Well WH finally wanted "to talk" last night. Usually this means "I talk, you listen" but last night there was some back and forth conversation. I will not say that it went well, I probably let too many things go by without countering them, but at least it was better than the dead silence I encountered for the last 3 months.

He talked about all the things we had talked about before, money, still accusing me of "making things up" and thinks I get all these ideas from "books I am reading." (like SAA, HNHN, LB, etc.) He also was fishing to find out how much I knew. You can't say there was real progress made, just an opening in the fog cloud, perhaps. Basically, he opened up the whole history of our marriage, and how everything was my fault. Always. It's my fault now, too. What else is new?

How dare I not trust him about money and business? (maybe because he hasn't told the truth in two years)

I told him a month ago he had two phone lines on his cell phone. He denied it again. (No, instead, he has a special "adultery phone" that I found last week.)

He claims he has not seen her in two months. (Not in a motel, perhaps, or the back seat of his truck, but they talk on cell phones twice or three times a day - sometimes for 30 min. to an hour each time.)

Still very angry about my saying something during last Monday's awards ceremony. I was supposed to pretend I didn't see him looking at her, I suppose. NOT

If we do divorce, it will have nothing to do with Curly (OW) (Yeah, right.)

Rewrote the history of our sexual life. (expected)

Did not agree to no contact, or that he would stop doing anything he is doing.

I scored a few points but I'm sure they were lost in the fog. He's probably on the phone with her right now telling her how he "set me straight."

He says it's a day to day thing whether he stays with me or not. (Like it's all his choice. NOT)

In one kind of introspective moment, he did say he would not be the one to begin a divorce, but he thought that I would.

He said he really didn't see his relationship with Curly going anywhere (that was slightly encouraging, since he is promising her marriage)I asked him why he promised to marry her then?

He said if we divorce, he will not have anywhere to go (home, business, etc.) Could be a dim ray of daylight penetrating the fog?

Basically, he was fishing for information and telling me "what for." Threats that if I continued making him mad he would react more. That he hadn't followed through before, that's why it had no effect on me. (He gave me the cold silent treatment all week. to "punish me")

He does not care whether we reconcile or not. He does not believe we can love each other again.

Steve told me to ask him to read HNHN. I didn't know that he had - he was not receptive - but he apparently did, because we talked about the needs in the book, pointing out how I had not met most of them. Actually, I agreed. And we talked a little about his meeting mine. I agreed that he mostly had. There were moments when we actually seemed to be getting somewhere. But it left most of everything my fault. Actually, affection is his #1, I think sf is a close 2nd.

My comments were mostly these:

I still love you and do not want a divorce.

I agreed with some of what he said about our earlier life.

I disagreed that all the lack of sf was my fault. It was his, too, (alcohol) but I didn't dwell on that. Nor did I bring up some other things about that which I might be able to bring up later. I didn't feel the time was right last night.

I didn't reverse babble except for a couple of times. It's hard for me to do in a moment of crisis, such as this one. I guess I just don't think that fast. Because it was a fairly serious relationship talk, which was begun by him, I treated it in a fairly serious manner.

I stated that many marriages had recovered from something such as this, and I thought ours could too, if we both wanted it. He was not helpful here - wasn't sure if he wanted it or not.

I pointed out many improvements I had made in myself and asked if he was aware of them. It had little effect. (He didn't want to see anything good in me)

I did restate that although he wasn't "seeing her" any more that talking to her on the phone was contact and that nothing could be done to save our marriage until he completely broke contact with her.

I can't remember everything I said, but if more comes to my mind I will post it.

I feel I did not stick up for myself enough, but I did not LB. Maybe I left the door open for further discussion at a later time. The overall impression at the end of the conversation was that I was on trial - either be a perfect wife or he will leave. And he doesn't believe I can be a "perfect wife" whatever that is. He said he had his limits. Certain lines I am not to cross. I did not really have the opportunity to rebut this but I did state that I had boundaries, too. Did not get to elaborate, but did restate no contact and that I did not want a divorce.

Once again, he is trying to scare me off from trying to end the affair. Not gonna happen.

