....when you do, focus, and engage in the pursuit of others...

well guess what..
we all like that...it's everything that feels good dipped in chocolate...

it has nothing to do with 'finding oneself..."

there are known chemical releases in the brain when we engage in this behavior\
there are trackable changes in brain waves and patterns as tracked by MRI's of the brain...

your husband is a courting junkie...

not much different from others junkies...
this is what he is searching...although he ties it up with pretty extratranscending words.....that make it sound like some noble pursuit of self actualization...

spidey how do you respect someone with whom you are married to believe in using others to fill his needs of finding oneself...

how do you....?

and you must admit when you read this post through and your husband first introduces the word polyamory to you...you are shocked repulsed and ready to be done with the mess..

then as the post goes on there is quite a subtle change in the post...
and you start using terms likes unconditional love...

that is why I believe that long drawn out discussions with your husband are dangerous..

for him it will be seen as giving credence to his babble and condoning....

and you can get become easily confused....
(we all can)


I would rather know what he is thinking, what he is doing, and be able to make my own choices about those things. Than being lied to, and not having the choice. If nothing else, at least he has left me with that. \

you can not control his or anyone elses lying to you...

hey spidey...how about you go paraphrase my post to your husband as well..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ARK

well tqt since I assume this is addressed to me ...

here's what I don't get...
these types of word when used in describing the setting of a boundary...
these types of word that appear in my opinion to lay onus of responsibility on the spidey...(or even more dangerous other BS reading this...

because if Spidey shakes things up, turns everything upside down, throws her H out in an effort to burst his bubble and wake him up and bring him back to the M...

first of all if setting a boundary turns things upside down and shakes things up...that is the CONSEQUENCE of the WS actions...or in this case a husband who wants to seek polyamory....

setting boundaries standing up for what is right has absolutely nothing with saving a marriage...it has to do with doing the right thing...sometimes especially morally...

Because I'm MOST concerned and confused about how Spidey can recover from this, if the M continues.

be careful what you wish for..for you just might end up with a friend accepting polyamory in the name of not shaking things up and keeping a 'marriage'

This isn't about Spidey trying to save her M.
This isn't about trying to end an A.
This isn't about Plan A or B.
The Rules... don't neatly, or conveniently, fit.

why tqt why don't the rules fit...and I don't mean the A/B rules mean...I mean the rules of strong clear boundaries...
don't apply here...

It comes down to love - whatever that means!!
love is not enough tqt...sometimes often...now and then..it's just not enough..

and you can say all these really nice terms...
but his words of his pursuit to find himself...speak volumes of his ability to put himself first over any thing else....

you can't gloss the reality of what polyamory is..
you can't change what it is..

it the sucking up and using of others to fullfill needs in yourself...it's definition can not be raised to some high honorable pursuit...no matter how much we like the poster...

when she comes here to tell us what's going on with her...
wouldn't compassion be a nice thing?

well it is my objective opinion that it is not nice to condone bad choices in the name of compassion..

sometimes we call ourselves compassionate out of our own fears of being accused of being judgemental..or mean or not likable....
sometimes we are compassionate to make ourselves feel good about something that we don't agree with or condone..but we fear losing something
AND
I find it very very unfair to be referred to as judgemental...

ARK

ark....

I have been following the discussion here and I have learned a lot from your posts. Thank you. I can relate of lot of this to my situation now in hind sight. I think this polyamory may be what my H wanted, just never expressed.......

I did go on line and looked at the definitions of polyamory.....I found one where different people gave the definitions and one very common theme was that part of it is to be open and honest with all partners......

IMPO, and you all can obviously ignore me, but polyamory is just another level of selfishness and entitlement.

Daisy

***I would rather know what he is thinking, what he is doing, and be able to make my own choices about those things. Than being lied to, and not having the choice. If nothing else, at least he has left me with that.***

Spidey -- your "acceptance" or "tolerance" of your husband's wish to pursue polyamory seems based on your above statement. This is the SAME thing that every wife says when she is pushed into going along with an Open Marriage: "Well, at least he's not lying to me anymore."

Spidey, what on earth makes you think he will be honest with you about this??? Now that he's got your tacit approval to explore away, what would make him come home and give you the details of every woman he meets who tickles his fancy? Do you really, truly believe he's going to do that?