Starz - HE HAS HIS LIMITS????????????????????????Next time you have something hilarious to say, please post a warning. I blew my coffee out my nose all over the screen. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Time to stop talking relationship with him and put him on the back burner. All he is doing is blaming you.

Move on with your life. Make your home wonderful and pleasant. Go out with friends. Use Ark's suggestions. Your husband is quite fogged out and is not going to be of much help at this point.

I decided to make my life a good one, with or without WH - it turned out to be without, and that is okay too.

starz...

you need to go to plan B...

you need to remove yourself from his chaos...

he will
does
and plans on continueing making you the root of all evil...

and unless you opt out of his line of fire and his blame machine...
no matter what you do or don't do
say or don't say
act or don't act
you will be to blame...

plan B removes you from ALL of that...
and though his blame and ranting and escalate at first...

it is the only way for him to face whom he fears the most...

himself....

continuing to go this perpetual-alter-of-you-are-to-blame-for-his-every-waking-moment.....

keeps him from ever looking in the mirror...

time to change your language...
time to be soooooooooooooooo not interested in continuing in a marriage with an adulterer...

that's what you are doing now....

and he will either decide to change or not...
but you will no longer be part of that equasion...

ark

starz,

I am so sorry....
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
it sounds like he really "laid down the law to you" all disguised under wanting "to talk".

So ...what are your plans?

What are YOU going to do to change the unacceptable situation you are living in?

I feel I did not stick up for myself enough, but I did not LB. Maybe I left the door open for further discussion at a later time. The overall impression at the end of the conversation was that I was on trial - either be a perfect wife or he will leave.

There will be further discussion...the next time YOU get out of line. Out of line means...telling him that a relationship with Curly is not acceptable to you.

He is really telling you to like it or leave it. He is also telling you that he can AND will do whatever he wants and you have ZERO say over it. If you think that you do, you are in BIG trouble because he will leave YOU. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I got news for you starz...he has already LEFT. He just hasn't LEFT the building.

Again, I am so sorry that you have this in your life.

committed

Absolutely ! Plan B his @ss.

You deserve better Starz. MUCH better.

This is when YOUR integrity comes to the test.

So far .... YOU have willingly been a part of an affair love triangle. Not a triangle to your liking, but you are willing to stay in the triangle. (Mostly while you try and figure things out... not to rush to a hasty solution)

Enough time has passed .... Either this arrangement is "OK" with you, or it is not.

You choose.

This triangle will last as long as you remain willing to be a part of it.

If you choose to remain in the affair triangle, you forfet your ability to effectively complain that an affair triangle is morally unacceptable.

Hence, your integrity comes to the test.

Pep

<small>[ December 13, 2004, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by starz:
The overall impression at the end of the conversation was that I was on trial - either be a perfect wife or he will leave. And he doesn't believe I can be a "perfect wife" whatever that is. He said he had his limits. Certain lines I am not to cross. I did not really have the opportunity to rebut this but I did state that I had boundaries, too. Did not get to elaborate, but did restate no contact and that I did not want a divorce.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He has limits? My gosh. What about the betrayal, lying, cheating, and all the other crap he's done to you. Talk about going beyond "limits".

Arggg it just makes me mad. Sounds like you are handling it as well as can be expected though...

Hang in there!

Miker

Starz: Your situation seems so much more complicated than others. I'm sorry I don't really have any advice for you other than, you have a plan, right? I'm not talking about Plan A, but a series of events that you're looking at that you will implement in your own time?

He said he had his limits. Certain lines I am not to cross. I did not really have the opportunity to rebut this but I did state that I had boundaries, too. Did not get to elaborate, but did restate no contact and that I did not want a divorce.

Sounds like your boundary has been compromised with his still being in contact. What would be your next course of action to protect that boundary?

You do not want a divorce and I can imagine that he does not "want" one either. He just wants to be able to stay in a marriage and have a mistress at the same time. He threatens to breach that boundary of yours IF you make waves about the mistress. He likes it the way that it is ...all his comforts are seen to...by TWO women, and all he has to do is to threaten you with divorce and you back off from making waves?

It IS within your power to take control of this situation...take control of YOU. He wants a wife and a mistress...remove the wife since you cannot remove the mistress.

Until you make a believer out of him...in that you will NOT accept this in your life, he is going to continue. There is no reason for it to stop...because there are no consequences.


Once again, he is trying to scare me off from trying to end the affair. Not gonna happen.

Exposure? Have you done that?

committed

Thanks, everyone. I didn't include earlier a kind of gut feeling I had that the A may be nearing its end. They are not getting together physically, and the comment he made about he doesn't see his R with Curly going anywhere makes me think he sees a future without her. Now maybe I'm wrong - I certainly have been most of the time so far. He also said that he will not be the one to divorce me, that he thinks I will be the one to divorce him. ???

I made an appointment with Steve for Friday morning. REAL early. H will be gone with S on a hunting trip so I can talk privately at my convenience. I will try to relay to Steve all these things and see what his advice is.

I guess where I see a slight bit of hope opening, you who are more experienced see none. I certainly think you have seen way more of this than I have (of course)and that is sobering to me. Perhaps there is no hope, I don't know. But I don't have the feeling that God is ready for me to give up yet. I realize that to you Plan B is not a "giving up" thing, but it feels that way to me. I am not convinced that I have done a good enough Plan A yet.

I am so torn, and confused. I have (like everyone else on this board) been through so much pain and unhappiness lately that I am not sure I am able to see things objectively any more.

That's why I post here. Thank you for showing me objectivity when I have none.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I realize that to you Plan B is not a "giving up" thing, but it feels that way to me. I am not convinced that I have done a good enough Plan A yet.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is a time when you have to realize that Plan B might be the ONLY thing that does save your marriage. Are you willing to toss that away?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Enough time has passed .... Either this arrangement is "OK" with you, or it is not.

You choose.

This triangle will last as long as you remain willing to be a part of it.

If you choose to remain in the affair triangle, you forfet your ability to effectively complain that an affair triangle is morally unacceptable. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That quote is worth reading again.

Your INACTION is telling him that it ok...and that you accept it. When he wants to "talk", he is once again laying out the game rules...and you had better get used to it...and stop complaining.


JMHO
committed

Thank you all.

He said you weren't meeting his needs and you said he was meeting yours? That doesn't sound right. Not to these ol ears. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Nope sounds like fog babble on both sides. From what you posted, I see him still trying to put the blame on you and that's not meeting any needs. In fact he should get penalized for attempting to rewrite history!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Review your post again and see if you can see a clearer picture. I am not saying there isn't progress, I am seeing that he is still a xws leaning back in the WS direction. Hm...... gotta think about that as far as progress or not.

My question to you is: How safe do you feel with this type of treatment?

BTW, when a WS reads HN/HN they often try to twist it also. But if you get the hardbound copy he will find it hard to bend the A way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

Orchid, I did buy the hardbound copy and would like to use it up side his head!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think I did not explain well enough in my earlier post. When we were going through HNHN, it was in relation to what our marriage had been for the past 30 years, not right now. He was a wonderful husband - he met ALL my emotional needs. Now, of course, he is meeting none of them. That goes without saying.

When it came to me, however, he felt that I had met 2 out of the 5 - I thought I had met only 1 out of the five - so his opinion was actually higher than mine. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

He is not an xwh at all - the affair continues and has only slowed down due to my exposure and continued watchfulness. They are having to hide more and more from her husband and from me as a result of the exposure. They are not meeting physically in motels or whatever any more because they know they are being watched. I don't know what that means, if anything. It is still VERY much an emotional affair right now even without physical contact. or very little, whatever.

Thanks for the clarification. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Seems I have been asking for a lot of clarification on this board lately so don't feel picked on. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Well given your recent post that he is still a WS instead of an Xws, then where do you think you s/b?

As for his meeting your needs, those comments s/b current. His past good behavior is not a + it is a requirement. He doesn't get any kudos for having 'been' a good H. He should get cooties for being a WS. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

You are probably meeting more of his needs than both of you realize. Only you can tell (with a deep soui searching analysis).