And even *if* he did, what kind of life would that be for you? Do you really want to get up every morning wondering what kind of fab new woman he's going to happily tell you about today? There's hardly a more sickening way to live, but you are saying it's okay with you as long as it's "honest".

And don't tell me he now has "no reason to lie." He has the same reason he had before: To keep you from interfering if he wants to take it farther than he thinks you would allow.

You can bet your house on this: He will lie about "polyamory" just the way he lied about monogamy. And for the same reason: To keep Spidey from spoiling his fun.

And WhiteDaisy, I agree completely with your assessment.
Mulan

well tqt since I assume this is addressed to me ...
Ark, what I wrote was to anyone who cared to read... I really wasn't thinking about any particular post/poster (poster?).

first of all if setting a boundary turns things upside down and shakes things up...that is the CONSEQUENCE of the WS actions...or in this case a husband who wants to seek polyamory....
Of course!

setting boundaries standing up for what is right has absolutely nothing with saving a marriage...it has to do with doing the right thing...sometimes especially morally...
The "setting" process and the "execution" process might well be two different things. Maybe, in a logistical sense, they're always different things.
From what Spidey has said, I get the impression that Spidey has defined (set) her boundaries.
From all that Spidey has written, it's clear to me that she's in the "execution" stage.

Because I'm MOST concerned and confused about how Spidey can recover from this, if the M continues.

be careful what you wish for..for you just might end up with a friend accepting polyamory in the name of not shaking things up and keeping a 'marriage'
Ark, I'm confused -- maybe you quoted the wrong thing(?) Not sure where in that statement I expressed my wishes(?)
What I wish for, as we all do, is for Spidey to find herself in a better place - with, or without her H.
And I never heard Spidey saying she accepted, or ever would accept, polyamory.

This isn't about Spidey trying to save her M.
This isn't about trying to end an A.
This isn't about Plan A or B.
The Rules... don't neatly, or conveniently, fit.

why tqt why don't the rules fit...and I don't mean the A/B rules mean...I mean the rules of strong clear boundaries...
don't apply here...
I was referring mostly to the Plan A/B "rules" -- because there have been calls for Spidey to invoke a Plan B (from me, also).


It comes down to love - whatever that means!!
love is not enough tqt...sometimes often...now and then..it's just not enough..
Ain't that the truth..... I know that as well as anyone... (but that wasn't all I said).

and you can say all these really nice terms...
but his words of his pursuit to find himself...speak volumes of his ability to put himself first over any thing else....
Agreed. I've said the same thing in this thread.

you can't gloss the reality of what polyamory is..
you can't change what it is..
Wouldn't try to -- but like I've also said -- I think it's B.S.


it the sucking up and using of others to fullfill needs in yourself...it's definition can not be raised to some high honorable pursuit...no matter how much we like the poster...
Ark -- "raised to some high honorable pursuit" ??? Where are you coming up with that?


when she comes here to tell us what's going on with her...
wouldn't compassion be a nice thing?

well it is my objective opinion that it is not nice to condone bad choices in the name of compassion..

sometimes we call ourselves compassionate out of our own fears of being accused of being judgemental..or mean or not likable....

sometimes we are compassionate to make ourselves feel good about something that we don't agree with or condone..but we fear losing something
Ark, with all due respect, methinks you haven't read my posts.
Or I'm just a lousy writer (no argument there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)
Or, both?

AND
I find it very very unfair to be referred to as judgemental...
I'm sure I'd feel the same way! When did that happen?

Well, peeps, this is where I bow out. Apparently, if I don't do whatever it is that some people seem to want me to do, I am not doing it right. I cannot deal with this here, as well as what is going on at home.

I have asked for specific advice, and I am doing most of what people tell me I should do. I cannot make my H do anything, unfortunately.

Coming here and reading this stuff is just putting me in dark places. Maybe I'll check back in when this has passed over.

Spidey

Sorry it came to this, Spidey. I'll check your story on the other board. Yep guys, the one that supports poly whatever.

It's passed over, Spidey.
The only specific "advice" I have came spouting out many posts ago.
("Opinion" is a more accurate term.)

Me too.

Another opinion, and a very strong one:
you should stay here, and solicit the advice of the experts.

I'll shut up, and just read.

Hang in there.

*edited*