Based on this, it looks like a prime time to give him over to the OW and let her meet all his needs. Yep even folding his underwear. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Plan B seems to be what is screaming out in this thread.

Think about it Starz. That is what I had t/d. Plan B isn't as bad as it seems. In fact it is sort of the disinfectant the M needs to clean up the stinkin' mess.

JMHO,
L.

Orchid, I did buy the hardbound copy and would like to use it up side his head!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think I did not explain well enough in my earlier post. When we were going through HNHN, it was in relation to what our marriage had been for the past 30 years, not right now. He was a wonderful husband - he met ALL my emotional needs. Now, of course, he is meeting none of them. That goes without saying.

When it came to me, however, he felt that I had met 2 out of the 5 - I thought I had met only 1 out of the five - so his opinion was actually higher than mine. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> In the past few years, I did not do a good job of being his wife. He is absolutely correct and I agreed with him. I didn't know until I read HNHN what a lousy job I had done. Now he believes it is too late. He may be right, as that decision is his to make. But I made it clear that even if over 50% of the problems pre-A were mine, he had 100% of the responsibility for this affair and all the hurt it has caused to so many people.

Yes, it was fogbabble of the highest order - straight from the mother ship to my ears - but there was truth in some of it. I can only hope that finally talking about it will help, not hurt.

He is not an xwh at all - the affair continues and has only slowed down due to my exposure and continued watchfulness by myself and her H. They are having to hide more and more from her husband and from me as a result of the exposure. They are not meeting physically in motels or whatever any more because they know they are being watched. I don't know what that means, if anything. It is still VERY much an emotional affair right now even without physical contact. or very little, whatever. I did not get any indication that he was willing to even consider ending the R - except for the feeling I have that some of the exposure has made it less fun for them, and it has been a little over 2 years, I believe, both the EA and PA. I understand that is sometimes the point at which the A begins to fade somewhat. The comment he made about the R not going anywhere is the first glimmer of hope I have had yet. Although I fully discovered the A in May, I had heavily suspected since Sept and October of 2003. I gathered absolute proof for almost 4 months before exposure.

I am sorry I don't post clearly. Maybe I will get better. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />


I am privy to many messages and conversations between them and know what they are saying. "When we can be together again" and "When this is legal" and "I am ready to make a commitment to you for the rest of my life."

However, when he said last night that he didn't think his R with her would ever go anywhere, I asked him why he told her he would marry her? I think he was surprised that I knew.

Toward the end of our conversation, he said that he would probably never divorce me. But that he thought I would divorce him. That's because he knows I have been securing myself financially, and that I have a lawyer, and because he knows I have lots of evidence. I do. But I do not plan to EVER come forward with the evidence if the marriage can be saved. That is my number one priority.

I know I am pitiful to keep looking for glimmers of hope, but isn't what this is all about? Keeping the faith, continuing to try to save the marriage? That's why I am here. Every day I try to learn something new on this site that I can use for that purpose, and I have read every book I can get my hands on.

You want my take on his position? He has his face in the sand and asking you to breathe for him! Howz that for dumb? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Ok, now for the real stuff. Here's my other take:

1. He says he will never D you. That's somewhat hopeful but it won't last for long in that at this rate, you will D him if he doesn't change his position. 180 completelty.

2. You are securing your financial future and your emotional/mental future is working it's way through personal recovery. This is good, for you....not for the WS and he knows it. It is good for your H if he should ever decide to show up.

Given the above, there is hope but each day he delays the less it becomes not for him but from your side.

Now that is to your advantage. You need to continue strengthening yourself. Often by the time the WS straightens up the BS is waaay ahead due to their dilligence of personal recovery.

A stronger but quieter BS (one who makes slow but steady progress - periodic LBs are ok - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), is in a better position to decide if they want to help a revised xws to come back to the sane world. That's when recovery can be put back on the family's plate. But that will then be your decision. Feel empowered? You s/b. The tides of the A is changing. Be patient. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Either way it goes, you will be the one on top. I know you don't feel that way but you already are. Right now what you are standing on or for is a bit shakey at best so you don't feel so sure footed but you w/b ok.

take care,
L.